Why does Rail recruitment take so long?

[OliverReed]

A mate of mine has just joined another TOC as a guard. He’s already safety critical. The process has taken over 7 months. Talking to some new starters it appears with talent pools etc. recruitment took close to 18 months.

I have a family friend who is in the Foreign & commonwealth office as a diplomatic aide. Her entire recruitment including top level security clearances took just 5 months.

Am I missing something or a the HR depts of most TOC’s incredibly wasteful? Back when I started I had the first interview in Feb and was training by the beginning of April. Why does it take so long?

 

[PupCuff]

Quite simply railway recruitment departments are often woefully underresourced. At my last TOC the recruitment team was, at the worst, one part time staff member, and at best, two full time staff members. Accounting for annual leave, having to lodge over to facilitate recruitment events at remote depots, waiting on line managers to decide who they want to recruit, waiting for confirmation of training courses from training teams, there's a limit to the number of hours in the day.

 

[ComUtoR]

A mate of mine has just joined another TOC as a guard. He’s already safety critical. The process has taken over 7 months. Talking to some new starters it appears with talent pools etc. recruitment took close to 18 months.

I have a family friend who is in the Foreign & commonwealth office as a diplomatic aide. Her entire recruitment including top level security clearances took just 5 months.

How many applicants applied for Diplomatic aide compared to applicants for Train Driver. Three digit applications are not unheard of.

Am I missing something or a the HR depts of most TOC’s incredibly wasteful?

What do you mean by wasteful ?

Why does it take so long?

Currently at my TOC the recruitment has changed quite dramatically. Covid had a major impact and now financial constraints and an uncertain future has also had an impact. Jobs that were there last your are now no longer available and courses that were booked have been cancelled. Currently the railway is in flux; which just exacerbates things more.

 

[20atthemagnet]

To add, there is a common misconception that when a TOC advertises a job that they need that position filled immediately. Which is nearly never the case. Its not uncommon for companies to start head hunting early with retirements or natural progression projected in the next 1,2 sometimes even as much as three years. Often there arent any vacancies at the time of posting and its a case of waiting until the above scenario unfolds, and if it doesnt in the projected time frame you could be waiting even longer.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

To add, there is a common misconception that when a TOC advertises a job that they need that position filled immediately. Which is nearly never the case. Its not uncommon for companies to start head hunting early with retirements or natural progression projected in the next 1,2 sometimes even as much as three years. Often there arent any vacancies at the time of posting and its a case of waiting until the above scenario unfolds, and if it doesnt in the projected time frame you could be waiting even longer.

Indeed, this I think is the most common 'issue'. Most vacancies these days are listed as the year's intake, so if they run 4 courses in that year you could very easily apply 12-16 months prior to start date. And that's just until start date, we have drivers who have again been stood down while awaiting free DIs who joined September 2021

 

[Horizon22]

A very small amount of recruitment / resourcing personnel compared to the sheer number of applicants (often 100+). They are dramatically understaffed. So not wasteful really, just overworked. They also don't help with overuse of the word "soon" or "in the coming weeks", or worse vague timelines on updates!

Then the multiple processes of applications like train driver & guard can take time as you have to wait for hundreds of even thousands of people to pass / be sifted through before going onto the next stage.

Then you've got rely on multiple hiring managers to make their decisions too. Plus there are often changes to where people are needed (especially during and after Covid with headcounts / salaries etc.), and adverts aren't always posted for immediate vacnacies. In addition - due to the general lack of staff - talent pools turn more into a stagnant pond and people are left there for some time.

So overall, there are a lot of issues!

 

[Sly Sloth]

There’s very little consistency…. I’ve known somebody who waited 7 years in a talent pool for a trainee driver position! And I knew a chap that went from application to start date in 5 weeks! It’s a magical mystery how they operate!!

 

[sleeperguy]

I've found it varies massively between TOCs, probably depending on staffing levels and how urgent they need to fill the positions as other have said.

On one application it was about 8 weeks from initial sift to being talent pooled, including some extra stages that other TOCs don't have. On others, it's been longer than that to even hear back from the initial application.

 

[43066]

Another big thing affecting it is availability of space on training courses - especially drivers and guards rules. For example where I learned it was eight per course, with the class room stage lasting around four months, roughly three or four courses running at a time so just over 30 max could be accommodated. You can’t easily scale that kind of training up due to space and staffing constraints.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2022 ==

There’s very little consistency…. I’ve known somebody who waited 7 years in a talent pool for a trainee driver position!

Must admit I didn’t think that was possible, don't the assessments time out after a while?

EDIT: from a quick google search they last for five years max, so at that point you’d have to take the tests again or (more likely) go back to square one and have to apply again. I know that happened with some VTEC (as was) applicants who were never offered jobs from the talent pool.

 

[Horizon22]

Another big thing affecting it is availability of space on training courses - especially drivers and guards rules. For example where I learned it was eight per course, with the class room stage lasting around four months, roughly three or four courses running at a time so just over 30 max could be accommodated. You can’t easily scale that kind of training up due to space and staffing constraints.

No doubt Covid social distancing also had a part to play in 2020/2021.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I don't necessarily think it's just the rail industry where recruitment is slow.

New trainee police officers can wait anything between 6-18 months to start in their new roles - this is often down to the vetting process and background checks which can be very time consuming.

One of my friend's is due to start a role with the civil service next month - I believe he originally applied last summer and did his interview in January.

CJ

 

[skyhigh]

Must admit I didn’t think that was possible, don't the assessments time out after a while?

EDIT: from a quick google search they last for five years max, so at that point you’d have to take the tests again or (more likely) go back to square one and have to apply again. I know that happened with some VTEC (as was) applicants who were never offered jobs from the talent pool.

The psychometrics results are valid for a max of 5 years, however some TOCs may reduce that to as low as 3 years (I haven't heard of any lower!). However places in the pool may also have an expiry date - I know for my TOC if you don't get a start date within 9 months of passing all tests your application expires.

 

[Fratton Guard?]

SWR is three years for psychometrics, and re-interview if no job offer after 6 months

 

[Snow1964]

No doubt Covid social distancing also had a part to play in 2020/2021.

To some extent yes, but it is not exactly impossible to find a room/classroom that can hold a dozen even at 2m distance.

Whilst practical training was difficult to do, the excuse is weak in regards to theory training.

But it’s history now as social distancing was dropped some time ago, so can have 100+ in a lecture hall nowadays if need to catch up.

 

[dk1]

No doubt Covid social distancing also had a part to play in 2020/2021.

Some allowed that to happen whereas others just got on with it & continued training safely.

 

[Horizon22]

To some extent yes, but it is not exactly impossible to find a room/classroom that can hold a dozen even at 2m distance.

Whilst practical training was difficult to do, the excuse is weak in regards to theory training.

Some allowed that to happen whereas others just got on with it & continued training safely.

I'm sure they did, but even classroom training might have been delayed to some extent, as were many things at the time. I don't think it played a major role, but a part (in addition to the other reasons I mentioned previously).

 

[43066]

But it’s history now as social distancing was dropped some time ago, so can have 100+ in a lecture hall nowadays if need to catch up.

There’s still a backlog from when it was an issue because training was certainly stopped for a while at most places. 100+ in a lecture hall isn’t going to happen as the training is designed to be delivered in small group fashion.

DIs weren’t out with trainees for weeks and months at many TOCs (I’m not commenting on whether that’s right or wrong, but it is a factor). Those trainees will therefore be months behind with the commensurate knock on effect.

 

[Horizon22]

A general shortage of drivers wanting to be DIs (at certain TOCs) is also something of a bottleneck to driver's passing out, although this is a little downstream of the actual recruitment process.

 

[43066]

A general shortage of drivers wanting to be DIs (at certain TOCs) is also something of a bottleneck to driver's passing out, although this is a little downstream of the actual recruitment process.

Yes indeed. Quite a few DIs also jacked it in over Covid and haven’t restarted.

 

[wobman]

To some extent yes, but it is not exactly impossible to find a room/classroom that can hold a dozen even at 2m distance.

Whilst practical training was difficult to do, the excuse is weak in regards to theory training.

But it’s history now as social distancing was dropped some time ago, so can have 100+ in a lecture hall nowadays if need to catch up.

I know of at least 50% of trainers getting covid at one training dept and that's why during covid the training went online, online training is nowhere near as good as classroom training for trainee drivers. Having 100 in a lecture hall is not feasible for trainee drivers, the courses are intense and its difficult having the courses in small groups.

 

[wobman]

Yes indeed. Quite a few DIs also jacked it in over Covid and haven’t restarted.

Lots of tocs are struggling for DIs and I know many that have gave up the role as its not worth the hassle.

 

[Red Devil]

D

Lots of tocs are struggling for DIs and I know many that have gave up the role as its not worth the hassle.

DI myself, just got a trainee with me who's been waiting nearly 3yrs for an instructor another 12 still waiting. Probably be my last one,thinking of jacking it in, difference between instructor and business link driver at our place is £20 something per week. Just not worth it for the stress and blot on my driving record should anything go wrong.

 

[dk1]

D

DI myself, just got a trainee with me who's been waiting nearly 3yrs for an instructor another 12 still waiting. Probably be my last one,thinking of jacking it in, difference between instructor and business link driver at our place is £20 something per week. Just not worth it for the stress and blot on my driving record should anything go wrong.

Three years, that’s absolutely crazy. We only stopped for around three months if that right at the very start of the pandemic. Works out around £50 a week for me but more than worth it for the in cab company most of the time & for the other perks that go with doing DI stuff.

 

[wobman]

D

DI myself, just got a trainee with me who's been waiting nearly 3yrs for an instructor another 12 still waiting. Probably be my last one,thinking of jacking it in, difference between instructor and business link driver at our place is £20 something per week. Just not worth it for the stress and blot on my driving record should anything go wrong.

I gave it up for the same reason, plus at certain tocs the DI training is poor to be polite about it. I didn't like the way things were going personally with the training aswell, so to avoid the stress and hassle I gave the Di role up. I feel better now after my decision.....

 

[Red Devil]

Three years, that’s absolutely crazy. We only stopped for around three months if that right at the very start of the pandemic. Works out around £50 a week for me but more than worth it for the in cab company most of the time & for the other perks that go with doing DI stuff.

It used to be around 3k difference until a couple of years ago until a pay deal left us in the current situation

 

[wobman]

It used to be around 3k difference until a couple of years ago until a pay deal left us in the current situation

It's not worth the money for me if i do a rest day thst covers it, plus we had 20 trainees sitting at home at one stage. Some had 2yrs sitting at home so it was start again for then, plus traction courses taught solely online ! The only practical handling was on a sim, it's not getting much better now as they are training over 20 trainees more this year.....

 

[dk1]

It used to be around 3k difference until a couple of years ago until a pay deal left us in the current situation

That’s not good. The £50 weekly is us Anglia DIs, those on West Anglia get more than that a day but only get it when training whereas we get it even if we do nothing for 6 months. Not sure about Great Eastern DIs.

 

[AntoniC]

I don't necessarily think it's just the rail industry where recruitment is slow.

New trainee police officers can wait anything between 6-18 months to start in their new roles - this is often down to the vetting process and background checks which can be very time consuming.

One of my friend's is due to start a role with the civil service next month - I believe he originally applied last summer and did his interview in January.

CJ

Thats quick for the Civil Service ! (I should know I work for the Civil Service !).

 

[Red Devil]

That’s not good. The £50 weekly is us Anglia DIs, those on West Anglia get more than that a day but only get it when training whereas we get it even if we do nothing for 6 months. Not sure about Great Eastern DIs.

No, it isn't mate. They struggle to recruit DI's at our depot. I can't think why