Why does no one hate First?

[ajdunlop]

A bit of a provocative title but thought I would parallel the 'Why does everyone hate XC' thread.

I was thinking to myself while reading the XC thread, there seems to be loads of bad jip against XC but why on these forums is there not the same hate for First.
Now let me clarify something... when I say First I mean proper First, i.e. those rail companies completely owned by First. I say this because I think the best First branded TOC is First TransPennine Express but this is 45% owned by Keolis (forgive me I have very little experience of ScotRail maybe it's better).

I also realise that a lot of people who travel with First are in the HSTs for which there is a lot of nostalgia and good things to be said for them. But come on they will have to be retired someday.

My experience of First has meanly been along the Wessex Main Line and quite frankly is appalling. They seem to cut as many corners as possible. Stations are maintained to the bare minimum, trains are over crowed (and the last time they did anything about capacity was when their franchise ownership was threatened by the government a couple of years ago), cleaning of trains leave a lot to be desired (SWT's class 158s are usually spotless and everything works which is rare on FGW's), punctuality is very poor (trains usually always 5mins late and very regularly more) and the staff are very variable (some hide away in overcrowding some are out there in the thick of it helping passengers and sympathising with them).

Now I have heard rummers of some station investment along this line soon and that FGW have shown interest in new trains along this route (172s I think) but I just get this feeling that all they care about is max profit least effort rather than improving the service to attract more passengers (which will eventually lead to more profit still).

Also I wont go into how shocking FCC is, there are many more people on here with first hand experience of that fiasco.

So what do you think? Do you agree or am i being to harsh or is it that First were dealt a bad hand in terms of the age of trains and the challenge of the routes?

 

[Fred26]

Also I wont go into how shocking FCC is, there are many more people on here with first hand experience of that fiasco.

So what do you think? Do you agree or am i being to harsh or is it that First were dealt a bad hand in terms of the age of trains and the challenge of the routes?

I disagree with the above.
True, the Thameslink side is a daily shambles, but that's not necessarily the fault of FCC. Would any other TOC be able to do better with a route with conflicting movements (south of the river) and limited capacity through the core? Thankfully, I don't live or work on that line, but I imagine the staff there must get it in the neck from passengers everyday.
However, on the Great Northern side of the franchise, I think FCC do a decent job. The PA's are truly awful at the moment, but the service is generally good and is something that can be relied upon. Indeed, the service will improve with the new timetable, as extra rolling stock will provide longer trains and additional services.

There will always be more that the TOC's can do to improve, but I think FCC do, largely, what they can.
It's become fashionable for people to have a go at FCC without being able to distinguish between Thameslink and GN (not so much on here). It's a shame the two were ever lumped together, but there you go. For a balanced, if irrational view of the differences between Thameslink and GN, look at the unofficial FCC message board. Nearly all the messages are from passengers of the Thameslink route - that's because most GN passengers are relatively happy.

I haven't got a least favourite TOC, or even a favourite. I've never really had any bad experiences - certainly not any that would make me hate a TOC.

 

[tbtc]

In fairness to First, they are a lot better at running trains than they are at running buses, but that's not saying much...

There are parallels between the 185s and Voyagers. Both were ordered too short, partly due to DFT interference, and now cannot be lengthened. Yet the general opinion amongst enthusiasts is to blame Virgin/Arriva for the short Voyagers, but to absolve First of blame for the short 185s. Maybe its not a perfectly comparable situation, but its interesting to compare the reactions to different TOCs

First are doing a good job of running ScotRail, but this owes a lot to National Express introducing new trains/ doubling frequencies and the brilliant level of state support (investing in new lines/ stations).

Thameslink (sorry, FCC) seems to be at the whim of reorganisation - certainly a lot of the chaos seems short term and will be rectified once the new units are introduced/ additional services through the "core" section.

I suppose what I'm saying is that First seem dependant upon the level of investment (or lack of), much like their buses where they have lots of modern buses and good passenger levels in areas with state subsidies, but struggle in areas where they have to make do without council investment (e.g. in Sheffield we have plenty 08/58 reg buses on "Quality Partnership" routes, but its been about eight years since we've had - and kept- new buses in the rest of Sheffield).

They look good if they have state money propping them up, but less so elsewhere.

Hull Trains was building on the back of an existing success story, so there's not a lot to say about First's involvement

 

[rail-britain]

In general First has improved things from a previous operator
In the case of XC they made things worse, so much so that they are now being routinely fined by the DfT for failure to meet even basic targets

As far as I am aware First have never been fined
Although ScotRail is fined by TS under squire, but the criteria is quite different when compared to other franchises across Britain (and quite unfairly as the other operators in Scotland are not fined even when operating on the same route)

The main issues will arise as time goes by and First retain a franchise or acquire other previously poorly performing franchises

 

[Fred26]

Thameslink (sorry, FCC) seems to be at the whim of reorganisation - certainly a lot of the chaos seems short term and will be rectified once the new units are introduced/ additional services through the "core" section.

Any idea on what the maximum capacity (one-way) through the core, per hour is?

 

[tbtc]

It's become fashionable for people to have a go at FCC without being able to distinguish between Thameslink and GN (not so much on here). It's a shame the two were ever lumped together

If the Grand Northern services are diverted to the Thameslink tunnel presumably this will only happen well after the end of the current franchise, so there's no real "benefit" to having the two as part of one franchise (other than because Great Northern would be too small to run as a "stand alone" franchise)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any idea on what the maximum capacity (one-way) through the core, per hour is?

Supposedly up to twenty four trains an hour in each direction, with twelve coach trains.

However, what the off-peak frequency will be (in terms of services and length) is unknown.

From what I've read the trains will drive themselves in the central section, but I still can't work out how they'll decellerate/ stop/ unload/ load/ accelerate without being caught by the trains behind/ catching the trains in front

(it might work on the London Underground, where almost everyone will want the next train, but on Thameslink you'll have people waiting for the Brighton service who don't want to get onto the Kent service, meaning the platforms will have awkward groups of people shuffling around)

 

[Fred26]

I think the idea of running GN services through the core is quite terrifying. I like it in theory, but I can't see it working without four-tracking the core.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Supposedly up to twenty four trains an hour in each direction, with twelve coach trains.

However, what the off-peak frequency will be (in terms of services and length) is unknown.

From what I've read the trains will drive themselves in the central section, but I still can't work out how they'll decellerate/ stop/ unload/ load/ accelerate without being caught by the trains behind/ catching the trains in front

(it might work on the London Underground, where almost everyone will want the next train, but on Thameslink you'll have people waiting for the Brighton service who don't want to get onto the Kent service, meaning the platforms will have awkward groups of people shuffling around)

It'd be quite handy for St Pancras to Blackfriars, but twenty-four an hour? Christ. That's every 2.5 minutes...

 

[me123]

Well, to answer the OPs question, I've seen a lot of hate directed at First Group on this and on other forums!

I've never experienced FCC, so I can't comment. But Scotrail seems to win "franchise of the year" or something similar each and every year. TPE is doing really well, and also has high approval ratings. And FGW really seems to have turned itself around in recent years (again, I've never been on the GW trains, but I've heard that things have gotten much better down that way, although Wessex Mainline is still obviously an issue).

 

[ainsworth74]

I would echo me123 above, you do see some hate but on the whole First are a pretty good operator. TPE were TOC of the year this year and Scotrail are also really good. No real complaints with Hull Trains other than I wish they would hurry up with the internal refurb! FCC certainly from what I've heard on here have their problems, whilst FGW have turned things around down there over the past few years very successfully.

So out of 5 franchises, 2 are very good, 2 ok and 1 has problems. Not bad going in my view.

 

[rail-britain]

Scotrail seems to win "franchise of the year" or something similar each and every year

As a business passenger I have not had a reason to complain, yet
All of the trains I planned to travel on have run, plus all but one of these were within 10 minutes of advertised time

However, as a leisure passenger I seem to complain quite regularly
When I started using services between Glasgow and Cumbernauld these were operated by Class 170
These units are now operating on the Alloa services
Services between Glasgow - Cumbernauld / Falkirk are now operated by Class 156 and 158
It feels like a step back to the 1990s

Even on the sleeper, the lounge cars now look tired
The brake noise in the Mark 2 coaches is no longer acceptable for such a service
However, out of the ten services I used last year only one was severely late, resulting in a full refund

 

[37402]

The brake noise in the Mark 2 coaches is no longer acceptable for such a service.

I think they'd agree with you too, but there is no other option short of new build stock or reducing capacity on the train.

 

[imagination]

As someone whose parents live in fgw territory and who is at university in First Scotrail territory, I must say that the reason I don't complain about first is that they do a damn good job.

Yes I have heard that FGW has other areas that have had serious problems, but the thames valley area (that which I have lots of experience of) to me has always seemed to be as well run as is reasonably possible.

But then again I'm not someone who criticises firms for the service they provide much - although if they ARE doing what I perceive to be a bad job (usually if they take a decision that only serves to make the situation far worse than beforehand, or if they actively try to deceive people, or if they habitually break the law) then I can become very critical of them indeed...

 

[37 418]

I wouldn't say I hate First but, I would'nt say I like them either!

They were certainly better than NX for ScotRail but, there's a long way to go yet.

There's still crowded trains on the lines in/out of Aberdeen and train toilets generally are awful!

The Turbostars are generally unsuitable for most work in Scotland as they have no corridor connections so trains can't be lengthened successfully. They should be all rebuilt with corridor connections in my opinion!

As for paralling Xc with First, this can really only be done with certain First routes/franchises.

 

[Aictos]

Now while I do not agree with some of FCC actions such as reduced opening hours at some booking offices, I do back their proposals to introduce more seats on both routes, reopen more facilities such as toilets, waiting rooms, introduce more car park spaces etc...

On the whole I have used all First companies and have no reason to complain, trains were on time and clean with the staff being helpful.

And no First hasn't bribed me to release such statement, I'm perfectly happy working for FCC.

 

[me123]

When I started using services between Glasgow and Cumbernauld these were operated by Class 170
These units are now operating on the Alloa services
Services between Glasgow - Cumbernauld / Falkirk are now operated by Class 156 and 158
It feels like a step back to the 1990s

Diddums
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They were certainly better than NX for ScotRail but, there's a long way to go yet.

There's still crowded trains on the lines in/out of Aberdeen and train toilets generally are awful!

The Turbostars are generally unsuitable for most work in Scotland as they have no corridor connections so trains can't be lengthened successfully. They should be all rebuilt with corridor connections in my opinion!

I haven't been up to Aberdeen in the rush hour, but I've heard that some North East strengthening is needed. Of course, a lot of the reason the North East isn't getting the longer trains is because they're needed in Glasgow and Edinburgh!

As for Turbostars being unsuitable, I'd disagree entirely. They do an absolutely fine job on both the short routes (such as those to Cumbernauld and Anniesland that they do relatively infrequently) and the longer routes to the North. They're comfortable and reliable, and very versatile. I have no problem with them whatsoever. Although corridor connections would have been nice, I wouldn't go and waste money putting them on for the sake of it. And, besides, almost everything that's "wrong" with the Turbostars is nothing to do with FirstGroup anyway!

 

[WestCoast]

Originally Posted by rail-britain View Post
When I started using services between Glasgow and Cumbernauld these were operated by Class 170
These units are now operating on the Alloa services
Services between Glasgow - Cumbernauld / Falkirk are now operated by Class 156 and 158
It feels like a step back to the 1990s
Diddums

156s and 158s are the height of luxury () for us in Northern Rail territory! That distance you might get a 142 or 150 down here!

 

[rail-britain]

I think they'd agree with you too, but there is no other option short of new build stock or reducing capacity on the train

ScotRail was recently offered an opportunity to replace the lounge cars and brake coaches with Mark 3 versions, they declined

 

[WestCoast]

I think First do a reasonable job on the whole (their trains that is, certainly not their buses:roll

TPE (with keolis involvement) are good, I was impressed by Scotrail as well and First Great Western seem to be doing OK at the moment! Never used FCC so can't comment.

 

[Failed Unit]

ScotRail was recently offered an opportunity to replace the lounge cars and brake coaches with Mark 3 versions, they declined

Maybe because the would fit at euston! 4x 3m makes a difference.

 

[rail-britain]

I haven't been up to Aberdeen in the rush hour, but I've heard that some North East strengthening is needed

This has been a long-term issue ever since sprinters were introduced
The loco hauled services were able to cope, as they were timed to arrive and depart at the Aberdeen "rush hour" intervals
With sprinters the frequency has halved the capacity of those intervals

However, there used to be a single sprinter that was retained for a morning Montrose - Aberdeen (then forming a service to Inverness) and evening Aberdeen - Stonehaven
This was suspended when the Class 158s were replaced by Class 156s

There have been improvements, which reinstated the evening service only but it pretty much reinstates the previous capacity which has now been vastly exceeded
Equally, the lack of a regular stopping service at stations between Montrose and Inverurie means rail travel is not a practical day to day option

 

[Failed Unit]

I think it depends on who you ask and when. I am sure a thameslink passenger this time last year would not have a good word to say about first with the mass cancelations, short forming etc. You can debate as much as you like about whose fault it was it is firsts name on the franchise so the mud sticks to the uninformed. Just like it did with great western when DFT told the to store lots of trains causing mass overcrowding.

 

[Firestarter]

It's a shame the two were ever lumped together, but there you go. For a balanced, if irrational view of the differences between Thameslink and GN, look at the unofficial FCC message board. Nearly all the messages are from passengers of the Thameslink route - that's because most GN passengers are relatively happy.

It will be interesting to see how happy they are when the core is joined up. Not very I will geuss.

 

[tbtc]

You can debate as much as you like about whose fault it was it is firsts name on the franchise so the mud sticks to the uninformed

Here's a thought.

When First bought other bus companies (or, when they invented their corporate livery in about 1998) they kept the liveries/ names basically the same. For example Sheffield buses stayed pretty much the same with the red/yellow livery slightly simplified, but nothing drastic.

They only applied their "barbie" livery on new low floor buses (even brand new high floor minibuses weren't good enough to qualify for the pink and purple).

This meant that the First brand was only associated with the "best" vehicles - the twenty year old double deckers remained in the "old" colours. A contrast to Stagecoach/ Arriva etc who painted everything the same.

However, now First apply their colours to everything, so the same livery applies to youngest and oldest. So, there's no "quality" attached to the brand any more.

With me so far? So, my idea is this - maybe First should have waited until the new Thameslink stock was delivered until painting things in their colours - so that people would associate First only with the 377s etc, and not the 319s etc.

Maybe in hindsight Virgin should have done something similar - kept the HSTs and 47/86/87/90s in British Rail colours, and only put the Virgin branding on the Voyagers and Pendolinos.

The danger is that once people associate your brand with the rubbish service you inherited (not necessarily First/ Virgin's fault) it takes a long time to convert that opinion into something better. Even now I hear people using Virgin Trains as a punchline for bad service, despite the years of improvements they have made.

 

[Failed Unit]

WAGN took that approach. The didn't repaint units unless improvements took place hence why some 313s were painted in NSE after the franchise took over and only the 317/6 got the livery.

 

[tbtc]

WAGN took that approach. The didn't repaint units unless improvements took place hence why some 313s were painted in NSE after the franchise took over and only the 317/6 got the livery.

I think that's a sensible approach. This urge to repaint everything in new corporate livery straight away is beyond me

 

[rail-britain]

When I started using services between Glasgow and Cumbernauld these were operated by Class 170
These units are now operating on the Alloa services
Services between Glasgow - Cumbernauld / Falkirk are now operated by Class 156 and 158

Just checked I wasn't going mad, checked what squire was showing what type of unit should be used, showing as 158 :
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/rail/rail-franchise/performance/results-for-your-line

 

[Fred26]

It's a shame the two were ever lumped together, but there you go. For a balanced, if irrational view of the differences between Thameslink and GN, look at the unofficial FCC message board. Nearly all the messages are from passengers of the Thameslink route - that's because most GN passengers are relatively happy.

It will be interesting to see how happy they are when the core is joined up. Not very I will geuss.

I said relatively happy (compared to their Thameslink friends), but that doesn't make them 'happy' per se. I can't see how the two lines can run through the core with a high frequency and stay punctual. It hasn't even been decided yet whether it'll be Peterborough and Cambridge trains going through, or Hertford and Welwyn... or a mixture of all GN services. I'd abandon the project and re-split the franchise.

 

[rail-britain]

Maybe because the would fit at euston! 4x 3m makes a difference

Changing from Mark 2 coaches to Mark 3 coaches, the sleepers would still fit into Euston
The reason for declining was the cost only which was not included in the current franchise
The next review for the sleeper is early in the next franchise

 

[YesToHS2]

I have liked First more specifically FNW as rail operator ever since I started commuting between Chester and Warrington. When they bought the 175 is was a whole new rail experience those trains were great (once they'd fixed the bugs). When ATW was given the franchise the service quickly went down hill with the food trolley being stopped and the trains were never as clean inside again. I also much preferred the FNW livery, it was much more attractive than the the ATW blue/green.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I used to commute on Thameslink back when it was run by...Thameslink - and it was pretty poor then it must be said, certainly due in part to capacity constraints. (Better than Silverlink, but that's another matter). While do noubt some of these problems remain, it must be said in support of FCC that they've refurbished the trains, made them much smarter and brighter, with more space (by removing some seats), and at least some of their stations have had improvements. And what they have done to the passenger saloons on the 313s on the GN lines represents a great improvement of what are now rather aging and fairly basic stock. (i'm no fan of their chosen colour schemes, but let that be put aside for now..)

Something approximately similar could be said of those parts of FGW I am familar with too; there does seem to have been some sort of effort to improve conditions for passengers.

I can't disagree that First's bus operations leave a great deal to be desired, however. Certainly the worst of the major bus perating groups. But my sense is, now, that their train operations are really not so bad, and certainly have improved.