Why does Milton Keynes lack morning peak services from the North?

[All Line Rover]

If I want to arrive in Milton Keynes Central from Manchester after 07:00 on a weekday, I can't arrive until 08:46.

If I want to arrive from Chester after 07:00 and don't want to change trains twice with an extended journey time, I can't arrive until after 10:00. And even if I am prepared to change trains twice with an extended journey time, I can't arrive until 08:46 (travelling on a lengthy detour via Stoke to catch the train from Manchester).

If I want to arrive from Birmingham after 07:00 and don't want to travel on a slow London Midland service via Northampton, I have a choice of arriving at 07:40 or 09:18.

If I want to arrive from Nuneaton (and there are many Nuneaton to Milton Keynes commuters), I have a choice of arriving at 08:55, or 07:40 (travelling via Coventry to catch the train from Birmingham, with double the journey time of a direct train).

Why such a terrible service? There are VTWC departures from Euston to Milton Keynes, in the space of two hours, at 06:43 (Birmingham), 06:55 (Manchester), 07:10 (Chester), 07:20 (Manchester), 07:35 (Manchester), 07:43 (Birmingham), 08:07 (Liverpool), 08:10 (Chester), 08:20 (Manchester) and 08:43 (Birmingham). It would be counter-intuitive to live in central London if working in Milton Keynes. There is an excellent service northbound to Manchester (though not Birmingham - a choice of arriving at 08:08 or 09:08 is far from ideal for the regular commuter). Why such a poor service from the North by comparison? Milton Keynes is a significant centre of employment. The morning peak service must be very inconvenient for passengers commuting from e.g. Coventry, and especially Nuneaton.

 

[Richard_B]

I can only assume it is to squeeze as many paths in to Euston from further out, and avoiding MKC to London commuters ramming on as well.

 

[All Line Rover]

I'm not against 'set down only' restrictions, if these were deemed necessary.

 

[The Planner]

It busts the peak flight into Euston, MK would add 4 minutes in to a train. Set down would add 3½.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not against 'set down only' restrictions, if these were deemed necessary.

They aren't feasible in this case - commuters would ignore them and get on anyway. There's no scope to separately close off platforms 4 and 5 to prevent it. And unlike in the other direction you can't enforce by FUD as to whether it's actually going to stop or not.

 

[gordonthemoron]

There is presently only one set down only service in the morning peak at MKC, does that get rammed with MKC commuters that shouldn't get on there?

 

[DarloRich]

If I want to arrive in Milton Keynes Central from Manchester after 07:00 on a weekday, I can't arrive until 08:46.

If I want to arrive from Chester after 07:00 and don't want to change trains twice with an extended journey time, I can't arrive until after 10:00. And even if I am prepared to change trains twice with an extended journey time, I can't arrive until 08:46 (travelling on a lengthy detour via Stoke to catch the train from Manchester).

If I want to arrive from Birmingham after 07:00 and don't want to travel on a slow London Midland service via Northampton, I have a choice of arriving at 07:40 or 09:18.

If I want to arrive from Nuneaton (and there are many Nuneaton to Milton Keynes commuters), I have a choice of arriving at 08:55, or 07:40 (travelling via Coventry to catch the train from Birmingham, with double the journey time of a direct train).

Why such a terrible service? There are VTWC departures from Euston to Milton Keynes, in the space of two hours, at 06:43 (Birmingham), 06:55 (Manchester), 07:10 (Chester), 07:20 (Manchester), 07:35 (Manchester), 07:43 (Birmingham), 08:07 (Liverpool), 08:10 (Chester), 08:20 (Manchester) and 08:43 (Birmingham). It would be counter-intuitive to live in central London if working in Milton Keynes. There is an excellent service northbound to Manchester (though not Birmingham - a choice of arriving at 08:08 or 09:08 is far from ideal for the regular commuter). Why such a poor service from the North by comparison? Milton Keynes is a significant centre of employment. The morning peak service must be very inconvenient for passengers commuting from e.g. Coventry, and especially Nuneaton.

The services tend to support the current flows which are either from London or form Rugby/Northampton. I can see a need soon for a better service from Nuneaton due to house price rises but at present it seems OK. The people i know who commute from there don't seem overly worried. They can be in work for 9am. There are earlier trains available and people will catch them if they need to despite needing a change. There isnt much in the way of commuting from Coventry at present.

Despite what you might think there is a good level of commuting from London to Milton Keynes everyday. More business is moving out of London but people don't want to give up their houses (often south of London) and move.

The express services form further north also seem to fit in with business needs in that you can get to a pre 9 am meeting in MK if you need to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is presently only one set down only service in the morning peak at MKC, does that get rammed with MKC commuters that shouldn't get on there?

Which one?

 

[DarloRich]

Which one?

is there not an 0720 something?

 

[Bletchleyite]

is there not an 0720 something?

I don't know, that was why I was asking

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It busts the peak flight into Euston, MK would add 4 minutes in to a train. Set down would add 3½.

The first two Holyhead services call at Rugby and Nuneaton rather than Milton Keynes, and are completely rammed from there.
MKC has other peak departures to London, Rugby and Nuneaton don't.
I imagine the peak revenue earned is a lot higher too.

 

[All Line Rover]

Might I suggest that the problem lies with London Midland. The two "early" morning Trent Valley services arrive in London at 08:05 and 09:37. Only the latter calls at Milton Keynes; the former runs fast from Northampton. The 08:05 arrival is ideal for some London commuters from the Trent Valley, and great for Northampton, but there is a significant gap between the two services. An 08:50 arrival at Euston which calls at Milton Keynes at 08:15 (as exists hourly from 11:50 onwards) would help correct that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The non-stop NMP-EUS service exists for political reasons, not because of any logic whatsoever - it really needs to stop at MKC. There is no need for any LM service to run non-stop through MKC.

It would just require Northampton Town Council etc to stop whining about being secondary to MKC and accept that as a commuter origin they are secondary to MKC, being that little bit further out.

 

[30907]

Why such a terrible service? There are VTWC departures from Euston to Milton Keynes, in the space of two hours, at 06:43 (Birmingham), 06:55 (Manchester), 07:10 (Chester), 07:20 (Manchester), 07:35 (Manchester), 07:43 (Birmingham), 08:07 (Liverpool), 08:10 (Chester), 08:20 (Manchester) and 08:43 (Birmingham). It would be counter-intuitive to live in central London if working in Milton Keynes. There is an excellent service northbound to Manchester (though not Birmingham - a choice of arriving at 08:08 or 09:08 is far from ideal for the regular commuter).

Perhaps because MKC is thought to be a significant traffic generator as a starting station, given its road access from a wide and prosperous area?
Watford Junction used to have an equivalent morning service (originally with "u" stops) but has the disadvantage of being inside the M25.

 

[Ianno87]

There is presently only one set down only service in the morning peak at MKC, does that get rammed with MKC commuters that shouldn't get on there?

I used to regularly alight 1R22 (0715 ex-Manchester), MK at 0847, in the days when it was still set down only (it is now an open stop).

You got the odd one or two chancers, but that was generally it. Mind you, being 0923 into Euston, it is on the late side for the hardcore 'in the know' commuters, and the competing LM at 0841 is (relatively) lightly loaded, and only gets to Euston 4 minutes later anyway (and was generally pretty punctual)

 

[bILLOO]

The non-stop NMP-EUS service exists for political reasons, not because of any logic whatsoever - it really needs to stop at MKC. There is no need for any LM service to run non-stop through MKC.

It would just require Northampton Town Council etc to stop whining about being secondary to MKC and accept that as a commuter origin they are secondary to MKC, being that little bit further out.

Back in my commuting days I regularly used both fast services from Northampton. Usually the Buzzard express is at MKC when the fast from Birmingham via Northampton rushes through and seems to eat up enough commuters.

Northampton generally gets a rough deal being on the loop and I understand the frustration with the loss of the Crewe services and generally having a slow service to London compared with MKC. I'm glad I have no need to commute regularly from there anymore.

 

[Spartacus]

If I was cynical I'd say it was to make it impossible for train planners and other NR staff from the North to commute to MK.

 

[The Planner]

Ha ha! That would be chat in a cosy Quadrant meeting room for you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't it part of the contracts there to live locally? Thought it was.


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[The Planner]

Nope, depending on band it is 75 or 90 minute commute. If it was local then we would be really screwed.

 

[randyrippley]

just accept the fact that no-one who lives in the north would ever want to go to Milton Keynes, so why bother stopping trains there? Conversely those who do live at Milton Keynes are all desperate to escape

 

[Bevan Price]

If I want to arrive in Milton Keynes Central from Manchester after 07:00 on a weekday, I can't arrive until 08:46.

If I want to arrive from Chester after 07:00 and don't want to change trains twice with an extended journey time, I can't arrive until after 10:00. And even if I am prepared to change trains twice with an extended journey time, I can't arrive until 08:46 (travelling on a lengthy detour via Stoke to catch the train from Manchester).

If I want to arrive from Birmingham after 07:00 and don't want to travel on a slow London Midland service via Northampton, I have a choice of arriving at 07:40 or 09:18.

If I want to arrive from Nuneaton (and there are many Nuneaton to Milton Keynes commuters), I have a choice of arriving at 08:55, or 07:40 (travelling via Coventry to catch the train from Birmingham, with double the journey time of a direct train).

Why such a terrible service? .

Because the London-based "experts" in charge of DfT think that people only wish to travel to or from London ??

For example, just look at the "excellent" through services between Liverpool and stations located between Stafford & Euston.

 

[All Line Rover]

A surprisingly large number of people alight the 06:55 ex. Holyhead (a 5 car Voyager) when it arrives in Milton Keynes at 10:02, the previous stop having been Crewe at 08:56. I have to wonder how many of these passengers would travel earlier if a direct service was provided (not that this is feasible unless the 07:35 Nuneaton call was withdrawn on the 04:48 Holyhead & 06:00 Preston to Euston and replaced with a similarly timed London Midland service, although there is actually a reasonable gap between the arrival of the 04:48 / 06:00 in Euston and the next service to arrive in Euston that uses the fast lines).

 

[route:oxford]

And unlike in the other direction you can't enforce by FUD as to whether it's actually going to stop or not.

I love the way English based bulletin boards allow the use of Scottish obscenities.

Pussy galore in Scunthorpe as they say...

Stopping an up at Bletchley might be handy in the future when East-West opens for an early connection to the UKs leading university and the Thames Valley's finance capital.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose I would say that being a Bletchleyite, but I think post EWR there is justification for all "LM" services to call there for connections.

By the way, it's "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt" - a term you hear a lot in IT.

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[ChiefPlanner]

This was a bit of an issue for the 2004 VWC TT -particularly links from the Coventry corridor to MK I cannot remember now how we sorted it - but there was a surprising genuine , fare paying passenger need....(without going via Northampton with a change) - no worries - HS2 will sort it out ..

 

[IanD]

just accept the fact that no-one who lives in the north would ever want to go to Milton Keynes, so why bother stopping trains there? Conversely those who do live at Milton Keynes are all desperate to escape

Here we go again. I'm from Bradford and live/work in Milton Keynes (MK) through choice. I know which one I prefer.

I thought the lack of stoppers from oop North came about thanks to Virgin's high frequency service; their desire to rid themselves of MK commuters and their certain knowledge that all their passengers just want to get to London as quickly as possible but there's no market for intermediate journeys. Used to have plenty of southbound services stopping in the morning peak prior to the line upgrade.

 

[DarloRich]

Ha ha! That would be chat in a cosy Quadrant meeting room for you.

no it wouldn't - you can never get a room

Nope, depending on band it is 75 or 90 minute commute. If it was local then we would be really screwed.

90 for all grades now - means you can be a band 5 and live in Crewe but work in MK

just accept the fact that no-one who lives in the north would ever want to go to Milton Keynes, so why bother stopping trains there? Conversely those who do live at Milton Keynes are all desperate to escape

There is quite a good northern contingent in MK ( not just at NR) we best all move back having shown the soft southerners what hard work really is.

 

[eMeS]

just accept the fact that no-one who lives in the north would ever want to go to Milton Keynes, so why bother stopping trains there? Conversely those who do live at Milton Keynes are all desperate to escape

I object - on both counts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is quite a good northern contingent in MK ( not just at NR) we best all move back having shown the soft southerners what hard work really is.

Me included. Though the War of the Roses is still strong