Why do we need both London Terminals and London Thameslink station groups?

[Mike395]

I know the technical answer - but surely an amalgamated 'London Group' valid to any London Terminal would be much more passenger friendly, allowing transfers between any two Z1 stations with a direct rail connection as part of the customer's ticket to/from London and eliminate a large amount of complexity (particularly in cases like the MML/BML where there's a tangible validity difference between 'Terminals' and 'Thameslink' destinations)

 

[OscarH]

But what about those lost pennies of revenue!

 

[MrJeeves]

But what about those lost pennies of revenue!

Need to make Railcards discount by 33.3% instead

 

[Topological]

I know the technical answer - but surely an amalgamated 'London Group' valid to any London Terminal would be much more passenger friendly, allowing transfers between any two Z1 stations with a direct rail connection as part of the customer's ticket to/from London and eliminate a large amount of complexity (particularly in cases like the MML/BML where there's a tangible validity difference between 'Terminals' and 'Thameslink' destinations)

That is a good point. Presumably there are restrictions on which Terminals count a Terminals?

If you were to be coming from the MML (Leicester say) and then legitimately break your journey in Bedford, you may board a Thameslink train which serves St Pancras (the terminal for the MML train), Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars (a terminal for some trains) and London Bridge (a terminal for a lot of trains). It would be interesting to see the arguments for which of these stations the Leicester to London Terminals ticket would be valid at.

 

[30907]

That is a good point. Presumably there are restrictions on which Terminals count a Terminals?

If you were to be coming from the MML (Leicester say) and then legitimately break your journey in Bedford, you may board a Thameslink train which serves St Pancras (the terminal for the MML train), Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars (a terminal for some trains) and London Bridge (a terminal for a lot of trains). It would be interesting to see the arguments for which of these stations the Leicester to London Terminals ticket would be valid at.

As a detail, Elephant is also included. Farringdon and STP would be added coming from the ex-SR side.

But do you then add Farringdon EL from Liverpool St as it is NR, or do you keep it "as is"?
And what happens to interavailability with LU to Farringdon?

Or, more radically, do you make all London Terminals valid to Zone 1, like a DB City Ticket? And who pays?

Genuine questions, I'm not trying to knock the idea!

 

[zwk500]

That is a good point. Presumably there are restrictions on which Terminals count a Terminals?

If you were to be coming from the MML (Leicester say) and then legitimately break your journey in Bedford, you may board a Thameslink train which serves St Pancras (the terminal for the MML train), Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars (a terminal for some trains) and London Bridge (a terminal for a lot of trains). It would be interesting to see the arguments for which of these stations the Leicester to London Terminals ticket would be valid at.

From NRE: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/travelling-in-london/
Arriving from the North, King's Cross and St Pancras are your limits on a 'Terminals' ticket. Arriving from the South, a Terminals ticket will get you to City TL (a holdover from Holborn Viaduct, I believe). Interesting that Farringdon isn't valid from the north as a holdover from when TL ran to Barbican, but there you go.

 

[Verulamius]

Would it be better to have different named groups of stations for a particular flow, rather than just name them all London Terminals?

So you could have London Terminals South, London Terminals West?, London Terminals North etc?

There would probably need to be overlapping groupings as longer distance flows have a greater range of London terminals to choose from?

 

[Topological]

Would it be better to have different named groups of stations for a particular flow, rather than just name them all London Terminals?

So you could have London Terminals South, London Terminals West?, London Terminals North etc?

There would probably need to be overlapping groupings as longer distance flows have a greater range of London terminals to choose from?

The map posted by @zwk500 is logical, but I do agree that the name "Terminals" is misleading when the origin of the ticket matters.

I do not recall seeing such a "Terminals" map anywhere on my travels. I can therefore see why someone might get very confused about the ticket validity. (I acknowledge they may be "deliberately confused" and seek to claim that another London Terminal should be valid, but its a very grey area).

The obvious simplification does seem to be to put all together into one group.

The more draconian clarification would be to name the stations to which a ticket is valid on the ticket. Such naming would be easier with mobile tickets as there are less limitations on space. So if a ticket could be London Euston, London St Pancras and London Kings Cross (say) then that could all be clearly indicated in the destination of the ticket.

 

[swt_passenger]

…Interesting that Farringdon isn't valid from the north as a holdover from when TL ran to Barbican, but there you go.

Barbican wasn’t a London Terminal when Thameslink ran there either. I’ll try and find where I posted the NFM 99 details a few years ago, turns out it was IN 2017!

Farringdon to Luton Airport Parkway - "London Terminals"

Hi, I recently bought a Farringdon to Luton Airport Parkway Open Return. Not knowing the exact time of travel I put in a departure of 3am (knowing that it would be valid all day) and paid online through virgin trains website. When I collected the ticket this morning, it was printed as...

www.railforums.co.uk

IIRC there was another obvious problem at Moorgate as it was a London Terminal from the ECML but not from the MML.

 

[flitwickbeds]

What actually happens if somebody presents at Farringdon with a Terminals ticket from, say, Flitwick? A Flitwick>Terminals ticket is the same price as a Flitwick>Thameslink ticket so what harm to the railway is being done?

 

[Hadders]

My view is that London Terminals tickets should allow travel from any direction to Farringdon but not beyond.

There would be some winners and losers:

From the east a London Terminals ticket is valid to Liverpool Street (and with a bit on clever walking via the EL platforms to Moorgate). I doubt allowing travel to Farringdon would represent much of a revenue risk

From the south London Terminals tickets are valid as far as City Thameslink. Allowing travel to Farringdon isn't going to be a revenue risk. London Thameslink tickets would cease to exist so someone wanting to travel to St Pancras from the south would need a ticket specifically to St Pancras. This might cost more but it wouldn't need to (aren't many tickets to London Terminals/London Thameslink from the south the same?)

From the north London Terminals tickets are valid as far as St Pancras. They would gain validity to Farringdon. Anyone wanting to tarvel beyond would need to purchase a ticket to City Thameslink/Balckfriars/London Bridge as now. Tickets from the MML are hiatorically valid to London Thameslink - these would change to London Terminals and lose validity beyond Farringdon. Anyone wanting a station further south would need a ticket to the appropriate station which would potentially cost more (although it wouldn't need to)

The biggest issue is from the west as under my idea tickets to London Terminals would be valid on the EL as far as Farringdon. This is a revenue risk and there would need to be an increase in fares. Alternatively, existing London Terminals tickets from the west could have their destination changed to 'Paddington only' with London Terminals being more expensive but allowing travel on the EL to Farringdon.

 

[JonathanH]

Alternatively, existing London Terminals tickets from the west could have their destination changed to 'Paddington only' with London Terminals being more expensive but allowing travel on the EL to Farringdon.

Trouble with that is you lose validity via Staines to the Southern terminals.

 

[Hadders]

Trouble with that is you lose validity via Staines to the Southern terminals.

I knew someone would say that.....

It would need some thought to see if there was a straightforward way that still allowed travel to the southern terminals.

 

[zwk500]

My view is that London Terminals tickets should allow travel from any direction to Farringdon but not beyond.

There would be some winners and losers:

From the east a London Terminals ticket is valid to Liverpool Street (and with a bit on clever walking via the EL platforms to Moorgate). I doubt allowing travel to Farringdon would represent much of a revenue risk

From the south London Terminals tickets are valid as far as City Thameslink. Allowing travel to Farringdon isn't going to be a revenue risk. London Thameslink tickets would cease to exist so someone wanting to travel to St Pancras from the south would need a ticket specifically to St Pancras. This might cost more but it wouldn't need to (aren't many tickets to London Terminals/London Thameslink from the south the same?)

From the north London Terminals tickets are valid as far as St Pancras. They would gain validity to Farringdon. Anyone wanting to tarvel beyond would need to purchase a ticket to City Thameslink/Balckfriars/London Bridge as now. Tickets from the MML are hiatorically valid to London Thameslink - these would change to London Terminals and lose validity beyond Farringdon. Anyone wanting a station further south would need a ticket to the appropriate station which would potentially cost more (although it wouldn't need to)

The biggest issue is from the west as under my idea tickets to London Terminals would be valid on the EL as far as Farringdon. This is a revenue risk and there would need to be an increase in fares. Alternatively, existing London Terminals tickets from the west could have their destination changed to 'Paddington only' with London Terminals being more expensive but allowing travel on the EL to Farringdon.

An alternative option to simplify ticketing would be that tickets are either issued to a Specific terminal (or set, in the case of e.g. SE to CX/Vic/CS) or effectively a Zone 1 travelcard.

 

[miklcct]

But what about those lost pennies of revenue!

Before privatisation did "London Thameslink" group exist on the Thameslink route? Allowing London Terminals ticket to reach the other side of London will surely abstract TfL's revenue!

I think that the simplication should go another way - abolish the London Terminals and London Thameslink group and issue tickets only to specific stations, unless the stations involved are close enough not requiring further transport (e.g. King's Cross / St Pancras remain in a group, Waterloo / Waterloo East remain in a group), with any further travel requiring a Zone U1 ticket including the Thameslink core, which are interavailable on the tube.

For example, King's Cross and Liverpool Street are completely separate destinations, and tickets to Cambridge shouldn't be interavailable. There should be two different sets of tickets from each as they are on completely different routes (buy two singles if you require travelling out and back on different routes).