Why do trains slow down so far away from stations?

[driverd]

So it is possible to bring a train to a stop from 60mph in 150m such that the whole train is in the platform? The poster didn't mention anything about reversing back, being unable to open the doors, etc., so I assume the whole train was in the platform. Wow, that is very impressive.

Yes, I would imagine 200m certainly with anything modern.

Again, highly abnormal in passenger service - I'd probably require a change of underwear if it ever happened.

 

[seagull]

Bear in mind that many "Intercity" station platform lengths are 250-300 metres or more, too. Making a 30-35mph entry speed and a low-medium brake application still an easy stop. So although never experienced I can well imagine a 60mph stop on that sort of platform could be achieved with the right traction and rail conditions, though pretty rough!

 

[MotCO]

If there was a waiting time allowance at the station, would a driver take it easy approaching a station so as to have less time to wait time at the station?

 

[Master29]

I notice a similar situation at Truro where the train slows down before the large viaduct and quite often trains are held here, crawl into Truro Station from the Plymouth end but I suspect this may be because of signalling due to Falmouth trains.

 

[43096]

Bear in mind that many "Intercity" station platform lengths are 250-300 metres or more, too. Making a 30-35mph entry speed and a low-medium brake application still an easy stop. So although never experienced I can well imagine a 60mph stop on that sort of platform could be achieved with the right traction and rail conditions, though pretty rough!

I can think of at least two occasions (not in the U.K., before standards managers have kittens) where the train I’ve been on has hit the (long) platform at 70mph and braked smoothly to a stand at the appropriate stop mark. Conversely I’ve lost count of the number of times in this country where a train has crawled into a platform and has then either had to apply power as it wouldn’t reach the stop mark or coasts along the platform at slow speed before the brake goes in and it stops/collapses in a juddering heap. I know which of those I think is the poorer driving style.

 

[trebor79]

It depends on the exact location, signaling, professional driver policies and an abundance of other things.

Brundall heading away from Norwich could look like this to an observer on the platform. If the distant at Brundall Gardens was yellow by the time I round the curve at Brundall to long platform with a now green signal at the end it would appear I was crawling around. But that would be because I'm anticipating a red and being careful of the two sets of TPWS loops on approach.

It's Attleborough which is my local station. I think on services heading towards Norwich it might be as you describe because they have a single yellow because the signal a few hundred meters beyond the platform stays red until after departure (I guess so the level crossing on Bunwell Road doesn't have to be lowered excessively early). But in the Thetford direction there's no such issue, but they still crawl into the platform.

That may just be your answer there, you mention a level crossing. Non-stopping trains perhaps get green signals all the way through (the crossing is lowered way in advance as to not cause the train to needlessly slow down then pick up speed again potentially losing time), whereas stopping trains get restrictive signalling and the crossing is lowered later. Not a definite answer but a possibility.

It's full barriers with obstacle detection and is lowered a couple of minutes in advance of either a non-stop or stpping servoce.

Not knowing which is your local station makes it hard to help here, but there is no station in the UK which has a line speed and platform length combination which would allow a train entering the platform at 60 to stop in the platform. Trains simply cannot stop that quickly even in ideal railhead conditions.

You'd be amazed what modern brakes can do - certainly based on the traction I'm familiar with, anything built after 2015 could probably manage that on a platform of circa 150-200m.

Indeed, the 755's can stop very smartly indeed. Perhaps 60 at platform end is a slight exaggeration, but he was definitely close to line speed when the rounded the corner just north of the station. Didn't stop in the usual place, but was just within the 130m-ish platform, we all had a walk to get on!

 

[Senex]

I can think of at least two occasions (not in the U.K., before standards managers have kittens) where the train I’ve been on has hit the (long) platform at 70mph and braked smoothly to a stand at the appropriate stop mark. Conversely I’ve lost count of the number of times in this country where a train has crawled into a platform and has then either had to apply power as it wouldn’t reach the stop mark or coasts along the platform at slow speed before the brake goes in and it stops/collapses in a juddering heap. I know which of those I think is the poorer driving style.

Yes, I've experienced the first of those too—though not quite from 70! Reaching the end of a 400-metre platform with the speed still at the 100 km/h of the loop entry-points and stopping very comfortably at the appropriate marker.

 

[380101]

Not quite. Scotrail policy is 20mph (maximum, not target) at the start of a through platform and 15mph for a buffer end platform unless occupied then it's 10mph. Initial brake is step 2.

25mph for us in ScotRail at start of a through platform! Has been that since I started 10years ago.

 

[TheEdge]

It's Attleborough which is my local station. I think on services heading towards Norwich it might be as you describe because they have a single yellow because the signal a few hundred meters beyond the platform stays red until after departure (I guess so the level crossing on Bunwell Road doesn't have to be lowered excessively early). But in the Thetford direction there's no such issue, but they still crawl into the platform.

We do.

The signal right up near Lays Lane stays red until we are right down to a crawl the clears to single yellow. But there isn't much point in accelerating to then start braking again for the platform. The red beyond for Spronces crossing doesn't really impact the situation for approaching Attleborough. In the other direction there is a signal at the other end of the old goods shed, so obviously if we've hit a yellow the other side of Spronces on approach then we'll be crawling similar to the other direction.

Station Road crossing is known for being slippery any time of year, but especially this time of year hence why we take it cautious.

 

[trebor79]

We do.

The signal right up near Lays Lane stays red until we are right down to a crawl the clears to single yellow. But there isn't much point in accelerating to then start braking again for the platform. The red beyond for Spronces crossing doesn't really impact the situation for approaching Attleborough. In the other direction there is a signal at the other end of the old goods shed, so obviously if we've hit a yellow the other side of Spronces on approach then we'll be crawling similar to the other direction.

Station Road crossing is known for being slippery any time of year, but especially this time of year hence why we take it cautious.

Ah I see. I guess the Leys Lane signal stays red to prevent the station road crossing being down longer than is necessary. Although I wonder if it would actually be down for less time if trains were able to approach normally!

 

[Jan]

Yes, I would imagine 200m certainly with anything modern.

Again, highly abnormal in passenger service - I'd probably require a change of underwear if it ever happened.

With emergency braking that might just be possible (though I've no idea whether that's actually realistic for UK rolling stock), but certainly not assuming regular service braking – that distance would require an average braking rate of 1.78 m/s², which in my experience not even trams manage with service braking (emergency brakes are a different matter). Maybe 45 mph at most, 50 mph at a stretch with very good, bordering on tram-like, brakes.

 

[hexagon789]

With emergency braking that might just be possible (though I've no idea whether that's actually realistic for UK rolling stock), but certainly not assuming regular service braking – that distance would require an average braking rate of 1.78 m/s², which in my experience not even trams manage with service braking (emergency brakes are a different matter). Maybe 45 mph at most, 50 mph at a stretch with very good, bordering on tram-like, brakes.

Aren't most modern trains 12%g emergency braking?

 

[driverd]

With emergency braking that might just be possible (though I've no idea whether that's actually realistic for UK rolling stock), but certainly not assuming regular service braking – that distance would require an average braking rate of 1.78 m/s², which in my experience not even trams manage with service braking (emergency brakes are a different matter). Maybe 45 mph at most, 50 mph at a stretch with very good, bordering on tram-like, brakes.

Personally the most abrupt stop I've managed (under highly controlled conditions, empty stock, out of station opening hours and with emergency brake) is 52mph to a stand in circa 130m. Brake was already in emergency as the train hit the platform, though. This was on a slight falling gradient in a known low adhesion hot spot (though middle of summer so not really a concern).

You do the maths if you like for deceleration rate. I won't name the traction as it'll disclose my then employer and for compliance with social media policies I don't like to make it known.

Most recent traction (755s noted above, but would imagine essentially anything introduced post 2010) will achieve similar deceleration rates.

The best part is how remarkably smooth the stopping is, even at such high levels of brake force. Compared to an emergency brake application in a block/tread braked unit, you hardly even disturb your coffee!

 

[guard1]

Whilst everyone is debating the speeds a train approaches stations just remember the seconds saved by aggressive driving (braking) are inevitably spent sat outside the terminating station waiting for a booked path.

 

[43066]

So it is possible to bring a train to a stop from 60mph in 150m such that the whole train is in the platform? The poster didn't mention anything about reversing back, being unable to open the doors, etc., so I assume the whole train was in the platform. Wow, that is very impressive.

My personal best is entering a twelve car platform at 65mph, making a full service brake application and still having to release the brakes to roll all the way to the end of the platform! I hasten to add this was on an empty stock driver training run, in clear and dry conditions.

You’d never in a million years drive like that with passengers on board (unless making an emergency stop of course).

 

[driverd]

Whilst everyone is debating the speeds a train approaches stations just remember the seconds saved by aggressive driving (braking) are inevitably spent sat outside the terminating station waiting for a booked path.

I entirely disagree. If 90 seconds are lost boarding a wheelchair user, which can then be recovered en-route, the result is usually a right time arrival, in your booked path. All part of keeping the broader railway moving.

That said, and let me be entirely clear, I'm not for a second advocating hitting a platform at 50-60mph. We're simply discussing the trains capabilities, demonstrated either as part of traction training/conversion or as a last resort to prevent an operational incident (as mentioned by others). I wouldn't encourage anything other than a style that's entirely compliant with the employers professional driving policy and, foremost, safe.

As mentioned earlier and more back on topic - steady, safe approaches, with plentiful excess brake capability in hand are absolutely, and rightly, the norm for a great number of reasons, not least signalling, speed restrictions and potential low adhesion.

 

[Taunton]

Not quite. Scotrail policy is 20mph (maximum, not target) at the start of a through platform and 15mph for a buffer end platform unless occupied then it's 10mph. Initial brake is step 2.

Most surprising. Recall the 1970s Class 27 push-pull Glasgow-Edinburgh stopping mid-journey at Falkirk High, must have been doing 40mph-plus on entry, pulled up fine. This stock was deliberately converted from vacuum to air brake to give rapid stops and achieve the overall timings desired (which, incidentally, are not even equalled by the electric service today).

Wonder what some of the London Underground trains on the faster lines, like the Victoria or JLE, are doing when entering a platform.

More generally, I have long wondered why major terminal station approaches are so slow. It's common for say 100mph not to be allowed until several miles out. Being able to get up to line speed right from the start, as at some intermediate points, would make a significant difference to journey time.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Whilst we all know that LU have little cheats in their station layouts which raise the track gradient on a slope as trains enter a station to aid braking and a downwards slope to aid acceleration on exiting, it always amazes me the speed that a LU train will fire into a station, I'd say its harder to judge and get right on the LU compared to the visibility of NR stations platform and landmarks, I suspect the rolling stock goes through more brakes than a NR train and Sadiq and his managers don't give a toss because the service is running smoothly.
This also isn't a factor on the self driving lines but it does make you think do driver trainers and TOCs make drivers frightened of breaking some professional standards rules on entry speeds etc when some of the rolling stock is newer and more efficient than the rulebook, the trainer and the sectional appendix?

Plus after chatting to a guard recently I commented on how the train I was on was being driven rather enthusiasticly, the braking was probably close to full service and the acceleration was almost full power from the standstill.
He said I can tell what driver it is I'm paired up with without seeing or speaking to them, some drive like cowboys, some like little miss old daisy where we are chasing the timetable all journey.
He also said he can guarantee when it's someone's going home time the limits of the train are usually tested and that he and the driver were off at the next stop hence the spirit ride that day. It did make me chuckle

 

[Mattyblob]

Whilst we all know that LU have little cheats in their station layouts which raise the track gradient on a slope as trains enter a station to aid braking and a downwards slope to aid acceleration on exiting, it always amazes me the speed that a LU train will fire into a station, I'd say its harder to judge and get right on the LU compared to the visibility of NR stations platform and landmarks, I suspect the rolling stock goes through more brakes than a NR train and Sadiq and his managers don't give a toss because the service is running smoothly.
This also isn't a factor on the self driving lines but it does make you think do driver trainers and TOCs make drivers frightened of breaking some professional standards rules on entry speeds etc when some of the rolling stock is newer and more efficient than the rulebook, the trainer and the sectional appendix?

Plus after chatting to a guard recently I commented on how the train I was on was being driven rather enthusiasticly, the braking was probably close to full service and the acceleration was almost full power from the standstill.
He said I can tell what driver it is I'm paired up with without seeing or speaking to them, some drive like cowboys, some like little miss old daisy where we are chasing the timetable all journey.
He also said he can guarantee when it's someone's going home time the limits of the train are usually tested and that he and the driver were off at the next stop hence the spirit ride that day. It did make me chuckle

The central line trains routinely hit 8 car platforms at 65kph (40mph) in the tunnel and stop comfortably, easily doable in coded manual too. 72's on the Bakerloo do the same thing from 35mph in their own (7 car) platforms using full service brake and its achievable from 40mph with a bit of westinghouse.

It's amazing what you can achieve when you remove environmental factors on rail!

 

[Metal_gee_man]

It's amazing what you can achieve when you remove environmental factors on rail

I agree that makes a huge difference, but equally they don't tend to play silly buggers on the rest of the network outside of the tunnels.

It's feels like a different mentality, speed, frequency and efficiency are the key words here because LU passengers aren't tolerant of slow driving and delays. Whereas on the NR network its about pathings, money savings and doing just enough to get passengers to their destinations within 15 mins of the booked time so again someone doesn't have to pay out. Some TOCs will make a driver report to the driver manager when they have to use a full service brake application on entering a station, this is forcing some to drive very fearfully and unnecessarily so all so TOCs don't have to have brakes replaced more often or so they don't need to do so many wheel checks for flat spots.

 

[hexagon789]

Recall the 1970s Class 27 push-pull Glasgow-Edinburgh stopping mid-journey at Falkirk High, must have been doing 40mph-plus on entry, pulled up fine. This stock was deliberately converted from vacuum to air brake to give rapid stops and achieve the overall timings desired (which, incidentally, are not even equalled by the electric service today).

They also had a two-stage disc braking system fitted to give a higher braking rate as well with the brake pressure increased below 60mph.

As for the timings, firstly that was on a quieter railway, and the service made only one or two stops. Secondly reliability issues led to firstly 2 then 4 minutes being added to the timings taking them from 41-43 to 47-49 mins.

 

[dk1]

Ah I see. I guess the Leys Lane signal stays red to prevent the station road crossing being down longer than is necessary. Although I wonder if it would actually be down for less time if trains were able to approach normally!

It’s exactly the same as when they where semaphores here. Signaller pulled the first home off when the down train hit the approaching track circuit. This then prevented Spronces AHBs from activating until the stopping train departs Attleborough. The MCBOD crossing is actually down for a while whilst the approach signal is still red.

 

[Route115?]

Defensive driving is a big thing these days and drummed into drivers. It does reduce SPADS & hopefully save energy. Interestingly, when I was on the Zurich S-bahn I kept finding myself running to the doors at stations because I am used to trains making very slow stops at stations and not the Undergrounf type rate of stopping experienced.

 

[gazza8]

Not quite. Scotrail policy is 20mph (maximum, not target) at the start of a through platform and 15mph for a buffer end platform unless occupied then it's 10mph. Initial brake is step 2.

20 mph is not a policy for Scotrail neither is 10mph at a platform ramp within an occupied platform ‍♂️

 

[al78]

I had an (apparently) odd case of this yesterday evening. I caught the 17:04 from Farringdon to Gatwick Airport which is supposed to be a fast train only stopping at City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge and East Croydon. Made good progress until passing Redhill then it slowed right down to (I estimate) 40-50 mph near Earlswood, and stayed at that speed until it got close to Horley, then it kept slowing down until it dropped to the speed of a fit club cyclist and trundled into Gatwick at that speed, losing a few minutes as a result. Didn't delay me as it just meant five minutes less waiting for a Horsham train (which was following) but I am curious as to what caused the slowdown on what is normally a fast section of the Brighton main line.

 

[John R]

Given the mantra that if you want to make the most difference to journey times, it's the slow speed limits that you need to increase then I would have thought the type of rule described (20 or 25mph on entering a through platform) would have a material impact on journey times, particularly on suburban services with multiple stops, if a more usual driving style would result in entry speeds of maybe 10 to 15mph faster (depending on the length of platform and where along it the train is supposed to stop).

 

[Tomnick]

I had an (apparently) odd case of this yesterday evening. I caught the 17:04 from Farringdon to Gatwick Airport which is supposed to be a fast train only stopping at City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge and East Croydon. Made good progress until passing Redhill then it slowed right down to (I estimate) 40-50 mph near Earlswood, and stayed at that speed until it got close to Horley, then it kept slowing down until it dropped to the speed of a fit club cyclist and trundled into Gatwick at that speed, losing a few minutes as a result. Didn't delay me as it just meant five minutes less waiting for a Horsham train (which was following) but I am curious as to what caused the slowdown on what is normally a fast section of the Brighton main line.

Looks like it crossed to the Down Slow at Earlswood (as booked?) and quickly caught up with 9R39, which stopped at the intermediate stations but had itself been delayed waiting for late-running 9T47 to go first at Earlswood. Sounds like good driving, trundling along steadily whilst the train in front made its stops, rather than chasing restrictive aspects right behind it!

 

[High Dyke]

Looks like it crossed to the Down Slow at Earlswood (as booked?) and quickly caught up with 9R39, which stopped at the intermediate stations but had itself been delayed waiting for late-running 9T47 to go first at Earlswood. Sounds like good driving, trundling along steadily whilst the train in front made its stops, rather than chasing restrictive aspects right behind it!

I appreciate a freight train will have a different driving style to a passenger service, but on a number of the splendid Don Coffey videos, the driving style is explained that ensures a steady pace, as opposed to chasing aspects.

 

[Taunton]

Is it not correct that the Jubilee Line manages, from line speed, 62mph, to pull up within the 7-car length of a platform? And that presumably is service braking, not emergency.

 

[Tomnick]

I appreciate a freight train will have a different driving style to a passenger service, but on a number of the splendid Don Coffey videos, the driving style is explained that ensures a steady pace, as opposed to chasing aspects.

It's obviously a much bigger deal with heavy freight trains, but the principle is similar I'm sure. I find it very satisfying to be able to put thorough route knowledge (including gradients) to good use in order to keep a steady-ish pace behind a stopper, ideally never passing a single yellow, with as little input to the driving controls as possible!