Why do ticket office know less ticketing rules than non-industry Railforum members?

[TUC]

How does the lack of training excuse explain the high level of skills on this Forum from those without such training? Again, saying its because of personal interest isn't really an answer. Showing an interest in the job you do is part of the minimum in doing it well, not an extra.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Part of the problem is that (most) recruitment nowadays favours "non-technical skills" over aptitude, coupled with a massive reduction in initial training (when I started, I had three weeks of training, now you're lucky if you get three days at my current TOC) and very little ongoing training. Combine that with people just there to chase the money, and you get a significant worsening in customer experience.

Case in point: I once had a colleague whose geographical knowledge was so poor they were unable to locate Brighton on a London and South East map.

 

[LowLevel]

How does the lack of training excuse explain the high level of skills on this Forum from those without such training? Again, saying its because of personal interest isn't really an answer. Showing an interest in the job you do is part of the minimum in doing it well, not an extra.

Does that really need asking? A railway enthusiast with a strong interest in the matter is liable to spend a lot of time reading up on the minutiae, quite possibly also gaining personal advantage in the process. A lot of it is available in the public domain so if you're so inclined, you have access to it.

There's no release for refresher training, only periodical self read briefs. Since my initial 10 day retail course years ago I have never received any further retail training for my role as an on board ticket inspector.

Someone who sits behind a window selling tickets to town with the odd advance from point A to point B is unlikely to be able to compete with a railway enthusiast with an interest, or in some cases an obsession, with something many folks would discount as mind numbingly boring.

Occasionally you do get retail staff with the same level of interest. My local station has one who is well regarded as the expert at dealing with the unusual successfully and is quite often (and quite happy to be) called at home on his rest days to be asked for advice.

Also on occasion you get retail staff/inspectors who don't know the rules, but think they do, and are very keen - and they are far more dangerous than someone who isn't interested at all.

If you're willing to sit at home reading up on something it's quite possible to become a self educated expert. Though, as I've had to remind some on here in the past it's still possible to be wrong, and if you're willing to dole out advice that could potentially see people on the wrong side of the law if it does turn out to be wrong, then you need to be very careful.

 

[yorkie]

I notice that many disputes here are down to the incompetence of ticket office staffs which they should be knowledgeable in ticketing rules and customer protection laws in delays and cancellations. (For example like the wrong excess charged in the Newcastle - Hartlepool case on disputes yesterday)

As a very rough generalisation, it's down to poor training within the industry, and a default position among some staff that the customer should not be treated well. There will always be exceptions, of course.

I wonder why some of them know little and charge too much to customers, while some of us who don't work in the industry are better in advising them how to, and at the end costs the customer service department of the railway to spend loads of time to rectify the issues.

Most people giving advise in this section probably do work within the industry (and there is often no way to tell; I wouldn't recommend anyone discloses who they work for unless their employer is 100% okay with it!), but you are right that it can indeed be the case that people who don't work within the industry know more on ticketing matters than those who don't. Of course, many rail industry roles don't involve training on ticketing matters, but some roles only include the briefest of introductions to ticketing but then put people in the position of checking tickets!

Also @LowLevel makes some excellent points in the post above.

 

[Watershed]

Also if you work for toc A you arent necessarilly briefed on toc B's products even if toc B trains stop at your station , wheras an intersted customer is likely to research all options regardless of tocs .

That's not necessarily the case. Good TOCs provide their staff with all retail briefs that could affect customers in their area of operation.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Speaking generally, and not specifically about the rail industry...

I think some people who haven't experienced it from the employee side might not realise just how little staff training is offered for a great many customer service roles - including minimal or total lack of training in how to enquire and find out more to resolve difficult or more complex issues. Even then, internal documentation can be badly written, confusing and out of date if it is available at all - and the systems used to access it can be pretty lamentable too.

 

[Cambus731]

Some interesting points here.
I'd like to add some.
Training these days is a joke. British Rail Network SouthEast trained me for 5 months in 1988 to be a booking clerk. From what I hear nowadays, its more likely to be 10 days at the most.
While the almost complete abolition of physical manuals, timetables, conditions of carriage etc is arguably good for the enviroment, it has made the looking up of anything unusual much more difficult. I would love for an up to date physical Routing Guide to be printed once again. Obviously small parts of it would become out of date over time, but that to me, is not a reason why it shouldn't be done.
I do honestly believe that there is a general perception both from the public and TOC management that railway booking office work is an easy job. On one occasion when I was in the early stages of a period of mild depression, when I said amongst other things, that the stress of the job gets to me, I've even had a former friend saying "you're only punching tickets out to people for f**ks sake" Of course, in reallity its a skilled incredibly demanding stressful role.

A sizable minority of the public have got worse and worse. When people haven't had their own way, usually over some refund they believe they are entitled to receive there and then, or when they can't have a lost ticket replaced, they say things like "you're a stupid little man. you deserve your two bob job" "You're on minimum wage. I earn three times what you do" "you need to get over yourself"
A classic was "You're a loser mate, stuck in your dead end job"
some may say that someone who is stressed by what the public can be like shouldn't be in that role, but I counter that with to say that is almost giving carte blanch to the public to be pigs to staff. Also why should someone have to give up their livelihood and face possible destitution because some of the public behave in an unacceptable way?

I do wonder if a sizable minority of the public have brought this 'can't do' attitude from staff upon themselves. I still try to give the best service possible, but so many colleagues now say either "I don't give a **** anymore, I've been sworn at and insulted too many times over the years" Or "just sell them any old ticket and get rid of them" This is maybe a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Sometimes I try to point to a colleague out that it would be cheaper to sell them a ODTC rather than a single to , say, Feltham, but they don't bother. And computer timetables do often send people via illogical or worse, invalid routes.
I'm not claiming to know everything because no-one does. I'm certainly prepared to say if I don't know something, and prepared to try to find out. But the abolition of physical manuals has made it so much harder to find things out. Plus, I'm sorry to say, often the passenger themselves are quite simply wrong in what they believe. Especially when they've used a tool such as google maps to plan a journey.
Relevant to this is the perception by great swathes of the public that when they buy a ticket they are buying the travel. so when they lose a ticket, they think they should be able to be given a replacement.
Also relevant is the inadequacy of some of the equipment. Tribute was a huge improvement over APTIS, but STAR was a big step backwards. Since STAR replaced Tribute a few years ago, it is almost impossible to process a refund. Sometimes people have to be advised that the office cannot process a refund, because they simply cannot due to the limitations of STAR. Even when the passenger is entitled to one.

 

[yorkie]

I know you didn't mean it, but found this post to be quite insensitive.

In the 10 years I was selling tickets, how many weeks, days, or hours additional training do you think my privatised company gave me? Answer: 7 hours (and that was disability awareness, rather than ticketing).

Simply put, you get what you pay for. Companies don't want to invest in staff, so staff don't feel invested in their company. This often has a ripple effect throughout the company - "Why should I care if they don't care?"

You are absolutely right this can be the reality and companies should be able to forsee this.

Although on a personal level don't agree with this part I highlighted in bold as being acceptable; for me it is very important to do a job where you have an interest in providing good experience to customers. I see any job I do as being an opportunity to do something constructive and I want to enjoy doing what I do as much as possible.

But not everyone shares that view.

If you work in the same ticket office every day, for example Blackfriars, you will end up selling tickets to Luton, Gatwick, and day returns to Brighton almost to the exclusion of all other tickets. How realistic would it be to expect someone to remember the intricacies of the UK ticketing sytem when the last obscure ticket they issued was a decade previous?

True but there is no need to have knowledge of everything; the key things are to know where to look (or who to ask etc.)

The one caveat to the above that I will concede is that if staff don't know the answer to a particular complex ticketing issue they should have the tools they need to give the correct answer rather than just flogging whatever ticket they think will do!

Agreed .

(However, sometimes the passenger doesn't want to wait a couple of minutes, or with ticket office closures, and short staffing, sometimes the queues are too big to have the in depth discussions passengers think they deserve.)

If the customer doesn't want to hear then that is their problem. As for the queues that is a tricky one but at some stations with big queues I have seen staff try to encourage any passengers with simple queries to use the machines, which frees up the ticket office for complex queries.

We really need to ensure as many transactions as possible can be done online or from machines but that's covered in another thread.

I'm sure Yorkie will be along soon for an alternative point of view.

I think what you posted is a fair assessment!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2022 ==

Railway jobs are generally paid better than similar jobs in other industries and have better pension arrangements and strong Unions. So they're popular even in people who don't enjoy them, who take a "keep your head down, do as little as possible, take the money and wait for your pension" sort of line.

This is true too.

I know of some rail industry suppliers who specifically look for people who have an interest in rail, for certain roles, to avoid employing anyone who may not take an interest in the job.

 

[TUC]

Isn't there a contradiction between the argument that 'we need to keep ticket offices open because passengers rely on their expertise' vs what is said here of 'why should you expect ticket office staff to have any special expertise'?

 

[6Gman]

To be fair, it goes the other way too..

I once wanted a Southern ticket that covered the IOW (forgotten what it was called now it was pre-covid), the ticket staff had no idea, though i showed the NR page listing it, the guy then took it as a challenge went on a 15 minute mission including books and phoning managers to find it, and find it he did !

I have to say that my local booking office (Crewe) has always been very helpful and accurate in providing information. Suggesting appropriate Day Rover tickets where they would be cheaper than a conventional Day Return or exploring splitting options for example.

 

[hermit]

To be fair, it goes the other way too..

I once wanted a Southern ticket that covered the IOW (forgotten what it was called now it was pre-covid), the ticket staff had no idea, though i showed the NR page listing it, the guy then took it as a challenge went on a 15 minute mission including books and phoning managers to find it, and find it he did !

The non-availability of through tickets between most Southern stations and IOW stations is a peculiarity (and inconvenience) that I have raised on this forum twice before. The assembled wisdom of our contributors hasn’t been able to produce a reasonable explanation for it. So fair play to your ticket chap if he managed to crack the system and sell you a through ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Isn't there a contradiction between the argument that 'we need to keep ticket offices open because passengers rely on their expertise' vs what is said here of 'why should you expect ticket office staff to have any special expertise'?

Most transactions do not require a ticket office these days; there are still several functions that are not being made available to all retail channels and that needs to change as it is absolutely clear that ticket offices are (whether people like it or not) facing mass closures.

If ticket office staff consistently provided high levels of customer care, they could really strengthen their case for remaining open. Sadly my experience is that this is all too often not the case, and the reality is that most ticket office transactions can easily be done online (and far more efficiently) and those that can't are often being deliberately held back by RDG for no apparent reason.

There should be far better support provided to customers, but it's unclear that old fashioned ticket offices are the way to achieve this. But whoever is in such a role really ought to be providing a good quality service, which is currently all too often very lacking, sadly.

The most recent times I have asked for advice at a railway station in the event of a delay I was not given useful information but I figured out myself what I should do. If anyone on this forum is stuck, my advice would be to first ask here as well as asking on Twitter (both asking the original company you were due to travel with, as well as the company you may require travel on); by all means at at a ticket office while awaiting a reply (if applicable) but never ever accept a poor answer from a ticket office; always ask the on board staff (where available) if a good solution hasn't been provided by other means.

It really is absolutely disgraceful that people who trust ticket office staff to give appropriate information are all too often fobbed off or overcharged. I would never treat anyone the way some ticket office staff treat their customers and if I did, I would not expect to remain in my job!

 

[Coolzac]

I very much agree with the sentiments that Yorkie expresses here.

If frustrates me a lot that you have lots of people who would love the job of working for the railway in a ticket office, yet some ticket office staff are incredibly unhelpful and rude.

Also, another one of my biggest bugbears has been mentioned - if the ticket office staff don't know something, they should look it up rather than invent their own rules!

 

[yorkie]

I would love for an up to date physical Routing Guide to be printed once again. Obviously small parts of it would become out of date over time, but that to me, is not a reason why it shouldn't be done.

I can't think of a good reason for providing hard copies these days, to be honest. Yes it would be nice in theory but the reality is that online works fine these days and changes occur too often to make hard copies practicable.

That said, it would be good if RDG could be prevented from making changes (well, negative changes at least ) on a whim as currently happens

I do wonder if a sizable minority of the public have brought this 'can't do' attitude from staff upon themselves.

Staff still need to behave in an acceptable manner and issue fares correctly; I do know what it is like to do a job where some people can be rude to you, but that is not an excuse to do the job in an improper manner.

I still try to give the best service possible, but so many colleagues now say either "I don't give a **** anymore, I've been sworn at and insulted too many times over the years" Or "just sell them any old ticket and get rid of them"

I'm sorry but they are in the wrong job in that case.

This is maybe a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Sometimes I try to point to a colleague out that it would be cheaper to sell them a ODTC rather than a single to , say, Feltham, but they don't bother.

It's great that you are doing your bit, and good on you for encouraging them. There is nothing more you can do than that; it's disappointing not everyone is as diligent as you are and I do feel for people such as yourself who do the right thing, only to see others act in a manner that only accelerates the reduction in the importance of ticket offices.

And computer timetables do often send people via illogical or worse, invalid routes.

If you have any examples of that, it would be interesting to hear them! It may be best in a separate thread though (feel free to tag me in).

I'm not claiming to know everything because no-one does.

Absolutely! I would be highly suspicious of anyone who claims to know everything; I've had people say things like "I've been doing this job for 20 years so I know the rules" (or similar) but anyone doing the job for that long would know that the rules change.

I'm certainly prepared to say if I don't know something, and prepared to try to find out. But the abolition of physical manuals has made it so much harder to find things out.

Is it though? You have access to the internal KnowledgeBase (iKB) which is reasonably good; yes it could be improved in certain areas but it's effectively the same as the old Manuals but simply online.

Plus, I'm sorry to say, often the passenger themselves are quite simply wrong in what they believe. Especially when they've used a tool such as google maps to plan a journey.

That is true; Google Maps does not adhere to minimum connection times for example.

Relevant to this is the perception by great swathes of the public that when they buy a ticket they are buying the travel. so when they lose a ticket, they think they should be able to be given a replacement.

Well, I've posted my opinions on that in the relevant threads

Also relevant is the inadequacy of some of the equipment. Tribute was a huge improvement over APTIS, but STAR was a big step backwards. Since STAR replaced Tribute a few years ago, it is almost impossible to process a refund. Sometimes people have to be advised that the office cannot process a refund, because they simply cannot due to the limitations of STAR. Even when the passenger is entitled to one.

Yes this is frustrating; I think if you explain to the customer what they are entitled to and that you have limitations in what you can do, most people would understand that.

It sounds like you do a great job; it is such a shame that we have to deal with so many instances of people not being as diligent as you are. In one of my jobs I am sometimes required to advise on instances where people have been overcharged by ticket offices, as well as of course the instances we see published on this forum. I've experienced being told incorrect information or being overcharged myself on numerous occasions. If everyone did as you did, the case for closing ticket offices would be weaker and there would be more support for keeping them open.

There will always be a need for people to be able to provide ticketing advice however this will change from someone sat behind a desk to a slightly different role. But the problem of passengers receiving inconsistent levels of service will probably remain, indefinitely...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2022 ==

I very much agree with the sentiments that Yorkie expresses here.

If frustrates me a lot that you have lots of people who would love the job of working for the railway in a ticket office, yet some ticket office staff are incredibly unhelpful and rude.

Also, another one of my biggest bugbears has been mentioned - if the ticket office staff don't know something, they should look it up rather than invent their own rules!

True.

For balance when I do use a ticket office (rarely admittedly) and receive good service, I do make sure to thank the staff and I will also say I am quite lucky that my local ticket office is actually pretty good. Of course when I am in need of some advice I am more likely to be elsewhere and that is when I find the level of service to all too often to be very lacking.

If any ticket office staff do not know the answer but offer to look it up, I see that as a positive thing; I do not expect them to know everything but simply be prepared to look it up if in doubt.

 

[RT4038]

Some interesting points here.
I'd like to add some.
Training these days is a joke. British Rail Network SouthEast trained me for 5 months in 1988 to be a booking clerk. From what I hear nowadays, its more likely to be 10 days at the most.
While the almost complete abolition of physical manuals, timetables, conditions of carriage etc is arguably good for the enviroment, it has made the looking up of anything unusual much more difficult. I would love for an up to date physical Routing Guide to be printed once again. Obviously small parts of it would become out of date over time, but that to me, is not a reason why it shouldn't be done.
I do honestly believe that there is a general perception both from the public and TOC management that railway booking office work is an easy job. On one occasion when I was in the early stages of a period of mild depression, when I said amongst other things, that the stress of the job gets to me, I've even had a former friend saying "you're only punching tickets out to people for f**ks sake" Of course, in reallity its a skilled incredibly demanding stressful role.

A sizable minority of the public have got worse and worse. When people haven't had their own way, usually over some refund they believe they are entitled to receive there and then, or when they can't have a lost ticket replaced, they say things like "you're a stupid little man. you deserve your two bob job" "You're on minimum wage. I earn three times what you do" "you need to get over yourself"
A classic was "You're a loser mate, stuck in your dead end job"
some may say that someone who is stressed by what the public can be like shouldn't be in that role, but I counter that with to say that is almost giving carte blanch to the public to be pigs to staff. Also why should someone have to give up their livelihood and face possible destitution because some of the public behave in an unacceptable way?

I do wonder if a sizable minority of the public have brought this 'can't do' attitude from staff upon themselves. I still try to give the best service possible, but so many colleagues now say either "I don't give a **** anymore, I've been sworn at and insulted too many times over the years" Or "just sell them any old ticket and get rid of them" This is maybe a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Sometimes I try to point to a colleague out that it would be cheaper to sell them a ODTC rather than a single to , say, Feltham, but they don't bother. And computer timetables do often send people via illogical or worse, invalid routes.
I'm not claiming to know everything because no-one does. I'm certainly prepared to say if I don't know something, and prepared to try to find out. But the abolition of physical manuals has made it so much harder to find things out. Plus, I'm sorry to say, often the passenger themselves are quite simply wrong in what they believe. Especially when they've used a tool such as google maps to plan a journey.
Relevant to this is the perception by great swathes of the public that when they buy a ticket they are buying the travel. so when they lose a ticket, they think they should be able to be given a replacement.
Also relevant is the inadequacy of some of the equipment. Tribute was a huge improvement over APTIS, but STAR was a big step backwards. Since STAR replaced Tribute a few years ago, it is almost impossible to process a refund. Sometimes people have to be advised that the office cannot process a refund, because they simply cannot due to the limitations of STAR. Even when the passenger is entitled to one.

I think that 'Management' , and I don't mean individual TOCs as such, but the Rail Industry in general, want to simplify the retail structure as much as possible - this is no phenomenon just applying to the railways - so training doesn't take (and cost in salary) six months, so as many transactions as possible are done on line / at ticket machines. They want passengers to buy a ticket from A to B (and back again) preferably specifying the train etc. and an algorithmic method of dealing with ticket change requests. This means doing away with niche products and services which attract few sales and where the cost per sale (including staff training / system programming / marketing etc ) is disproportionately high. I know it will be painful and there will be howls of anguish from the aficionados - HS2 will probably start it off.

Other Industries have already gone through this process, not without issues to be resolved - many have rationalised their offer, thinking Greggs, Aldi, Banks etc. Indeed some railways outside the UK have already moved towards this, without economic collapse. It is coming and not spending money on training for the niches is a manifestation.

 

[Cambus731]

And computer timetables do often send people via illogical or worse, invalid routes.

If you have any examples of that, it would be interesting to hear them! It may be best in a separate thread though (feel free to tag me in).

Examples of invalid include advising people to go to a station a long way past their destination, (and I mean long) then to double back.

Illogical, well where do I start. I've seen journey planner send someone on a great long way round via an invalid route and 4 changes, and it turned out that if I overrode it to 1 change only, it came up with a journey that was one minute longer. OK, thats an extreme example, but I've seen it happen.

I've seen people quoting "google maps told me to do this" and it involved journeys in London including buses and Underground on journeys in some fantasy world where everything runs precisely on time.

when anyone wishes to go anywhere out of Waterloo, journey planner has a fondness of sending people via Vauxhall and Clapham Junction, therefore creating so much extra work for the passenger when (s)he would be so much better advised to make his/her way to Waterloo so (s)he can sit on the train at it's starting point. And where there are decent facilities. It also has a fondness of sending anyone going to a station such as Feltham, Surbiton, Epsom etc via Vauxhall. That is fine in the warmer months of the year, but I'm not fond of condemming someone to waiting at Vauxhall on a cold winter evening. Similarly because its programmed to give the shortest duration of journey, it advises people to hang around at their starting point, for the last possible train that connects with the next train for their journey, again not taking into account that at the interchange station, there will probably be better facilities and a pleasanter waiting enviroment. Plus it's always wise to get the first available train to get closer to your destination, in case of a delay, however unlikely that may seem at the time.

 

[RT4038]

If you have any examples of that, it would be interesting to hear them! It may be best in a separate thread though (feel free to tag me in).

Examples of invalid include advising people to go to a station a long way past their destination, (and I mean long) then to double back.

Illogical, well where do I start. I've seen journey planner send someone on a great long way round via an invalid route and 4 changes, and it turned out that if I overrode it to 1 change only, it came up with a journey that was one minute longer. OK, thats an extreme example, but I've seen it happen.

I've seen people quoting "google maps told me to do this" and it involved journeys in London including buses and Underground on journeys in some fantasy world where everything runs precisely on time.

when anyone wishes to go anywhere out of Waterloo, journey planner has a fondness of sending people via Vauxhall and Clapham Junction, therefore creating so much extra work for the passenger when (s)he would be so much better advised to make his/her way to Waterloo so (s)he can sit on the train at it's starting point. And where there are decent facilities. It also has a fondness of sending anyone going to a station such as Feltham, Surbiton, Epsom etc via Vauxhall. That is fine in the warmer months of the year, but I'm not fond of condemming someone to waiting at Vauxhall on a cold winter evening. Similarly because its programmed to give the shortest duration of journey, it advises people to hang around at their starting point, for the last possible train that connects with the next train for their journey, again not taking into account that at the interchange station, there will probably be better facilities and a pleasanter waiting enviroment. Plus it's always wise to get the first available train to get closer to your destination, in case of a delay, however unlikely that may seem at the time.

These sort of idiosyncrasies are not absent in journey planners of the so called best European railways either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

A journey planner CANNOT send someone via an invalid route. If a ticket is sold against an itinerary it is valid, regardless of whether it should have been sold or not. It is a simple principle of contract law.

It riles somewhat just how many staff are unable to get this into their head.

 

[bramling]

Not a direct comparison, as the knowledge being discussed is relevant (critical!) to the staff member’s ability to perform in their role effectively.

A train driver having knowledge of the history of their train and line isn’t essential (though is preferred of course!) to their job performance.

The fact is, either training isn’t sufficient or some staff take no interest in their role. Indeed at one station I was at, a staff member told me they didn’t know the difference between an off-peak day return and an off-peak return when I asked for the latter and received the former!

One can make a comparison with drivers and defect handling. There is a school of thought which says that there isn’t a massive amount of point in spending ages training drivers on rare defects, as (1) you can send someone out who knows how to deal with it, (2) the cost of delivering and maintaining that training is disproportionate to the benefit, and (3) being a rare scenario, the driver may well fluff it up anyway.

But, in that case, there has to be a realistic expectation that every now and again there’s going to be a consequence of this, in this case in the form of a potentially high-profile delay, worse of course if it’s for example a hot day and the train is stuck somewhere, or whatever.

Realistic expectations. Whilst there’s certainly scope for booking offices to be better in general, it does seem to be a RailUK Forums bandwagon to bash them. It does have to be borne in mind that many people here are likely to be seeking more obscure forms of ticket, so there are going to be a disproportionate number of issues compared to the average Joe Public.

It’s perhaps also fair to point out that enthusiasts may *think* they know best on something, but this isn’t always necessarily so. I could point to a type of train where one could learn the defect book from start to finish and be able to recite every procedure perfectly, but still not be able to get the said type of train moving when one has sat down, due to various curved balls which are inevitably thrown up on the day. This is where experience comes in, and not every booking clerk is going to have that. There’s always going to be inexperienced people, and there’s unfortunately always going to be a small core of old timers who have managed to go many years without getting much better, just one of those facts of life really.

 

[CyrusWuff]

A journey planner CANNOT send someone via an invalid route. If a ticket is sold against an itinerary it is valid, regardless of whether it should have been sold or not. It is a simple principle of contract law.

A more accurate statement would be that journey planners used in Ticket Offices are able to generate itineraries that none of the tickets for the relevant flow are valid for, usually due to a routeing issue.

I've seen it happen with the system formerly known as RJIS, and on the Ticket Issuing System we currently use (because timetable enquiries are decoupled from fare enquiries.)

If someone sells a ticket against such an itinerary, then I'd concur that it must be honoured but add that the ticket could potentially be withdrawn en route (and a zero fare ticket issued to enable the passenger to complete their journey) and reported as an issuing irregularity.

 

[Dai Corner]

A more accurate statement would be that journey planners used in Ticket Offices are able to generate itineraries that none of the tickets for the relevant flow are valid for, usually due to a routeing issue.

I've seen it happen with the system formerly known as RJIS, and on the Ticket Issuing System we currently use (because timetable enquiries are decoupled from fare enquiries.)

If someone sells a ticket against such an itinerary, then I'd concur that it must be honoured but add that the ticket could potentially be withdrawn en route (and a zero fare ticket issued to enable the passenger to complete their journey) and reported as an issuing irregularity.

Internal systems don't have to through the same accreditation process as public-facing ones?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Internal systems don't have to through the same accreditation process as public-facing ones?

All Ticket Issuing Systems go through the same accreditation process, but there's no requirement to link timetable and fare enquiries (given a mobile TIS will almost always only be used for immediate travel) and those that do link the two will rely on staff knowledge to work out how to ticket an otherwise invalid route.

Plus there are occasions where validity doesn't enter into it, such as if you're using an area Rover/Ranger or a staff pass rather than a point-to-point ticket.

 

[RT4038]

A journey planner CANNOT send someone via an invalid route. If a ticket is sold against an itinerary it is valid, regardless of whether it should have been sold or not. It is a simple principle of contract law.

It riles somewhat just how many staff are unable to get this into their head.

Yes, if a ticket has been sold by that Journey Planner, but there are Planners out there which are timetable information only, and perhaps not adhering to minimum connecting times, routeing guide etc. Perhaps the OP is referring to persons buying an A to B ticket and trying to use it with such an (invalid) itinerary and being disappointed?

 

[Falcon1200]

I have some sympathy with ticket office staff these days, the vast knowledge base required is far greater than in previous years.

I agree; My booking office (BO) career lasted from 1978 to 1984 when, of course, under BR the railway organisation was far simpler than it is now. But even then the majority of our traffic, and therefore our ingrained knowledge and experience, was the local journeys for which we sold tickets by the thousands. Dealing with a complicated enquiry on a Monday morning while the queues got ever larger did not make one popular with the other passengers !

 

[RT4038]

One can make a comparison with drivers and defect handling. There is a school of thought which says that there isn’t a massive amount of point in spending ages training drivers on rare defects, as (1) you can send someone out who knows how to deal with it, (2) the cost of delivering and maintaining that training is disproportionate to the benefit, and (3) being a rare scenario, the driver may well fluff it up anyway.

But, in that case, there has to be a realistic expectation that every now and again there’s going to be a consequence of this, in this case in the form of a potentially high-profile delay, worse of course if it’s for example a hot day and the train is stuck somewhere, or whatever.

Realistic expectations. Whilst there’s certainly scope for booking offices to be better in general, it does seem to be a RailUK Forums bandwagon to bash them. It does have to be borne in mind that many people here are likely to be seeking more obscure forms of ticket, so there are going to be a disproportionate number of issues compared to the average Joe Public.

It’s perhaps also fair to point out that enthusiasts may *think* they know best on something, but this isn’t always necessarily so. I could point to a type of train where one could learn the defect book from start to finish and be able to recite every procedure perfectly, but still not be able to get the said type of train moving when one has sat down, due to various curved balls which are inevitably thrown up on the day. This is where experience comes in, and not every booking clerk is going to have that.

Quite - but the circumstances are a little different - there is no choice as to whether defects occur or not. In the case of fares/ticketing, 'Management' (in its widest sense), has the choice of offering products or not. Modern day school of thought would be 'If the product is that complicated, or rarely used, that staff with a reasonably inexpensive minimum training are having problems answering and dealing with your customers questions and sales, either simplify the product or bin it'.

 

[eroded]

The funny thing for me is, I only go to a ticket office when I have something weird and complex! If it's a simple point to point ticket I can do it myself on a TVM.

So I expect ticket office staff to be well-versed in weird and complex tickets!

I had a proper shocker at Euston the other month - arrived from St Pancras off an early morning Eurostar, got to Euston around 9am wishing to catch the 09:20 to Stockport:

Me: "I'd like a Euro Saver Single from London International (CIV) to Stockport, please" <shows Eurostar ticket>
Euston man: "There's no point as it's the same price as a normal off-peak single"
Me: "The ticket conditions are more generous and I'd still like it please"
Euston man: "That'll be £68.30 <or whatever>"
Me: <Pays>
Euston man: <Hands me a bloody normal off-peak single, which isn't valid on the 09:20 I want to catch!>
Me: "This isn't the ticket I explicitly told you I wanted!"

We then had to faff around refunding that ticket and eventually getting my Euro Saver Single only without 2 minutes to spare for the 09:20.

If I had missed that train I'd be fuming!

--

Edit: Add for colour, I don't want this to be a whinge as there are many great and wonderful and knowledgable ticket staff out there - Marylebone and York come to mind as recent great experiences.

Also obviously there is no excuse for rudeness and abuse from passengers, I can only imagine staff must get it a lot and hard to put up with. I always make a point of being smiling and friendly and polite.

 

[Cambus731]

Reading this thread has reminded me what an absolute nightmare working your around the ticketing system can be.
And no one gets it right everything. No matter how experienced they are. I have been employed by the railway since 1988, and yet I've only just realised I made a mistake the other day.
As most people reading this forum will know Senior Railcards cannot be used on journeys wholly within the Network Railcard area until such time as cheap day returns be one available. This restriction was introduced by Network SouthEast in about 1993. They never said as much, but it was obviously because they were getting desperate for revenue. I had someone buying a ticket and wishin to catch a particular train to Norwich. I don't know why, but I had a mental lapse and was thinking that she couldn't use her Railcards until the CDR became available. Hence I looked up the time when one can use CDRs to Norwich, and politely and sympathetically imformed her, wrongly, that she couldn't use her Railcards on that train.
So unfortunately I did make a human error on that occasion. That was nothing to do with knowledge or the lack of it. I'm very sorry to say that on that one occasion I made an error. I personally would like to see that restriction rescinded now. Not just because of my error, but I've always felt it was a bit of a draconian measure and not relevant in the post covid world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The funny thing for me is, I only go to a ticket office when I have something weird and complex! If it's a simple point to point ticket I can do it myself on a TVM.

So I expect ticket office staff to be well-versed in weird and complex tickets!

I had a proper shocker at Euston the other month - arrived from St Pancras off an early morning Eurostar, got to Euston around 9am wishing to catch the 09:20 to Stockport:

Me: "I'd like a Euro Saver Single from London International (CIV) to Stockport, please" <shows Eurostar ticket>
Euston man: "There's no point as it's the same price as a normal off-peak single"
Me: "The ticket conditions are more generous and I'd still like it please"
Euston man: "That'll be £68.30 <or whatever>"
Me: <Pays>
Euston man: <Hands me a bloody normal off-peak single, which isn't valid on the 09:20 I want to catch!>
Me: "This isn't the ticket I explicitly told you I wanted!"

We then had to faff around refunding that ticket and eventually getting my Euro Saver Single only without 2 minutes to spare for the 09:20.

If I had missed that train I'd be fuming!

--

Edit: Add for colour, I don't want this to be a whinge as there are many great and wonderful and knowledgable ticket staff out there - Marylebone and York come to mind as recent great experiences.

Also obviously there is no excuse for rudeness and abuse from passengers, I can only imagine staff must get it a lot and hard to put up with. I always make a point of being smiling and friendly and polite.

What is the point in using the Euro High Saver when you've definitely made the connection you want to make?

 

[Watershed]

What is the point in using the Euro High Saver when you've definitely made the connection you want to make?

As the quoted post said, an ordinary Off-Peak Single wouldn't be valid on the 09:20. However, for the same price, a Euro High Saver would be.

 

[RJ]

Speaking from the perspective of doing the job for more than 10 years.

I deliberately don't memorise much about railway ticketing at all, because things change, often without us knowing and knowledge becomes out of date quickly. I come from a background where I've had to carry out research - so make a point of knowing how and where to look things up rapidly and accurately. And always with the interpretation that's most favourable to the customer. Sometimes there's no choice but to ask somebody else how to do certain things as the systems aren't always intuitive enough to find things from trial and error or in a manual.

Part of the cause of friction is the assessment process for the role - not every TOC considers the ability to look things up as necessary for the role hence they don't test for it. Some TOCs don't carry out any assessments at all and see the role as somewhere to place people who are no longer able to do whatever other role they were doing on the basis that it can't be that hard to collect money and hand over a ticket.

It is true that the quality of service varies greatly. It's just one part of culture in the UK and sometimes you have to do your best to tactfully guide people into helping. It's not even just ticket offices. I go into certain shops to use services that the cashier has probably not come across often, if at all. For instance I used to use a helpful but little know service in a supermarket and had to basically learn at least four till systems myself then train virtually every member of staff I came across on how to do it. Similar with Paypoint. Patience and politeness goes a long way to getting a positive result. You can complain about training and how things should be until you're blue in the face but sometimes there are other ways to get what you need.