Why do some stations leave automatic ticket barriers open?

[bleeder4]

Manchester Piccadilly and Kings Cross have a habit of leaving ticket gates open, I can only imagine they do it to ease congestion. Not once at stations like Liverpool St or Paddington have I ever seen open ticket barriers in all my 10 years of using those stations. Is it to do with ToCs or Network rail?

The last three times I've boarded a train at Paddington the barriers were opened due to the rush of people. I always arrive at Paddington and look on RTT to see what platform my train departs from, or I look at the arrival board to see what platform it will be arriving into. I then position myself by the barrier to the relevant platform so I can be first onto the train and get a good seat. The platform number than eventually appears on the departure board and boarding is permitted, so I nip quickly through. 9 times out of 10 I'll then look back when I'm up the platform and will see that GWR staff have opened the barriers due to the all the masses of other passengers all scrambling to get onto the platform.

 

[Kite159]

The last three times I've boarded a train at Paddington the barriers were opened due to the rush of people. I always arrive at Paddington and look on RTT to see what platform my train departs from, or I look at the arrival board to see what platform it will be arriving into. I then position myself by the barrier to the relevant platform so I can be first onto the train and get a good seat. The platform number than eventually appears on the departure board and boarding is permitted, so I nip quickly through. 9 times out of 10 I'll then look back when I'm up the platform and will see that GWR staff have opened the barriers due to the all the masses of other passengers all scrambling to get onto the platform.

Paddington is quite good at having the barriers at the main concourse end in operation when having the barriers on the overbridge wide open.

 

[Mainsideman]

Waterloos barriers are closed from start of service to end of service, approximately 20 hours a day. The longest I am aware off.

 

[Horizon22]

I am sure they do, and do absolutely nothing about them.

It certainly used to be part of station performance metrics (KPIs and such) pre-pandemic, although not sure it's followed up on much.

 

[Halish Railway]

Outside of the UK, I have never seen the barriers at Amsterdam Central closed in the times I’ve been there.

 

[plugwash]

Paddington is quite good at having the barriers at the main concourse end in operation when having the barriers on the overbridge wide open.

At least according to https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/London-Paddington-Station-Map.pdf, the barriers at paddington appear to be quite a mess, with seperate sets of barriers for 2-5, 6/7 and 10-12, no barriers at all for platforms 1,8 and 9 and the barriers for 6/7 to the overbridge being on the platform, laeving the "country" end of those platforms unbarriered.

I presume the mess is a result of trying to accomodate heathrow express oyster/contactless fares.

 

[swt_passenger]

At least according to https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/London-Paddington-Station-Map.pdf, the barriers at paddington appear to be quite a mess, with seperate sets of barriers for 2-5, 6/7 and 10-12, no barriers at all for platforms 1,8 and 9 and the barriers for 6/7 to the overbridge being on the platform, laeving the "country" end of those platforms unbarriered.

Paddington is a bit of a ‘work in progress’, platforms 8/9 have an approved planning application, (Apr 2021), the drawings show P2-14 within one common gated area. P8/9 will no longer be a public thoroughfare.

Is it currently being done? Or yet to start?

 

[ScottGallagher]

Aren't barriers meant to be a security measure as well, what's the point in going to the expense of having them just to leave them open at night when that's when people are most vulnerable to being mugged on board etc.

 

[Haywain]

what's the point in going to the expense of having them just to leave them open at night

Because they can't be operational without being staffed.

 

[Mordac]

Moor Street seems to have the barriers open a lot less often the New Street does!

 

[plugwash]

Aren't barriers meant to be a security measure as well,

Reducing the number of undesirables on the network is certainly an affect of barriers, but I don;t think it's the main reason for putting them in.

what's the point in going to the expense of having them just to leave them open at night

The point of measures like ticket barriers and penalty fare schemes is to get the "pay when challenged" crowed to actually pay.

Singles in the UK are usually barely cheaper than day returns, so on local services you really only need to "grip" each passenger once on a given day to extract the fare, with a penalty fares scheme in place you probably don't even need that. By the late evening most passengers have paid already, so the return on investment of further ticket checking is likely fairly small

 

[ScottGallagher]

Reducing the number of undesirables on the network is certainly an affect of barriers, but I don;t think it's the main reason for putting them in.


The point of measures like ticket barriers and penalty fare schemes is to get the "pay when challenged" crowed to actually pay.

Singles in the UK are usually barely cheaper than day returns, so on local services you really only need to "grip" each passenger once on a given day to extract the fare, with a penalty fares scheme in place you probably don't even need that. By the late evening most passengers have paid already, so the return on investment of further ticket checking is likely fairly small

But the undesireables are most likely not to have a ticket either or at least the correct one if they know barriers are always open.
By the late evening certainly on the Southeastern metro area it's pretty much a freebie with barely any likelihood of being challenged, checked or issued a penalty fare. I imagine similar on others around London.

 

[Class800]

Because they can't be operational without being staffed.

They can be - provided there is a video link to somewhere staff are. This is done for some stations' rear exits such as Exeter Central

 

[Haywain]

They can be - provided there is a video link to somewhere staff are. This is done for some stations' rear exits such as Exeter Central

So they are staffed.

 

[JonathanH]

They can be - provided there is a video link to somewhere staff are. This is done for some stations' rear exits such as Exeter Central

Yes, but the member of staff still needs to be at the station. What would be much more powerful and allow almost all stations to be gated for longer is someone in a central control room doing that monitoring at multiple stations.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, but the member of staff still needs to be at the station. What would be much more powerful and allow almost all stations to be gated for longer is someone in a central control room doing that monitoring at multiple stations.

I expect that is out of the question due to emergency procedures.

 

[Fenchurch SP]

Yes, but the member of staff still needs to be at the station. What would be much more powerful and allow almost all stations to be gated for longer is someone in a central control room doing that monitoring at multiple stations.

While paper tickets are still being used you would need somebody to retrieve them when they get stuck in the machine.

 

[Class800]

While paper tickets are still being used you would need somebody to retrieve them when they get stuck in the machine.

Some places can't retrieve tickets if swallowed even now, according to people I know

 

[skyhigh]

Some places can't retrieve tickets if swallowed even now, according to people I know

Not 'can't' but 'won't'. If it's not possible to get tickets back out what happens when the bin is full?

 

[johntea]

While paper tickets are still being used you would need somebody to retrieve them when they get stuck in the machine.

Not just stuck but many barriers still don't even accept the basics!

e.g. I bought a Castleford - Manchester return, which the barriers at Leeds outright reject for whatever reason despite being a perfectly valid (in fact perhaps the only valid!) route, so to break the journey there just to get a coffee on the main concourse or whatever I have to find a member of staff to let me out and back in manually, they still haven't sorted it after many years (a paper based ticket, perhaps eTicket would work)

 

[ert47]

Not 'can't' but 'won't'. If it's not possible to get tickets back out what happens when the bin is full?

I'm only familiar with the Cubic E1/E2 gates used around the Southern network (similar machines are used by other TOCs and TfL)

Some older gates have a mechanism that holds the last 5 (or so) tickets before they go into the bin within the gate which makes ticket retrieval easy.

However many of the newer type machines dump all the tickets straight into the bin. They're not always going to end up in the same position every time - which means if the bin hasnt been emptied for a while (many people may have used the gates during the course of the day), it can take some time to locate an errant ticket.

IIRC there was something about the ticket count being messed up if you were to remove the bin in the newer gates.

 

[riceuten]

Not just stuck but many barriers still don't even accept the basics!

e.g. I bought a Castleford - Manchester return, which the barriers at Leeds outright reject for whatever reason despite being a perfectly valid (in fact perhaps the only valid!) route, so to break the journey there just to get a coffee on the main concourse or whatever I have to find a member of staff to let me out and back in manually, they still haven't sorted it after many years (a paper based ticket, perhaps eTicket would work)

I have this frequently, on the rare occasions that the gates are in operation at the weekend in Stevenage. The gates reject tickets that have been bought with a Network Card (I presume to check if you actually have one). But the reality is that the staff are too busy dealing with the fare dodgers and just wave you through. I have my SmartCard programmed to apply a Network Card discount (which it does sporadically) and never get stopped on the rare occasions the gates are operational and there's someone around.

 

[43172]

Not just stuck but many barriers still don't even accept the basics!

e.g. I bought a Castleford - Manchester return, which the barriers at Leeds outright reject for whatever reason despite being a perfectly valid (in fact perhaps the only valid!) route, so to break the journey there just to get a coffee on the main concourse or whatever I have to find a member of staff to let me out and back in manually, they still haven't sorted it after many years (a paper based ticket, perhaps eTicket would work)

I have that issue when travelling to/from Paddington, so much so i'm more surprised when the ticket barriers open without rejecting my ticket. It's also happened at Birmingham New Street, having once had an Exeter to Birmingam International ticket rejected when trying to change platforms. It does happen at other stations every so often but both Paddington and Brimingham NS can be a pain.

I quite often travel to Exeter St Davids, yet apart from the evenings it can be a random guess wether the barriers will be open during the day, sometimes they can be open at mid morning yet other times not.

 

[BurtonM]

I generally find the gates are closed and in use at Manchester Piccadilly, but they're open occasionally.

However they're completely pointless as everyone knows you can get around them using the lift from the street to P13/14, and just use the overbridge to get to any platform.

 

[plugwash]

I use that lift from time to time and I rarely see anyone else using it. So either the faredodgers don't know about it, i'm not travelling at the same time as the faredodgers or the risk of being "gripped" by a memeber of rail staff when leaving the lift is too high.

 

[Mainsideman]

Yes, but the member of staff still needs to be at the station. What would be much more powerful and allow almost all stations to be gated for longer is someone in a central control room doing that monitoring at multiple stations.

This would never work for busy stations..

 

[Parallel]

The barriers at Swindon always seem to be open when I use that station, even with the gateline staff just stood next to them. They seem to be opened whenever a train arrives on Platform 4, probably to mitigate passengers queuing down the stairs. I think they should be moved further out of the subway towards the ticket office/lobby, with potentially a new entry point needed for the ticket office. Either way, the current set up isn't really fit for purpose.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Since automatic ticket barriers are a subject of this thread, as one who sees North-West England as home territory, why are the banks of barriers at Manchester Victoria station of a different type to those more recently introduced elsewhere in the region? Are there any plans to replace these with the newer versions?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not to mention Grand Central services where they allow on-train sales

And Hull Trains/LUMO too, I believe?

 

[JonathanH]

Since automatic ticket barriers are a subject of this thread, as one who sees North-West England as home territory, why are the banks of barriers at Manchester Victoria station of a different type to those more recently introduced elsewhere in the region? Are there any plans to replace these with the newer versions?

They were just the ones which Northern (and East Coast) specified when they had their first wave of gafeline installation. As I recall, they are also fitted at Manchester Oxford Road and Blackpool North (and were fitted at Leeds).