Why do some passengers tell silly lies?

[mumrar]

I went through doing tickets on a New St-Leicester as soon as we were out of the platform. Worth pointing out it was platform 10a, and it's right at the end as the forming unit terminated from Stansted. First Class was my end, and the first passenger I encountered had a standard class ticket. The conversation went like this -
Me :'were you wanting to upgrade, as you are travelling in first class?'
Him: 'I sat here because there's no seats anywhere else'
Me: 'Did you check the front of the train? Everyone boards at the rear doors which fills this carriage'
Him: 'Yes I did, and there were no seats'
Me: 'Excuse me a moment please'
So I walked off to the very front of the train. Whilst heading back to first class, I counted 52 seats free in the front carriage and 50 free in the second carriage. This did p!$$ me off a little, so another conversation ensued.
Me: 'Which of the 102 empty seats at the front did you have difficulty in seeing' I realise this is sarcastic, but he's lied to me.
Him: '102? Really?'
Me: 'Yes, why are you surprised, being s you've already walked up there to check for yourself?'
Him: 'I don't like your attitude'
Me: 'I don't appreciate being lied to, so that makes us about even. How will you be paying for your upgrade?'
Him: 'Oh, if there are seats available I'll move, I didn't know'
Me: 'Didn't know what? That there were free seats? You've just told me you walked up there to check and there wasn't any'
Him: 'That's because I didn't think there was any'
Me: 'But why did you tell me that there weren't, because you had checked, when you quite clearly had not?'
Him: 'So why do I have to pay?'
Me: 'Because you lied in an attempt to avoid the upgrade for sitting in First Class. I think that's covered in law by attempting to obtain goods or services by deception' - It's worth pointing out I had no intention of following payment up, but it's also worth noting another three people had sloped out by this point. The conversation finished when I said he should take the opportunity to find himself some leg room around an empty 4 seat table, but why do people feel the need to lie in this kind of scenario? What is the possible gain or worth in it? If it had been one of our Revenue Inspectors, who seem very fond of their warrant cards, it could have ended very differently.

Discuss, and try to avoid the rather tedious jobsworth insults, the drawn out conversation was to attempt to highlight the error of his ways to this passenger only, I would only have sought payment if he refused to move.

 

[rail-britain]

When I worked on InterCity we didn't even bother with the argument, we would just simply start "writing out" the excess ticket...
"That will be £70 please"

On the fares book the top page was a sample but to such passengers it looked like you were writing them a ticket
"er, er, I'll move"

However, I did have a group of four passengers that refused to move once
The incoming Senior Conductor at Newcastle didn't want the issue, so put out a PA announcement, that soon moved them!

 

[EltonRoad]

Don't blame you at all. It is a two-way process to some degree, and if they try and defraud the system then they should pay for it (verbally or fiscally). I think you were right to see how many free seats there were, I'd have done exactly the same thing. Showed himself in his true colours, I'm afraid.

 

[Aictos]

Nope you didn't nothing wrong there - just quickly though you don't work any further East then Leicester do you?

 

[mumrar]

Nope you didn't nothing wrong there - just quickly though you don't work any further East then Leicester do you?

Right the way to Stansted I work.

 

[yorkie]

Discuss, and try to avoid the rather tedious jobsworth insults.

You were not jobsworthy enough You should have made him upgrade

 

[37401]

Had one today that must have been a lie as what nut would buy a seat for a bag, big guy shifts an elderly Indian woman tapping away at her laptop as he reserved the seats, all 4 of them yet there was only 3 of them, his bag had a seat of it's own, I often see this, bags having a seat and passengers having to stand do these people not know what that overhead thingy is for

 

[CarterUSM]

On another note, on the rare occasions that I have been accused of having an 'attitude' I've always felt and replied that it isn't the case and that it is they haven't liked what they have been told. People don't like to be told they are in the wrong, or what to do, even when done so in the politest and well mannered way possible.

 

[mrcheek]

In answer to the thread's initial question, I guess its because all people are basically just lying scumbags.

 

[CarterUSM]

It's most likely he was just trying his luck anyway, perhaps expecting you to accept the 'fact'. Though he may have just had a chip on his shoulder anyway.

 

[bengolding]

I went through doing tickets on a New St-Leicester as soon as we were out of the platform. Worth pointing out it was platform 10a, and it's right at the end as the forming unit terminated from Stansted. First Class was my end, and the first passenger I encountered had a standard class ticket. The conversation went like this -

Great to see that XC have First Advance fares now their Birmingham - Stansted route. However, when I asked XC why none existed on the quieter Birmingham - Leicester route, they said this was because these trains were non-reservable. The result is that the First comparmtent is almost always empty during the day and at weekeneds (XC don't even do Weekend First on this route) aside from during the peaks. At other times, it's always rail staff or those with free passes in there. To use First on these trains, I have to buy First Anytime tickets. Even on the Stansted trains, I always have to pay for hot drinks from the trolley with a First ticket as XC aren't prepared to offer this limited service as complimentary when they
charge ridiculous rates for First Anytime tickets.

Talking of Standard customers in First, Virgin are really poor at checking First at certain points in their network, e.g. west of Coventry and between Lancaster-Warrington. Always get Standard customers in there who 'didn't know it was First Class' when the Train Manager comes along. Why can't Virgin do what EMT do and give ticketing duties to their First Class hosts to ensure those in First actually have a First ticket? There's normally at least 2-4 First Class hosts per Pendolino.

 

[Aictos]

Right the way to Stansted I work.

Well you've probably encountered me at some point then as any time I need to get between Peterborough and Cambridge, it's a safe bet I will be on a XC service.

The only thing I'm not keen on is these 2 car 170s, why can't XC have the NXEA 3 car 170s and let NXEA have the XC 2 car 170s instead to run Peterborough to Ipswich and have a all electric service onwards to London?

 

[EM2]

On another note, on the rare occasions that I have been accused of having an 'attitude' I've always felt and replied that it isn't the case and that it is they haven't liked what they have been told. People don't like to be told they are in the wrong, or what to do, even when done so in the politest and well mannered way possible.

Good point. It's like being told that you're a jobsworth, when all you've done is politely ask someone to not do something even when it's illegal e.g ride their bike through the station

 

[leshuttle]

I think what this all boils down to is the "private transport attitude" where passengers are unable to handle the concept of using a mode of transport which, unlike a car, you have to share with and possibly sit with other strangers. They almost want a whole carriage to themselves to avoid other people who might, god forbid, attempt to converse with them during the journey.

I see weary commuters every day trawl up a semi-full rush-hour train all the way from coach 1 to 12 expecting to find half a carriage to themselves by coach 3 they deem it full and decide to plump down in first class.

Oh and don't get me started on passengers who put their feet on seats (it all links back to the sharing public transport compromises matter).

 

[CarterUSM]

Good point. It's like being told that you're a jobsworth, when all you've done is politely ask someone to not do something even when it's illegal e.g ride their bike through the station

Indeed, i generally consider the term 'jobsworth', the last stand of the wrongdoer, i've never quite understood why doing your job correctly is wrong!!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Indeed, i generally consider the term 'jobsworth', the last stand of the wrongdoer, i've never quite understood why doing your job correctly is wrong!!

If I had a £ for each time I was called a jobsworth, I would be a millionaire and could retire by now.

Without exception it is towards the end of a conversation where I have pointed out the having no railcard / having an out of date railcard / sitting in first class / being on the wrong train with Advance ticket etc will require them to pay me some more money. And when they do the "I want your name" routine (probably in some vague hope that I'll be scared of the thought of being complained about and will relent and let them off) I normally respond by saying "please do write in, my manager will be delighted to hear I am doing my job properly".


But, yes, people's lies really do get silly at times. It's like they think I haven't heard it all a million times before.
"I've picked up the old railcard by mistake " = I never renewed it hoping I would get away with it for a lot longer.
"I've left my railcard at home" = I haven't really got one.
"well nobody told me that" = someone did tell me, but I chose to ignore them and try and get away with it.
"I never got another bit / I've lost the reservation" = I have an advance ticket which I know isn't valid on this train but If I conveniently loose the reservation ticket you can't see that and might let me off.

 

[CarterUSM]

If I had a £ for each time I was called a jobsworth, I would be a millionaire and could retire by now.

Without exception it is towards the end of a conversation where I have pointed out the having no railcard / having an out of date railcard / sitting in first class / being on the wrong train with Advance ticket etc will require them to pay me some more money. And when they do the "I want your name" routine (probably in some vague hope that I'll be scared of the thought of being complained about and will relent and let them off) I normally respond by saying "please do write in, my manager will be delighted to hear I am doing my job properly".


But, yes, people's lies really do get silly at times. It's like they think I haven't heard it all a million times before.
"I've picked up the old railcard by mistake " = I never renewed it hoping I would get away with it for a lot longer.
"I've left my railcard at home" = I haven't really got one.
"well nobody told me that" = someone did tell me, but I chose to ignore them and try and get away with it.
"I never got another bit / I've lost the reservation" = I have an advance ticket which I know isn't valid on this train but If I conveniently loose the reservation ticket you can't see that and might let me off.

Indeed, i'd have more respect for someone if they actually said, 'i thought i'd chance it'!

 

[rail-britain]

I recently had a ding-dong with a member of FSR staff at Glasgow Central
I had parked my car at the NCP
I then went to the exit to Glasgow Central and was REFUSED entry as I didn't have a train ticket
I pointed out that a ticket was only necessary when travelling or intending to travel, not at the exit of a car park!

The purpose of my visit to the station was to visit the Station Managers office, but the member of staff was only interested in a ticket
So I then asked if I could be issued with a platform ticket so that I could make my way to the concourse!

This numpty was reported on my arrival to the Station Managers office
About two hours later this member of staff then appeared and was adamant that he had been advised that anyone exiting the car park had to have a train ticket
When asked how many people who did not have a train ticket had been refused, "all of them"
We agreed there was an error in procedure there, how is someone who is parking their car supposed to get access to the station to purchase a ticket when they are being refused access to the station
Seems people won't complain, and went to the street exit

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I'm going to be honest with you Mumrar.

I'm glad there are people out there trying to ensure everyone pays for what they receive and respect other people. Having worked in security, it is immensly annoying that people believe that they are entitled to whatever they want for whatever reason. Asking him to pay for the upgrade is entirely the correct thing to do - hell, kick his arse off the train if he has a problem.

However,

The jobsworth argument has reared its head and, from your account of the discussion you had with him, it is easy to see why people come to be known as jobsworths. Doing your job would have been to see if there were seats available and asking him to move or pay for an upgrade and then taking it further if the situation arose.

But, by your own admission, you were sarcastic with him. Not only that, you were sarcastic with him after you had gone and counted EACH AND EVERY ONE of the 102 available seats. Which makes it completely unsurprising that he questioned your attitude. At the end of the day, you are completely in the right and I agree whole heartedly but the confrontation was completely avoidable.

That is why people get labelled as jobsworths. It is not the fact that they are doing their job but rather the smug and petty one-upmanship in the face of simple common sense.

 

[north]

I sure there are people who do lie and squirm. But we exist as a forum to discuss at length the remarkably complicated rules the passengers and staff alike are placed under. If we sometimes find it hard to understand what is valid what chance does an ordinary member of the public?

"I've picked up the old railcard by mistake " = I never renewed it hoping I would get away with it for a lot longer.

Well that's possible. Is there a rule like with season tickets whereby you can get a PF and/or additional rail tickets canceled once in a year if you send in a copy of your railcard? If so would you recommend this a passenger?

"I've left my railcard at home" = I haven't really got one.

Similar to above. This actually happened to me about a year ago (when I was young enough to have a YP). It had dropped out of my pocket when leaving the house. Found guard on NXEC train who believed me.

"well nobody told me that" = someone did tell me, but I chose to ignore them and try and get away with it.

I have really lost count of the amount of times this has happened to me. I have repeatedly been told differing information on the validity of routes and ticket restrictions. It is horrible to be told one is lying in such circumstances. Fortunately I now arm myself with knowledge (sadly often more than those who work in the industry) as to what is OK.

"I never got another bit / I've lost the reservation" = I have an advance ticket which I know isn't valid on this train but If I conveniently loose the reservation ticket you can't see that and might let me off.

Yeah I'll give you that one...

 

[First class]

I sure there are people who do lie and squirm. But we exist as a forum to discuss at length the remarkably complicated rules the passengers and staff alike are placed under. If we sometimes find it hard to understand what is valid what chance does an ordinary member of the public?


Well that's possible. Is there a rule like with season tickets whereby you can get a PF and/or additional rail tickets canceled once in a year if you send in a copy of your railcard? If so would you recommend this a passenger?

No, you would still lose your appeal. It's your job to carry the railcard, ensure it's valid and to produce it when required. Indeed, you sign two documents to confirm this, a) the application form, b) the railcard itself.

It's not a question of whether they have one at home or not, it's a simple matter of fact:

They DO have a railcard - fine.
They DONT have a railcard- they pay the outstanding fare.

Same as a Penalty Fare, intention is irrelevant, it is matter of fact. You either have or don't have a ticket.

 

[googolplex]

Same as a Penalty Fare, intention is irrelevant, it is matter of fact. You either have or don't have a ticket.

Unless you were unable to buy one before travel, then intention does come into it.

 

[Helvellyn]

Indeed, i'd have more respect for someone if they actually said, 'i thought i'd chance it'!

Yep, the scroats are like that and I generally have more respect for them as they treat it as a big game. At least they admit they try to chance it.

I was on a NXEA service from Cambridge last week and a group of kids were in First Class (I was sat in Standard next to the doors). If anyone came in they were going to use their GCSE French and claim tto have no English. I think the fact three of them were wearing England tops might have made an Revenue Staff suspicious though lol.

A colleague of mine, when called a jobsworth, always replies that "if a job's worth doing it's worth doing properly." That usually shuts the person up she finds!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not a question of whether they have one at home or not, it's a simple matter of fact:

They DO have a railcard - fine.
They DONT have a railcard- they pay the outstanding fare.

London Midland, on their trains, have Penalty Fare posters and use failure to carry a valid railcard as one of the example reasons for why you could receive one. The fact that they need to put that up there alongside no ticket, over distance and being in First on a Standard tickets suggests it's maybe one of their more common ticketing problems. Besides a Penalty Fare the other option is be sold a new full-price ticket, as the lack of a railcard makes the discounted ticket invalid. Excessing the ticket is not the correct thing to do, and I point out to my colleagues who do this that the people who chance buying discounted tickets at TVMs when they don't have a railcard don't lose out by having to pay a simple excess to what they should have paid. (Same principle applies to those who chance it in First and who expect to pay the difference when caught when in fact it should be a full-price First Class ticket.)

 

[clagmonster]

In the case of someone pretending to not speak English in order to avoid paying the correct fare, I would see that as fare evasion and as such I hope that the law sees it in the same way. Similarly in the case of passengers sitting in first class with a second class ticket claiming there to be no empty seats when there are several near to the first class compartment. If these cases are prosecutable, I would hope that action is taken, although I do appreciate that in some cases staff either do not have sufficient time or have the required training to instigate this process.
When filing a report for prosecution is not the appropriate action or is not possible, the Conditions of carriage have this to say on the matter:
"If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation
without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the
carriage), you will have to pay:
(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket
for the accommodation you have used; or
(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Condition 4 states:
"4. Penalty Fares
Penalty Fares are charged by Train Companies at some stations and in some trains. You
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
...
(b) you travel in a class of accommodation for which the ticket is not valid; or"
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

So it is a case of an excess fare, or if on a penalty fare train boarding at a penalty fare station, a penalty fare. I don't see that there is a case for a new ticket being sold. I also believe that guard's would be within their rights to charge the excess without giving the passenger the option to move. As the vast majority of first class accommodation is clearly marked, I see this as fair game.

In the case of a passenger travelling without a railcard, I agree that the rules state that they should be sold a new ticket in all cases. However, I believe that for passengers boarding at unstaffed stations, they should be sold an excess to the undiscounted fare provided they inform the guard that they have lost/forgotton their railcard before being asked for it. Whilst the rules don't seem to allow this, I have seen guards do this before. I also believe that booking offices should have the facility to do this.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I sure there are people who do lie and squirm. But we exist as a forum to discuss at length the remarkably complicated rules the passengers and staff alike are placed under. If we sometimes find it hard to understand what is valid what chance does an ordinary member of the public?


Well that's possible. Is there a rule like with season tickets whereby you can get a PF and/or additional rail tickets canceled once in a year if you send in a copy of your railcard? If so would you recommend this a passenger?

Similar to above. This actually happened to me about a year ago (when I was young enough to have a YP). It had dropped out of my pocket when leaving the house. Found guard on NXEC train who believed me.

I have really lost count of the amount of times this has happened to me. I have repeatedly been told differing information on the validity of routes and ticket restrictions. It is horrible to be told one is lying in such circumstances. Fortunately I now arm myself with knowledge (sadly often more than those who work in the industry) as to what is OK.

Yeah I'll give you that one...

To be fair, there are genuine cases where my original points are perfectly true, and you can normally tell who they are. However, when you hear - as I do - the same excuses, time and time again, day after day, and on most days the same excuse trotted out a number of times on the same train - I find it incredibly hard to believe that everybody who tells me these excuses has actually forgotten their railcard or similar.

As I explain every time in the case of Railcards, politely of course, No railcard = ticket not valid = buy a whole new ticket again as though you didn't have a ticket at all. I am sorry to those who think I should show some compassion and common sense now and then, but I have heard the same old excuses so many times that now there are no exceptions, no excuses, no letting people off. If they have any problems I politely give them my badge number and suggest they contact customer relations.

 

[northwichcat]

Going back to the original post. Isn't it the case that IF someone sits in FC with a standard class ticket and said they sat in FC by mistake that they should be told to move or buy an upgrade rather than be forced to buy an upgrade?

Obviously in this case it appears that the person in question was trying to get themselves a free upgrade by claiming standard class was overcrowded as it's mentioned the ticket check was done straight after leaving the origin station.

 

[4SRKT]

I've said this before on threads like this, but it's worth repeating. We on here are experts in using the railway compared to most normals. Decent guards will be even more so. The ticketing system is extremely complex, and sometimes the best intentioned people will get it wrong. I'm sure kwvr45 is right much of the time in his rather cynical assumption that people are simply liars or chancers, but it simply cannot be the case all the time: genuine mistakes must happen sometimes. Inflexibility from staff in the face of a complex system that even enthusiasts struggle with sometimes is something that does the railway no favours in terms of its public image.

I'm referring more to people not understanding the complexities of which tickets are valid on which trains etc, rather than sitting in first class or forgetting railcards, which is a bit more black and white. I've forgotten my railcard on occasion, and just have to accept that it's tough luck and there'll be no discounts today.

 

[Greenback]

In this case, it seems clear that the customer was indeed lying and trying it on, and it's these sorts of occasions that stick in the mind of staff. It's then more likely that they will have a cynical view of soemone in similar circumstances i.e. sitting in FC with a standard ticket.

But it can be much harder to tell what is FC on some services these days, compared to BR days with the yellow stripes, a big 1 on every door, window stickers and anti maccassars on the headrests! FGW even had a declassified FC coach in the middle of an HST for a while! then you get the cases where there is no first class symbol in the timetable, so it might be declassified and you can sit anywhere, so it;s no wonder some people become genuinely confused!

As I say though, this is not the case with the original post!

 

[4SRKT]

As I say though, this is not the case with the original post!

True enough, but the thread moved on to encompass more general assumptions about the honesty or otherwise of people 'trying it on'. I'm sure experienced guards such as kwvr45 develop a sort of sixth sense that the rest of us don't have, but in some of his posts he does seem very black and white.

 

[jon0844]

I've heard people sitting in first class (ironically when it has been declassified anyway) say they'll sit nearest the doors and say they didn't notice it was first class if stopped.

And it's a common sight to see people move in, but stand by the doors, or put their bags in first class and then stand at the doorway - as if that doesn't count. In fact, that happens an awful lot. Seems you can stand partially in first class, even sit on the armrest, and claim that you weren't IN first class. The annoying thing is that not every RPI is a 'jobsworth' and often let people move. No wonder people then move further and further in when they know that they CAN and DO get away with it.