Why do so few trains have level access?

[Bletchleyite]

That is with a structure gauge that is flat sided almost down to rail level. The fact ours tapers in at and below platform height makes this more difficult.

It really doesn't. Unless you think Stadler are lying about implementing it for Merseyrail.

It does mean a "taper in" at the bottom, but if you remove the heating conduit the narrowing would be about the same as conventional stock with it.

 

[Domh245]

It really doesn't. Unless you think Stadler are lying about implementing it for Merseyrail.

But then we come back to the point about closed systems. You can quite easily implement level access on Merseyrail because it'll have a uniform fleet and near enough nothing else running through it. As soon as you start having to consider things like freight trains running through your system it becomes far more difficult to do without having impractically large horizontal offsets.

Edit to add: Just went to do a bit more research on it and came across this picture. @superkev will be happy to see that they've got retractable ramps underneath the doors!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But then we come back to the point about closed systems. You can quite easily implement level access on Merseyrail because it'll have a uniform fleet and near enough nothing else running through it. As soon as you start having to consider things like freight trains running through your system it becomes far more difficult to do without having impractically large horizontal offsets.

Edit to add: Just went to do a bit more research on it and came across this picture. @superkev will be happy to see that they've got retractable ramps underneath the doors!

Totally standard Stadler, just a UK curved shape rather than a Continental flat sided one.

FWIW, even on current stock Merseyrail have wide stepboards (about 8") so there is no gap even if there is a step.

 

[Taunton]

because there are ways to achieve proper level boarding as the Swiss have and as Merseyrail will)

The Merseyrail thing is interesting because the classic old emus on that system, which ran from the 1930s to 1985, had significant external steps at the sliding doors, which stuck out well beyond the bodywork. The current class 507 have the same there, yet the comparable bodied class 313 in London do not. I don't think any other group of rolling stock has had this. When the older units periodically were dragged to Horwich works for overhaul the steps had to be removed, and yet they were still belled on as out-of-gauge loads. I wonder if because of this background the Merseyrail platform clearances are somehow different to elsewhere.

 

[superkev]

Seems slightly pointless fitting all these bathroom sized toilets when wheelchairs can't get on the train without booking in advance.
K

 

[whhistle]

And how much is that going to cost at EVERY railway station in the UK? Then What if it fails stuck out? Line blocked for several hours... or it fails stuck in? Use a ramp that you would have used anyway...

Every railway station wouldn't need it though... there are more stations that have straight platfoirms than bendy ones :P

Things are more reliable these days so it would do more good than bad IMO - especially if you had a manual (mechanical) over ride to be able to winch it back in if required.

As stated already, the biggest flaw is that many stations do not have the same stock stopping. Some have the same stock but different lengths. So that would be the biggest non-starter for mainline.

As a wheelchair user myself, I'm not significantly inconveniencing anyone, presuming that I enquire politely well in advance of the departure time as to whether I might be able to make use of the ramp.

Don't EVER feel like you're inconveniencing anyone!
You have just as much right to travel as they do and if that means it takes a little extra time, so be it.

There are more and more people in this life that need to slow down a little more.

You may have a mobility disability but helping people to slow down and become more considerate is an ability they don't have.

 

[theironroad]

As a wheelchair user myself, my response to this is that I doubt that anything can be done above and beyond what has already been done. It's why the only trains I ever use are on heritage railways where time pressure isn't as much of a factor and where, therefore, I'm not significantly inconveniencing anyone, presuming that I enquire politely well in advance of the departure time as to whether I might be able to make use of the ramp.

You shouldn't feel that you're inconveniencing anyone by using a wheelchair on the mainline railway. I'm afraid to say your giving in to the railways inability to do enough to provide access for all. In the meantime, use the trains and despite your obvious consideration for others, let others worry about whether the train leaves a couple of minutes late.

 

[theironroad]

What about freight?

You ever been to Colchester town station?

Not exactly a hotbed of freight train movements.

 

[swt_passenger]

You ever been to Colchester town station?

Not exactly a hotbed of freight train movements.

Only needs one each way to mean the platforms have to fit?

 

[theironroad]

Only needs one each way to mean the platforms have to fit?

I doubt it's ever had freight, well maybe it had goods wagons of milk and papers at one point. It's perfectly fine for a line to be adapted and have it's route availability altered. Anyway, I digress. It's about wheelchair and mobility access.

 

[Domh245]

Colchester town, being a terminal station won't have much in the way of freight, but it does have the other problem that gets in the way of level access of having a curved track, and so you have to have a suitable offset (either horizontally, vertically, or both) to prevent the train fouling the platform. The only way to feasibly create level access would be to raise the platform at the straight end and have it slope down again to it's current low level to prevent fouling on the curve.

 

[marcouk2]

Even if there is no freight (or freight paths) scheduled to pass through most places will still have engineering wagons (with freight locos) needing to coming through from time to time as well as RHTT for certain lines.

 

[superkev]

People seem to be getting confused between level access which would indeed require difficult alterations to platforms and access for people with reduced mobility and wheelchairs which surely would only need a train mounted extending ramp preferably powered and of sufficient length to reach the lowest platform.
K

 

[alexl92]

Would there be issues with sealing the doors shut properly if a train had an extendable ramp at the bottom of them? Trains travel at far greater speeds than busses (BR 2nd Gen DMUs are 75 -90mph capable where a bus cannot exceed 62mph and in most cases will generally run at 30-40mph) and are subjected to far greater stresses in terms of lateral forces etc - for example on a 185, when two trains pass, if you're leaning on the door you can feel it move a bit. I'd imagine that also having a ramp designed to extend out would mean an extra potential point of failure in a critical place?

Also, all the busses near me either 'kneel' to offer level access - that is, lower the front left corner using suspension, or have ramps which the driver has to manually lift out - neither solution is practical on a train. Do ramps that extend out from the train automatically exist?

 

[theironroad]

Don't the pendolino trains already have extending footsteps/running boards that extend and retract as the train doors are released? Surely some sort of a similar system could be developed.

 

[Domh245]

If you look at the Stadler Merseyrail system, the step isn't an integral part of the door, it sits ever so slightly below them. It doesn't provide 100% level access but it should certainly be usable by people in wheelchairs, buggies, etc.

 

[Spartacus]

Even if there is no freight (or freight paths) scheduled to pass through most places will still have engineering wagons (with freight locos) needing to coming through from time to time as well as RHTT for certain lines.

Just one quick search for Colchester Town later.....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/30843245@N00/33839252390/

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

It also can be the train. Depended on the suspension and the load on it can cause the train to ride higher or lower.

 

[The_Engineer]

It also can be the train. Depended on the suspension and the load on it can cause the train to ride higher or lower.

Very true.... Most trains since 1990 have air bag suspension that maintains the train's floor height constant through all load conditions.

 

[DavidGrain]

My local station, Rowley Regis, has the two platforms at different heights. This is particularly noticeable when I travel on Chiltern trains. The worse case was when I was on a West Coast Railways excursion train and the steward in my carriage very kindly placed a mobile step on the platform for me. Both platforms are straight so it is nothing to do with curvature.

 

[route:oxford]

Ok. So, given that freight trains are unlikely to be passing through terminal stations, is there a good reason why the straight sections of platforms shouldn't have level access?

 

[HSTEd]

Well a lot of this is caused by the use of traditional ballasted track.

The track will shift over time to a far greater extent tha the likes of slab track.

 

[w0033944]

You shouldn't feel that you're inconveniencing anyone by using a wheelchair on the mainline railway. I'm afraid to say your giving in to the railways inability to do enough to provide access for all. In the meantime, use the trains and despite your obvious consideration for others, let others worry about whether the train leaves a couple of minutes late.

Thanks, but 'd rather not take the chance.

 

[philthetube]

Seems slightly pointless fitting all these bathroom sized toilets when wheelchairs can't get on the train without booking in advance.
K

Unless you are saying that people who book are organised enough to not require the toilet on a journey I am confused by this?

 

[pt_mad]

You shouldn't feel that you're inconveniencing anyone by using a wheelchair on the mainline railway. I'm afraid to say your giving in to the railways inability to do enough to provide access for all. In the meantime, use the trains and despite your obvious consideration for others, let others worry about whether the train leaves a couple of minutes late.

Although one positive is at least there are people employed in jobs assisting passengers with accessibility.

Presumably if it were all automated those grades would be out of work? Not that it shouldn't be, but that would presumably be the downside of automated ramps.


Likewise that's another interesting question. If access was level onto trains, and so no ramps required, would tocs still employ any staff to do booked assists? Are Mersey Rail planning to keep staff doing assists?

 

[theironroad]

Although one positive is at least there are people employed in jobs assisting passengers with accessibility.

Presumably if it were all automated those grades would be out of work? Not that it shouldn't be, but that would presumably be the downside of automated ramps.



Likewise that's another interesting question. If access was level onto trains, and so no ramps required, would tocs still employ any staff to do booked assists? Are Mersey Rail planning to keep staff doing assists?

Yes, it is an issue. At accessible stations, many if not most wheelchair users are fully independent apart from crossing that gap between platform and train, so yes automatic ramps would cut the workload of station staff, but at busy stations it is only one aspect of their duties.

For staff on trains it would take away a important role, though not only role by any means and this is one of the core issues of the southern et Al dispute and access groups have claimed that it has made things so for accessibility on Southern as the OBS isn't always guaranteed to be on a train.

 

[edwin_m]

Very true.... Most trains since 1990 have air bag suspension that maintains the train's floor height constant through all load conditions.

However these won't allow for variations in wheel diameter. Some trams (which generally don't have airbags) are shimmed when the wheels are turned/replaced to keep the floor height nominally constant, but I don't believe this happens with trains.

Incidentally air bag suspension is pretty much universal on British passenger trains from the 1970s onwards (Mk3 stock and PEP-derived multiple units), so almost everything in service today.

 

[Colind]

Thank you very much for your replies everybody, Lots of interesting stuff there.

I absolutely agree with those of you that pointed out that wheelchair users have a right to travel and shouldn’t worry about any slight delays they cause. The law is clear that we have a right to expect what is reasonable. It is reasonable to expect to travel. It is not reasonable to expect to travel on an IEP which is already running 30 minutes late and would be delayed further, when assistance has been booked on an earlier ATW service. This is what happened to me last week. I wrestled with my conscience for a couple of minutes and decided to get on the train I’d booked assistance for. So I still haven’t been on an IEP . At least when I do I won't have to worry about the uncomfortable seats .

I went to Berlin a couple of years ago and found that on the long-distance trains (Thalys/ICE) the height difference is much worse than in Britain. They use hydraulic lifts rather than ramps. In Berlin the S-Bahn, the above-ground metro, is all level access.

 

[apk55]

However these won't allow for variations in wheel diameter. Some trams (which generally don't have airbags) are shimmed when the wheels are turned/replaced to keep the floor height nominally constant, but I don't believe this happens with trains.

I recall seeing the 1973 tube stock had adjusters built into the bogie's to adjust the ride hight. Since clearances are very tight in the tunnels then this would make sense.
With airbag suspension it is easily possible to adjust ride hight as it defined by a simple linkage to an air valve.
Manchester Metrolink trams have level floor access, they seamed to have solved the problem of curved platforms by eliminating them!

 

[edwin_m]

I recall seeing the 1973 tube stock had adjusters built into the bogie's to adjust the ride hight. Since clearances are very tight in the tunnels then this would make sense.
With airbag suspension it is easily possible to adjust ride hight as it defined by a simple linkage to an air valve.
Manchester Metrolink trams have level floor access, they seamed to have solved the problem of curved platforms by eliminating them!

Metrolink has a few very slightly curved platforms on the original routes but none on later extensions. Nottingham has platforms on tighter curves on the outer reaches of the Hucknall line where they are on passing loops. The trams there have shorter body sections which means they can keep the steps close to the platforms.