Why do services from Edinburgh and Glasgow to Inverness take so long?

[RailWonderer]

What is the chance we see increased line speeds, reduced journey times, more passing loops and dare I say it, tilting trains?

A 3h 40 - 4 hour long journey time is not competitive with flying*. With Transport Scotland more inclined to invest in railways, is a 20 minute reduction in journey times realistic, and what could be done and at what cost? I know there are some planners and infrastructure specialists on here that might have some knowledge regarding these 'flagship' Scots routes outside of the main Glasgow Edinburgh route.
*The coach most likely.

 

[hexagon789]

What is the chance we see increased line speeds, reduced journey times, more passing loops and dare I say it, tilting trains?

A 3h 40 - 4 hour long journey time is not competitive with flying. With Transport Scotland more inclined to invest in railways, is a 20 minute reduction in journey times realistic, and what could be done and at what cost? I know there are some planners and infrastructure specialists on here that might have some knowledge regarding these 'flagship' Scots routes outside of the main Glasgow Edinburgh route.

They used to be faster, quite a bit, 20 years ago.

Firstly under FirstGroup, the services were padded out a bit in the mid-2000s.

Then the improved frequency timetable from Winter 2011, slowed some workings down because of the need to pass more services. (This was when all loops required trains to stop on approach then run in if trains were being passed).

The 2013 SP speed improvements shaved a few mins off timings but gradually since then, timings slackened off a bit.

The re-routing of Edinburgh services via Stirling has added some pathing time, as has the changing of stopping patterns under the 'Fit for the Future' timetable.

The Glasgow services aren't too bad, though could be accelerated between Stirling and Perth, now they don't stop at Dunblane and Gleneagles. Most Glasgow-Inverness services are around the 3h25 mark.

If we go back to the 2001 timetable, just after the 170s had been introduced on the route, Edinburgh in particular had some fairly fast services.

From Edinburgh to Inverness, the 0840 and 1740 semi-fasts took 3h19 (accelerated to 3h17 in 2002) and 3h16 respectively. Southbound the 0648 semi-fast was the fastest at just 3h10, while the 1040 and 1245 semi-fasts took 3h23 and 3h14 respectively.

The Glasgow services back then were stopping services calling at all or nearly all stops - even so, northbound the 0708 took 3h17, the 1010 - 3h25 and the 1610 - 3h26 (accelerated to 3h24 in 2002). Southbound, the 0920 took 3h18; the 1650 - 3h25; the 2014 - 3h22.

Even the stopping Edinburgh services were about the same as today's 'limited stop' ones.

(Note that back then only 4 of the 8 ScotRail services each way were 170s, 4 were booked 158s with slower timings.)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A 3h 40 - 4 hour long journey time is not competitive with flying.

Is Inverness -> Glasgow (or Edinburgh), direct, by air, even an option? Or vice-versa?

 

[Trainguy34]

Is Inverness -> Glasgow (or Edinburgh), direct, by air, even an option? Or vice-versa?

Nope, you can get to Edinburgh though by stowing away on a royal mail cargo flight

 

[Peter0124]

Surprised loganair don't send some of their props to do the route

 

[Trainguy34]

3 Hrs 25 Mins by Coach from Buchanan Street (Glasgow) to Aberdeen Bus Stn for £6

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Nope, you can get to Edinburgh though by stowing away on a royal mail cargo flight

Or the back of Postman Pat's van presumably?

So, what are the practical alternatives to travelling by rail from Central Scotland to/from Inverness?

Bus/coach? Self drive?

3 Hrs 25 Mins by Coach from Buchanan Street (Glasgow) to Aberdeen Bus Stn for £6

And to Inverness?

 

[Trainguy34]

And to Inverness?

3 Hr 40 Mins once every 2 Hrs for £23

 

[snowball]

Alongside the A2CB (Aberdeen to Central Belt) electrification there's an A2CB 2026 upgrade - see page 11 of this. We don't yet know what's in it, but its objectives include 20 minutes journey time improvement to Edinburgh and 9 minutes to Glasgow.

 

[The exile]

Then the improved frequency timetable from Winter 2011, slowed some workings down because of the need to pass more services. (This was when all loops required trains to stop on approach then run in if trains were being passed).

In reality, most of the time real “journey time” is not departure time to arrival time but “the total time it takes to get to destination from origin” so increasing frequency at the cost of a small increase in travel time is probably beneficial to all except those for whom the previous, faster train left / arrived at exactly the right time.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

After several service trains have been cancelled north of Perth due to trespass. the return football special from Glasgow to Inverness has been re-scheduled for a second time, now with a 2hr 57 minute end to end timing - 180 miles in 177 minutes. This includes 10 mins of allowances so potentially 167 mins. Stops are shown as 1/2 minute each at Stirling and Aviemore (not sure why) and a 2 min stop at Perth for crew change. Unfortunately departure time from Queen St is not recorded but at 1 min late from Stirling it seems reasonable to assume it left on time or thereabouts, and it is currently (at 22.36) reported 3 min late from Perth having arrived there 2mins early.

Realtime Trains | 1Z93 2130 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness | 03/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Z93 2130 departure from Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness on 03/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It will be interesting to see what it actually achieves.

 

[John Bishop]

After several service trains have been cancelled north of Perth due to trespass. the return football special from Glasgow to Inverness has been re-scheduled for a second time, now with a 2hr 57 minute end to end timing - 180 miles in 177 minutes. This includes 10 mins of allowances so potentially 167 mins. Stops are shown as 1/2 minute each at Stirling and Aviemore (not sure why) and a 2 min stop at Perth for crew change. Unfortunately departure time from Queen St is not recorded but at 1 min late from Stirling it seems reasonable to assume it left on time or thereabouts, and it is currently (at 22.36) reported 3 min late from Perth having arrived there 2mins early.

Realtime Trains | 1Z93 2130 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness | 03/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Z93 2130 departure from Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness on 03/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It will be interesting to see what it actually achieves.

Running as a 4 car 158.

 

[hexagon789]

Running as a 4 car 158.

Indeed, so 90mph and significantly poorer speeds up hill than even 170s let alone the HSTs...

After several service trains have been cancelled north of Perth due to trespass. the return football special from Glasgow to Inverness has been re-scheduled for a second time, now with a 2hr 57 minute end to end timing - 180 miles in 177 minutes. This includes 10 mins of allowances so potentially 167 mins. Stops are shown as 1/2 minute each at Stirling and Aviemore (not sure why) and a 2 min stop at Perth for crew change. Unfortunately departure time from Queen St is not recorded but at 1 min late from Stirling it seems reasonable to assume it left on time or thereabouts, and it is currently (at 22.36) reported 3 min late from Perth having arrived there 2mins early.

Realtime Trains | 1Z93 2130 Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness | 03/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Z93 2130 departure from Glasgow Queen Street to Inverness on 03/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It will be interesting to see what it actually achieves.

3h04

 

[stevieinselby]

Without wanting to be silly about it, the reason trains to Inverness take so long is because it's a flipping long way through challenging terrain! Linespeeds along the route are typically about 75mph but there are plenty of sections where they are higher (and slower sections are usually on the approach to stations where trains will be slowing down anyway).

Re the comment about trains being faster in the past ... it depends when you are looking. Comparing a 1995 timetable with the current service, journey times were pretty much the same as now.
Edinburgh to Inverness – 1995: 3h32, 3h43, 3h35, 3h30, 3h32 – 2023: 3h23, 3h42, 3h47, 3h34, 3h51, 3h38
Glasgow to Inverness – 1995: 3h22, 3h20, 3h32 – 2023: 3h22, 3h18, 3h22, 3h19, 3h34

The fastest journeys are now faster than they were back then. The reason that the 3h51 journey from Edinburgh is so much slower is because it has two waits totalling nearly 15 minutes between Aviemore and Inverness where it gets looped to allow trains to pass – but with one extra journey from Edinburgh and two extra journeys from Glasgow compared to 1995, that seems a small price to pay.

Having just returned home after a trip up to Carrbridge, it didn't feel like a slow route – most of the time, we were speeding past traffic on the parallel A9. It was noticeably slower on the climb up to the summit than down the other side(!) so I don't know whether taking on the 185 Desiros that TransPennine don't need would allow them to speed up the service – although 1️⃣ because most of the line is single track, you might find that running faster on one section just means you have to wait longer at the next passing loop, and 2️⃣ I doubt that 3-car Desiros would give sufficient capacity without running additional services.

Given the relatively small number of people travelling on the route, it doesn't seem like a priority for the kind of heavy engineering that would be needed to make any significant difference to journey times (unless that can be achieved simply by putting on more powerful trains and improving the pathing), when you could get a lot more bang for your buck elsewhere. Of course, if the suggested tunnel under the Forth went ahead then that could see the Edinburgh trains routed via Kirkcaldy again with a decent time saving, but I don't think that is likely to happen any time soon.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not forgetting there was a project completed in 2019 to improve journey times. Details on the Transport Scotland website.

 

[3RDGEN]

TS produced the Strategic Transport Projects document "https://timeline.hie.co.uk/media/1368/transport-strategic-transport-projects-review.pdf" back in Oct 2009 which covers the HML on page 104. The plan was hourly Inverness - Perth (sub 2hr timing) with Edinburgh sub 3hrs and Glasgow similar, some of the improvements happened at Aviemore and Pitlochry but after 14 years they are not much further on.

This report was done in 2020 for HITRANS "https://www.fofnl.org.uk/archives/Highland-Mainline-Unfazed.pdf" to review progress, since then the Edinburgh services have been routed via Stirling leading to slower journey times.

 

[RailWonderer]

Not forgetting there was a project completed in 2019 to improve journey times. Details on the Transport Scotland website.

What's your verdict on this happening in the next decade? The document states an aspiration for more and longer freight loops, no line speeds sub 75mph, raised existing line speeds and more powerful rolling stock (on the 2009 document which the 2019/20 doc quotes from).

 

[cf111]

the 185 Desiros that TransPennine don't need would allow them to speed up the service – although 1️⃣ because most of the line is single track, you might find that running faster on one section just means you have to wait longer at the next passing loop, and 2️⃣ I doubt that 3-car Desiros would give sufficient capacity without running additional services.

As well as what you have noted above, they are also quite heavy and hard on the track. They cannot use the higher "SP" and "HST" speed limits so would not be any quicker.

 

[alf]

As well as what you have noted above, they are also quite heavy and hard on the track. They cannot use the higher "SP" and "HST" speed limits so would not be any quicker.

Unless Network Rail or its successor were paid annual compensation to allow the heavy 185s to run at the higher SP & HST speeds.

 

[Bald Rick]

What's your verdict on this happening in the next decade? The document states an aspiration for more and longer freight loops, no line speeds sub 75mph, raised existing line speeds and more powerful rolling stock (on the 2009 document which the 2019/20 doc quotes from).

Well the project completed in 2019 is, err, completed.

As for further works - my guess is that it will be as likely as the equally long promised A9 dualling going ahead in full.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Note that between Perth and Inverness there are lots of Sprinter differentials but no HST differentials (meaning the Scotrail HSTs cannot take advantage of the earlier works).

There are HST differentials between Edinburgh and Aberdeen but south from Perth only a couple between Stirling and Larbert.

 

[hexagon789]

Note that between Perth and Inverness there are lots of Sprinter differentials but no HST differentials (meaning the Scotrail HSTs cannot take advantage of the earlier works).

There are HST differentials between Edinburgh and Aberdeen but south from Perth only a couple between Stirling and Larbert.

There were more historically, the HML had HST differentials applied for the Chieftain partly from 1984 and fully from 1985.

The Edinburgh & Glasgow line also had them in parts.

I believe they were removed from these routes by 1992, as on the HML in particular they were often of short length and limited benefit; the 90mph top speed of the 158s further limiting usefulness.

The 100 section between Kingussie and Kincraig loop was thus dropped to 90 (the non-HST differential limit) until passed again for 100mph (this time for all trains) in ~2002.

The ones on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen route remained because, particularly south of Dundee, limits were quite restrictive otherwise and as 158s could use the differentials anyway it made more sense to retain them. (They save 8 mins Edinburgh-Dundee and 7 mins Dundee-Aberdeen for an HST making one intermediate stop.)

Interestingly, the HST limit between Larbert and Stirling seems a more recent edition. The 2006 SA shows it as a plain 100 rather than the 95/HST 100 it currently is.

 

[Wynd]

As an exercise in hypothetical's, if you had a double track electrified railway, what is the minimum feasible journey time?

Sub 3 hours?

 

[hexagon789]

As an exercise in hypothetical's, if you had a double track electrified railway, what is the minimum feasible journey time?

Sub 3 hours?

Non-stop?

With or without raising linespeeds?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

As an exercise in hypothetical's, if you had a double track electrified railway, what is the minimum feasible journey time?

Sub 3 hours?

Potentially yes, it might depend on the stops, minimum Stirling, Perth, Pitlochry, Aviemore, maybe Kingussie and/or Dunkeld as being the next busiest, and assuming the EMU could take all the Sprinter differentials.
Faster time to/from Glasgow as Edinburgh via Stirling is further, and via Fife slower. And all subject to no pathing constraints at any point in the journey.

EDIT: It would be a great help if something could be done about Perth, 15mph for 1/4 mile both south and north of the station, if that could go to say 40, that would make a difference, guestimate perhaps 2 mins per train when braking and acceleration is taken into account, plenty of space for any realignments that might be required. A very poor early 1960s layout. 35mph on the up at Stanley Jn is painful too, the alignment of the former crossover (down is SP55, and quickly onto 75)

 

[hexagon789]

Ignoring better acceleration with electric power, here's a composite of the best scheduled times I'm aware of

Glasgow to Stirling - 25 mins (Cl. 170, 2002)
Stirling to Perth - 30 mins (Cl. 170, 2002)

Perth to Inverness (4 stops) - 2h03 (170, 2002)

Add in a 2 min dwell at Perth for a crew change etc = 3hrs dead

Should be possible to cut that a bit, especially as an electric will be able to cruise more at 100mph on the E&G, accelerate away better from stops and PSRs and climb the various sustained gradients potentially at the full permitted speed.

Whether you'd save a full 15 mins though without changing any permitted speeds...

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Stirling to Perth - 30 mins (Cl. 170, 2002)

My limited experience of Scotrail HSTs is with a clear run Stirling Perth or reverse is typically around 28 mins - although the actual schedule may also include some allowances.

 

[hexagon789]

My limited experience of Scotrail HSTs is with a clear run Stirling Perth or reverse is typically around 28 mins - although the actual schedule may also include some allowances.

The standard in 2002, was 3 mins allowances approaching Perth.

The one Glasgow to Perth non-stop working in 2002 was given 54 mins in the public timetable.

I should note that the 30 min Stirling to Perth timing was the standard for off-peak Glasgow to Aberdeens but the 25 min Glasgow to Stirling timetable was only booked for the 1612 Inverness which had no allowances to Stirling. The Aberdeens were usually 27 mins to Stirling with 2 mins allowances.

Ergo, the usual off-peak Perth timing was 57 mins by the Aberdeen services, including calling at Stirling for 1 min.

 

[RailWonderer]

Well the project completed in 2019 is, err, completed.

As for further works - my guess is that it will be as likely as the equally long promised A9 dualling going ahead in full.

My bad for skimming the document on my lunch break!

 

[Wynd]

Potentially yes, it might depend on the stops, minimum Stirling, Perth, Pitlochry, Aviemore, maybe Kingussie and/or Dunkeld as being the next busiest, and assuming the EMU could take all the Sprinter differentials.
Faster time to/from Glasgow as Edinburgh via Stirling is further, and via Fife slower. And all subject to no pathing constraints at any point in the journey.

EDIT: It would be a great help if something could be done about Perth, 15mph for 1/4 mile both south and north of the station, if that could go to say 40, that would make a difference, guestimate perhaps 2 mins per train when braking and acceleration is taken into account, plenty of space for any realignments that might be required. A very poor early 1960s layout. 35mph on the up at Stanley Jn is painful too, the alignment of the former crossover (down is SP55, and quickly onto 75)

A 1960's layout must be due for some intervention soon. Did I hear it was a hydraulic system running the points?

Sub 3 hours is an admirable aim, however, the cost of delivery.... what are we thinking it could cost?