Why do people not move down carriages to make more space?

[Phil R]

People's ideas about what constitutes personal space are different. You tend to also have a much greater tolerance of people invading 'your' personal space if you have spent significant time living in a crowded city. There is considerable research supporting it.

I would not do this, but many people could genuinely not comprehend why you would think it is wrong.

Funnily enough not the issue yesterday given they were 'crowding' empty bays of 4.
This morning Mrs R accompanied me on my trip to t'smoke and as we took up the 4 she did smile knowingly as a parrot slid in behind me despite the empty toastrack further back (yes, even on a Thursday).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2023 ==

Possibly related, but people do seem to like to clump up when choosing seats.

I'll act like the dots on a die and try and be as far apart as possible from others, but there is always someone, usually obnoxious, who just has to sit behind you. I totally agree it's unnerving. Does the seat behind the table have particularly good window alignment?

It drives me mad. I sometimes wish I had a decoy I could put on the other end so people clumped over there leaving me in peace.

True, decoys could be very useful! I too play dice in peacetime, unless expecting a massive imminent invasion in which case I'll hide in a corner... once backfired as I inadvertently came across as not only a clumper but a potential laptop snooper ( I blame matey's overadherencre to his company IT policy, I don't give a, I have my own stuff to plough through. Nevertheless, the embarrassment, I was mortified.)

 

[Skiddaw]

Sitting in a seat behind you isn't "invading your space". Trains are public transport.

I get your point but I still don't like it. It creeps me out a bit especially in an empty/practically empty carriage and especially if its a bloke on his own. Just a personal thing I suppose.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I get your point but I still don't like it. It creeps me out a bit especially in an empty carriage and especially if its a bloke on his own. Just a personal thing I suppose.

Surely in this thread, which is after all about 'why don't people move down carriages?', the basic premise is that it is more efficient if passengers 'pack in' close to each other from the middle (i.e. furthest away from the doors) outwards. That way nobody joining later will need to waste time walking past people, asking them to move up and so on. So many trains these days 'get full' at least at some stage of their journey that there is sort of a basic logic in getting the close proximity done with after which many people quickly zone out with their phone screen, headphones, kindle or whatever anyway.

Just trying to keep the debate going...

 

[Skiddaw]

Surely in this thread, which is after all about 'why don't people move down carriages?', the basic premise is that it is more efficient if passengers 'pack in' close to each other from the middle (i.e. furthest away from the doors) outwards. That way nobody joining later will need to waste time walking past people, asking them to move up and so on. So many trains these days 'get full' at least at some stage of their journey that there is sort of a basic logic in getting the close proximity done with after which many people quickly zone out with their phone screen, headphones, kindle or whatever anyway.

Just trying to keep the debate going...

That's a very logical approach certainly. Not sure you'd ever pursuade people to follow it in practise. Nice idea however.

 

[BeijingDave]

I don't really think there is a debate to be had. There is nothing objectionable about someone sitting near you, unless they are drunk or displaying other anti-social behaviour. They have paid for a seat and can take any free one.

I personally don't choose to sit near other people if there is lots of space available, but I don't give dirty looks to someone who does (like I have seen some mean-spirited people do).

 

[Meerkat]

I don’t tend to move down because the handholds are rubbish on the seats (partic when you are 6’3”), and getting anxious about being trapped - partly just anxiety but mainly worry about getting to the door quickly enough to get out before they shut again.
I will move down if I have to stand in the aisle but will otherwise try to stay in the vestibule. And you only need the furthest person not to move down and no one can.
Vestibules are also better as you can lean on something and you are at the same level as others - having your backside in peoples faces is just so awkward.
Re Waterloo and ‘just turn up a bit earlier’. Firstly regulars don’t do that, but even as an irregular the trains are frequent enough that there will be often be one close to departure that i can catch by rushing and jumping on as far down as I can get before the guard starts looking grumpy, which might mean the first couple of carriages. And once you are on you can only really move down if the furthest down people want to, it’s not practical to barge down.

 

[AM9]

I don't really think there is a debate to be had. There is nothing objectionable about someone sitting near you, unless they are drunk or displaying other anti-social behaviour. They have paid for a seat and can take any free one.

Actually, they have paid to travel, seats can be used if they are available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2023 ==

I don’t tend to move down because the handholds are rubbish on the seats (partic when you are 6’3”), and getting anxious about being trapped - partly just anxiety but mainly worry about getting to the door quickly enough to get out before they shut again.

Handrails and seat grab handles differ between trains. Some the newest trains have excellent handles that are designed to be used by two people at once when necessary.

 

[infobleep]

I don’t tend to move down because the handholds are rubbish on the seats (partic when you are 6’3”), and getting anxious about being trapped - partly just anxiety but mainly worry about getting to the door quickly enough to get out before they shut again.
I will move down if I have to stand in the aisle but will otherwise try to stay in the vestibule. And you only need the furthest person not to move down and no one can.
Vestibules are also better as you can lean on something and you are at the same level as others - having your backside in peoples faces is just so awkward.
Re Waterloo and ‘just turn up a bit earlier’. Firstly regulars don’t do that, but even as an irregular the trains are frequent enough that there will be often be one close to departure that I can catch by rushing and jumping on as far down as I can get before the guard starts looking grumpy, which might mean the first couple of carriages. And once you are on you can only really move down if the furthest down people want to, it’s not practical to barge down.

I guard once said they couldn't down through the trains because it was busy but if we wanted to speak to him they were in coach x. Might have been 5.

I didn't need to speak to the guard but wanted to see if I could do what the guard suggested and reach them, given they couldn't do it themselves. I did manage it but it was very busy.

As for getting to Waterloo earlier, that is what running is for. Less important if trains are regular and you are doing a one-off journey but if it's a commute then running is my solution.

 

[Amos]

Personally I dislike being stood up half way down the aisles on a train, especially on something like a 158 when everyone is crammed in near the doors - having to squeeze past everyone to get off when you're 5-10 rows deep into the carriage. At least if you are sat down when the carriage is full everyone will clearly see that someone has stood up from their seat and ready to try and get to the doors so start adjusting to let them off - but if you're already stood up in the aisle it's not so obvious someone is trying to make their way through - especially if you're short like me!

Had this issue whilst travelling to Copenhagen airport. I Moved down as the train filled up but found it quite difficult to exit with a suitcase when we reached the airport.Almost ended up in Sweden.

 

[greyman42]

I don't really think there is a debate to be had. There is nothing objectionable about someone sitting near you, unless they are drunk or displaying other anti-social behaviour. They have paid for a seat and can take any free one.

Being drunk does not have to mean that someone will be anti-social. They may well just fall asleep.

 

[Meerkat]

Actually, they have paid to travel, seats can be used if they are available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2023 ==


Handrails and seat grab handles differ between trains. Some the newest trains have excellent handles that are designed to be used by two people at once when necessary.

They are still at waist height, meaning they require more effort than just hanging off a pole or leaning on a wall.

 

[TUC]

Reading some of these comments I am confused why they use public transport since they seem to have difficulty with the principle of being with other people. If you don't like sitting near people, buy a car.

 

[tankmc]

Most cases I see are

Anxiety? They may be getting off at the next station and don’t want to be stuck.

Selfishness? They just don’t want to

Unaware? They have head phones in and are not paying attention

 

[bramling]

Reading some of these comments I am confused why they use public transport since they seem to have difficulty with the principle of being with other people. If you don't like sitting near people, buy a car.

Which is of course what most people do.

I can’t help but find rail travel nowadays rather unpleasant compared to the 90s, when especially at off-peak times you were often guaranteed a pretty empty train.

Compartments offer a partial solution to all this of course, but they bring their own issues.

 

[AM9]

They are still at waist height, meaning they require more effort than just hanging off a pole or leaning on a wall.

Waist height. Oh really! Here's a picture of the interior of a Desiro City where you can see that the grab handles are at the top corner of each seat back. I've chosen a picture with some real humans standing next to the seats. That nearest person seems to be of average height, and I estimate that the handle extends from over 1.0m at the lower end to about 1.3m at the top. Of course anybody who is over 2m high with legs as long as a long jumper or basketball player might have a waist that high, but the seats are designed for normals.

 

[Stewart2887]

Last train journey I went on with my daughter, CrossCountry from Oxford. Absolute crush loading, if I'd gone down the coach I'd never have got off at Wolves. Train left lots behind at stations. It least standing in the vestibules, no chance of falling over. Total disgrace, car every time now

 

[Meerkat]

Waist height. Oh really! Here's a picture of the interior of a Desiro City where you can see that the grab handles are at the top corner of each seat back. I've chosen a picture with some real humans standing next to the seats. That nearest person seems to be of average height, and I estimate that the handle extends from over 1.0m at the lower end to about 1.3m at the top. Of course anybody who is over 2m high with legs as long as a long jumper or basketball player might have a waist that high, but the seats are designed for normals.

Fair enough, but still not high enough to hang off - which means more force needed to use them to stay upright (and keep your backside off the occupants shoulder!)
And definitely more effort than leaning against something

 

[Deepgreen]

Thread title is still nonsensical!

 

[Horizon22]

I experienced this again today. Train Manager made multiple attempts to get people to move down on an 9-car GWR service, but the majority of people stubbornly refused to move and packed up the front, whilst the rear 2 coaches (one of which I was in) was practically empty. If people won't act in their best interests, more room for people like me I guess!

 

[AM9]

Fair enough, but still not high enough to hang off - which means more force needed to use them to stay upright (and keep your backside off the occupants shoulder!)
And definitely more effort than leaning against something

Having travelled on them plenty of times, sometimes standing, I can confirm that despite being slightly over 6ft and in my mid-'70s, those grab handles are quite adequate for the ride through the poor track around Mill Hill Broadway on the MML. If I wanted something higher, you can see from the picture that I attached that the parcel shelf is within easy reach for most and it has a handy handrail on its edge. All more convenient and far safer that packing like sardines in a vestibule

 

[Horizon22]

Last train journey I went on with my daughter, CrossCountry from Oxford. Absolute crush loading, if I'd gone down the coach I'd never have got off at Wolves. Train left lots behind at stations. It least standing in the vestibules, no chance of falling over. Total disgrace, car every time now

That's a different scenario compared to what is generally being discussed which is uneven distribution (crush-loading in one coach, plenty of seats several coaches down).

 

[bramling]

I experienced this again today. Train Manager made multiple attempts to get people to move down on an 9-car GWR service, but the majority of people stubbornly refused to move and packed up the front, whilst the rear 2 coaches (one of which I was in) was practically empty. If people won't act in their best interests, more room for people like me I guess!

Exactly I don’t get why some people have such a thing about this. As you say, an example where intelligence and aptitude pays dividends, just as life should be.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Earlier on the Hope Valley the guard announced that they'll be staying near the back (3 car 195) due to crowding, although the front carriage had noone standing in (although almost all seats were taken).
Probably didn't help the TPE that should've ran before was cancelled.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

I don't know what part of the train the circles with 8 in painted on Avanti managed station platforms are supposed to mean. But I do know if I stand on one I'm always back carriage (or front depending on direction of travel) of a London North Western train. Usually empty and perfect for the steps at Long Buckby.

 

[dingdinger]

I don't know what part of the train the circles with 8 in painted on Avanti managed station platforms are supposed to mean. But I do know if I stand on one I'm always back carriage (or front depending on direction of travel) of a London North Western train. Usually empty and perfect for the steps at Long Buckby.

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/onboard/about-our-trains
Use the above link and download the "platform zone numbers" file. Very handy as you can use the platform number zone number to stand in the correct place for your carriage of choice/reserved seat for Avanti services. I use it all the time very handy as long as the train is the correct way around. Saves walking through the train and first choice on any unreserved seats.

 

[Phil R]

I experienced this again today. Train Manager made multiple attempts to get people to move down on an 9-car GWR service, but the majority of people stubbornly refused to move and packed up the front, whilst the rear 2 coaches (one of which I was in) was practically empty. If people won't act in their best interests, more room for people like me I guess!

I had a variation on this yesterday, as a result of of an unfortunate confluence of 5 vice 9 and extra passenger numbers because of football. TM made announcements to encourage standees to bail for the train 5 minutes behind and going to same destination that was known to have 200 empty seats, but the uptake was minimal. Seems some people prefer to stand in a vestibule for nearly two hours.

 

[Horizon22]

I had a variation on this yesterday, as a result of of an unfortunate confluence of 5 vice 9 and extra passenger numbers because of football. TM made announcements to encourage standees to bail for the train 5 minutes behind and going to same destination that was known to have 200 empty seats, but the uptake was minimal. Seems some people prefer to stand in a vestibule for nearly two hours.

I can appreciate that a bit more and the fact there was a short-form is slightly different. I suppose trust of railway staff and people having being stung before on previous advice might sadly come into it.

 

[NSEWonderer]

This issue can be made worse by station exit and entrance point locations. On the Lizzy line the train will mainly fill cars 8 and 9 at ABW due to the entrance/exit being at the far rear end of where the trains stable on platform 3 and 4.

Tho passengers coming off SE and thaneslink trains will predominantly fill the front 2 coaches due to the footbridge being far forward of the platforms(headend).

When the train pulls into Woolwich from Abbey Wood the announcements are made for passengers to use the whole length of the platform, mainly the middle area( this usually ends up being the area with more space, cars 7, 6, 5, 4).

Most passengers at Woolwich will ignore the announcements and then clutter onto the first carriages which practically jam pack them, the remainder squeezing into the middle cars.

By Custom house the seats are pretty much all but gone, custom house passengers predominantly crowd the middle cars and some will also head for the front but quickly find this filled if none alight at custom.

By this point the train is quite packed going into Canary Wharf which is quite front and middle car orientated passenger flow wise.

Announcements sometimes on the train will request movement to be distributed along the train but most people will hardly take notice, especially if they're using headphones.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Why do students always sit in the vestibules with their belongings and get in everybody's way when there are plenty seats free?

 

[bramling]

Why do students always sit in the vestibules with their belongings and get in everybody's way when there are plenty seats free?

Students as a group do seem to put themselves forwards in the hypothetical competition for who can be more dumb than average. I’ve never really understood why this is, as really one would expect the opposite to be true.

Incidentally this isn’t meant as a dig, just a reflection of observation. Perhaps it’s because many students may well be above average in terms of intellect but at that stage still lacking in aptitude gained through exposure to life experience.