Why do Northern terminate at Scunthorpe?

[Gathursty]

Northern run a Doncaster - Scunthorpe 2 hourly all stopper service but I've always wondered why they don't continue to Grimsby/Cleethorpes?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Northern run a Doncaster - Scunthorpe 2 hourly all stopper service but I've always wondered why they don't continue to Grimsby/Cleethorpes?

Is the hourly, broadly clockface, service provided by TPE perhaps deemed to be sufficient?

 

[lyndhurst25]

TPE monopolising the South Yorkshire to Cleethorpes service and treating it as a cash cow? Day return fares abolished. Places like Rotherham and Mexborough no longer get a through service. Cleethorpes used to be THE day out by the seaside destination from those towns. The option of doing it affordably by going via Brigg on a Saturday isn’t there any more since the service was changes to 1x train per day that way. I’d say that a Northern Sheffield to Cleethorpes stopper, with fares to match the Brigg line service, would be a success. But aren’t Northern and TPE both government owned franchises now?

 

[Kite159]

TPE monopolising the South Yorkshire to Cleethorpes service and treating it as a cash cow? Day return fares abolished. Places like Rotherham and Mexborough no longer get a through service. Cleethorpes used to be THE day out by the seaside destination from those towns. The option of doing it affordably by going via Brigg on a Saturday isn’t there any more since the service was changes to 1x train per day that way. I’d say that a Northern Sheffield to Cleethorpes stopper, with fares to match the Brigg line service, would be a success. But aren’t Northern and TPE both government owned franchises now?

The chance of a Sheffield - Cleethorpes stopper via Doncaster is extremely unlikely as it will need to cross the ECML, hence why platform 0 was built at Doncaster and service split at Doncaster.

 

[Msq71423]

Interestingly on last week's TPE video message to staff from the MD, he mentions TPE are going to conduct a feasibility study into running a regular service via the Brigg line, using Manchester crew going via Doncaster, Brigg, Cleethorpes. I wonder if this would move services away from the Scunthorpe route leaving the Northern stopper as the main service on this line.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Interestingly on last week's TPE video message to staff from the MD, he mentions TPE are going to conduct a feasibility study into running a regular service via the Brigg line, using Manchester crew going via Doncaster, Brigg, Cleethorpes. I wonder if this would move services away from the Scunthorpe route leaving the Northern stopper as the main service on this line.

Nice idea but Scunthorpe has a population of 80,000 but Brigg's is only 5,000. Hard to see them justify removing services from the former in favour of the latter.

 

[Kite159]

Nice idea but Scunthorpe has a population of 80,000 but Brigg's is only 5,000. Hard to see them justify removing services from the former in favour of the latter.

Unless it's a crazy idea from the DfT to divert one TPE train a day via Brigg to replace the token Northern service at the cost of a 2 hour gap on the Scunthorpe route?

 

[Starmill]

If it were up to me I'd say run 2tph between Doncaster and Cleethorpes using single 185s on all services. There'd be adequate stock for that (just).

Realistically though this is never going to happen. It'd be millions to extend the footbridge over from platform 0 so that it had a lift and staircase straight to platforms 6-8. If you didn't do that it could take 10-15 minutes to get from platform 0 to platform 8 because it'd be three lifts and a very long traipse between them all. Not exactly reasonable. Also there would need to be a big expansion of the Cleethorpes crew depot to cover that much work. And finally the stakeholder screaming about no more direct trains between Grimsby and Manchester (and so on) would be unbearable.

 

[JonathanH]

TPE monopolising the South Yorkshire to Cleethorpes service and treating it as a cash cow?

The service pattern of the stopper ending at Scunthorpe, and the faster service running through to Cleethorpes has essentially been the same for 30 years, if not more.

The split into Northern and TPE is essentially 20 years old.

I’d say that a Northern Sheffield to Cleethorpes stopper, with fares to match the Brigg line service, would be a success. But aren’t Northern and TPE both government owned franchises now?

It would be the government who would need to pay the subsidy to support those cheaper fares if a stopper were to be extended to Cleethorpes with 'Northern' fares.

 

[Galaxy]

I was involved in a meeting around two years ago which mooted the opportunity for six-car running between Doncaster and Liverpool all day but at the expense of Doncaster - Cleethorpes becoming a separate service but with a trade off with a half-hourly frequency between Doncaster and Scunthorpe at times which afforded a more clockface 30 minute interval service (memory seems to be that it was xx50 and xx15 ex-Doncaster and xx00 and xx30 ex-Scunthorpe but don't quote me on this). Plans were for one train per two hours for Thorne South, Crowle and Althorpe as now with an express in between, but no suggestion to extend beyond Scunthorpe.

Then it turned to TPE providing stops at Thorne South, Crowle and Althorpe every two hours which was quickly dropped by TPE as a viable solution and as such we end up with the status quo we have today.

Part of the problem is that the two-hourly stopper follows the express and in the opposite direction although xx48 from Scunthorpe arrives just 10 minutes before the express anyway which partly explains the severely poor passenger numbers. Only when TPE is late do you see a reasonable load on the stopper.

There's room for improvement here and back in the old days there was a decent xx08 to Scunthorpe with the xx42 (as was) to Cleethorpes and xx10 and xx19 to go to Doncaster [not ideal], but that was back when the service ran from Sheffield which was removed to make use of platform 0 at Doncaster and alleviate crossing Marshgate Junction.

The current situation really doesn't work and needs SYMCA, NLC and NELC to propose something better, but better comes at a significant investment and we can guess the rest.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Interestingly on last week's TPE video message to staff from the MD, he mentions TPE are going to conduct a feasibility study into running a regular service via the Brigg line, using Manchester crew going via Doncaster, Brigg, Cleethorpes. I wonder if this would move services away from the Scunthorpe route leaving the Northern stopper as the main service on this line.

Not regular.

Cleethorpes crew not Manchester. Diversionary only, Barnetby - Doncaster via Brigg & Finningley

Manchester crew should be learning Piccadilly to Sheffield via Romiley

 

[trawler]

It's essentially to provide a turnaround at Scunthorpe to ensure a regular service to Doncaster for the intermediate stations. To run through to Cleethorpes would require significant additional crews, pathing etc. Cleethorpes does not have a Northern crew base either. Ultimately, the demand is not there and in journey times significantly longer than the TPE fast would be.

 

[IBLRG]

Interestingly on last week's TPE video message to staff from the MD, he mentions TPE are going to conduct a feasibility study into running a regular service via the Brigg line, using Manchester crew going via Doncaster, Brigg, Cleethorpes. I wonder if this would move services away from the Scunthorpe route leaving the Northern stopper as the main service on this line.

The medium to long-term view is that TransPennine will run the Brigg line using one unit on a Cleethorpes to Worksop shuttle service.

This will give five round trips.

Due to ongoing issues with the canal bridge failing considerably at Keadby nr Scunthorpe, diverting some services via Brigg is actually a very good plan when things go wrong.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Given TPE are only planning to sign Doncaster - Gainsboro - Barnetby, I think that any notion of a Worksop - Cleethorpes shuttle is a little ambitious.

I suspect it will be something like the 05xx Cleethorpes departure or the 00xx Cleethorpes arrival will divert that way and miss out Scunthorpe