Why do Network Rail still use some imperial measurements?

[karlbbb]

Utter stupidity is pricing petrol in litres, when everyone judges fuel consumption in MPG. Petrol should obviously be sold in gallons. The reasons it's sold in litres is that the government of the time thought the price in gallons was frightening the public and they would be less concerned if it was in litres as the price would not appear to be as bad (it was just perception).

Luckily this one will die out naturally as we (the general public at least) stop using fuel and switch to buying kWh of electricity, though don't get me started on car reviews using horsepower/PS equivalents for electric cars instead of using the rightful kW measurement.


Just to keep things on topic with the OP, I think this thread demonstrates precisely why we're still using a mix of units - a combination of apathy towards finishing the change, and people on either end of the spectrum of wanting to forcefully change to metric, or forcefully move back to imperial fully

 

[swt_passenger]

People tend to use what suits. A foot is a very well known unit of length that people can easily grasp the length of, 33cm is less so in my opinion. Metre and yard are pretty close in length. It's common for joiners to go into a woodyard and ask for 5 metres lengths of 3" by 2".

Hang on, are you suggesting a foot is about 33cm? Any typical 12” rule will show it’s about 30 cm, (305 mm).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The UK also had its local oddities - Cheshire acres anybody (larger than normal)?

Never heard of them, and doubtful if they've been used anytime in the last 125+ years.

= 10,240 sq. yards apparently. (Standard acre is 4,840 sq. yards, or one furlong distance times one chain width, if you prefer).

 

[RH Liner]

On a football field the goals are 8yd x 8ft, the goal area is the 6yd box and the pen area the 18yd box.
As a church organist I can also tell you that pipe lengths even on the continent are measured in feet, which works perfectly and couldn’t work as well in metric. So we talk about unison tone being 8ft pitch, and octave above 4ft etc, referring to the length of the pipe for the bottom note on the keyboard.
Metric must be easier in most things but there are exceptions where imperial does the job better.

 

[karlbbb]

On a football field the goals are 8yd x 8ft, the goal area is the 6yd box and the pen area the 18yd box.
As a church organist I can also tell you that pipe lengths even on the continent are measured in feet, which works perfectly and couldn’t work as well in metric. So we talk about unison tone being 8ft pitch, and octave above 4ft etc, referring to the length of the pipe for the bottom note on the keyboard.
Metric must be easier in most things but there are exceptions where imperial does the job better.

But your organ example is just due to the fact that our use of equal temperament means an octave is made by doubling or halving a frequency, which means it'd work equally as nicely in metric. If you want an octave of an 8m pipe, it'd be 4m. That's it.

I personally think a lot of resistance comes from a natural need for comfort. People are uncomfortable switching because they can't "eyeball" using those units yet, and instead run back to the comfort of units they know. I've heard a lot of resistance coming from "I don't know what that is in miles", but that really doesn't matter. Once the new units are used alone, the adjustment will come naturally.

A lot of examples have come up about landmark barriers (thousand foot liners, reaching the holy grail of 100mph etc), and say they can't be done in imperial. Well, if people were using solely metric, those new landmarks/barriers would just come naturally - "wow, that new cargo ship has broken a 300m length record" etc. People also like the "nicety" of things like 60mph being 1 mile per minute speed because that rounds well, yet discount the fact that all metric units are based on multiple of thousands, so round very nicely naturally.

 

[bspahh]

Litres to the 100km makes more sense as we know the cost of fuel in litres but not in gallons.

miles per litre makes more sense when you know the cost of fuel in litres, the distance in miles, and have a car that does about 45mpg, or 10.0 mpL

 

[Mat17]

You want to return to pre-decimal currency too?

That'd be great, one way to improve mental arithmetic. A very logical system actually, excellent for divisibility.

 

[AM9]

Luckily this one will die out naturally as we (the general public at least) stop using fuel and switch to buying kWh of electricity, though don't get me started on car reviews using horsepower/PS equivalents for electric cars instead of using the rightful kW measurement.

That also happens here. There are still plenty of posters who are hung up with specifying the power output of EMU and DEMU motors in HP (well they say 'HP' but they mean units of 746W). Do we say that cars have headlights bulbs rated at 0.074 HP?
And then there's those looking for 1 97/256 inch film for their cameras.
All candidates for the Flat Earth Society's 'Forward thinking' award.

 

[ac6000cw]

I think I'm fortunate that I was taught both imperial and metric units at various times through my school career (and also went through the decimalisation of the UK currency), so I can think 'natively' in both imperial and metric units.

This has been very useful during my working life in electronic engineering, where it's very common to have a collection of components on a circuit board with some dimensioned in imperial and some in metric units...

...and having been interested in American railways for over 30 years, I've learnt to be careful about using 'ton' as there are three versions of it in common use around the world - long/Imperial (2240 lbs), short/US (2000 lbs) and the metric 'tonne' (1000 kg/2204 lbs).

Personally, I normally use metric units unless there is a good reason not to, and think it's high time we converted our remaining consumer weights and measures to 'hard' metric near equivalents. So scrap using a 'pint' for draught beer and sell it in sensible metric measures e.g. 250 & 500 ml - we already use metric measures for wines and spirits, and often for bottled beer, so what's so special about draft beer measures, other than silly nostalgia?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

On a football field the goals are 8yd x 8ft, the goal area is the 6yd box and the pen area the 18yd box.

Or (respectively) 7.32m x 2.44m, 5.5m and 16.5m, as are all now mandated in The International Football Association Board's "Laws of the Game" book.

 

[vic-rijrode]

That'd be great, one way to improve mental arithmetic. A very logical system actually, excellent for divisibility.

Except that most people would still be too lazy to use mental arithmetic and would need a pocket calculator - imagine the keyboard for an "imperial" calculator!

 

[InOban]

I seem to remember that is quite common in French or German markets for produce to be sold by the livre of pfund, both 500gm.
And our standard lb and yard are defined in relation to their metric equivalents.
An ounce should be redefined as 25g, a lb as 500g and a pint as 500ml. Only the mile is awkward. (Incidentally the M9/M80 junction near Stirling was built in the heyday of metrication and the approach signs from the North are at 2/3 and 1/3 mile, ie 1km and 500m)

 

[Mordac]

In the USA, I get confused when presented with a road sign showing a junction at "1000 feet" or similar.
Despite mainly using what we call Imperial measure, the Americans seem to prefer using feet to yards.
And of course their capacity is different to ours, with 8 fl oz being a US pint instead of our 10 fl oz.
The quart is another odd unit the Americans prefer, being practically unused here.

Their fluid ounce is different as well, to add to complexity! The imperial one is approximately 28.41 ml, compared to 29.57 ml for the us one.

 

[karlbbb]

I seem to remember that is quite common in French or German markets for produce to be sold by the livre of pfund, both 500gm.
And our standard lb and yard are defined in relation to their metric equivalents.
An ounce should be redefined as 25g, a lb as 500g and a pint as 500ml. Only the mile is awkward. (Incidentally the M9/M80 junction near Stirling was built in the heyday of metrication and the approach signs from the North are at 2/3 and 1/3 mile, ie 1km and 500m)

Interesting point is that on our roads, the "mile posts" are actually at 500m intervals, so measure the road distance in km, and the 3/2/1 countdown to junctions are placed at 300/200/100m respectively, though it is taught they're at 300/200/100 yards.

Personally, I normally use metric units unless there is a good reason not to, and think it's high time we converted our remaining consumer weights and measures to 'hard' metric near equivalents. So scrap using a 'pint' for draught beer and sell it in sensible metric measures e.g. 250 & 500 ml - we already use metric measures for wines and spirits, and often for bottled beer, so what's so special about draft beer measures, other than silly nostalgia?

My bold, but bottled beer has to be sold in metric units. We are officially a metric country - the only legal exceptions are the use of miles/yards on the roads to measure distance, and the sale of milk, plus beer/cider on-tap, in pints. Other than this, everything has to be sold in metric. Imperial units can be used alongside metric units, but metric units must always be the most prominent - something that isn't enforced anyway if you go to cinemas and other well-known coffee outlets who sell (illegally) in fl oz. It's no wonder we're in a mess!

 

[John Luxton]

Strange really when I started school in the 60s I was taught imperial whilst during the 70s metric crept in. I must admit if I am measuring something for say DIY I constantly chop and change between both systems! Hence I have no problem in interpreting Imperial or Metric when I see it written down.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I must admit if I am measuring something for say DIY I constantly chop and change between both systems!

Like asking for a couple of metres of 4" by 2" (timber)!

 

[BayPaul]

People tend to use what suits. A foot is a very well known unit of length that people can easily grasp the length of, 33cm is less so in my opinion. Metre and yard are pretty close in length. It's common for joiners to go into a woodyard and ask for 5 metres lengths of 3" by 2".

Utter stupidity is pricing petrol in litres, when everyone judges fuel consumption in MPG. Petrol should obviously be sold in gallons. The reasons it's sold in litres is that the government of the time thought the price in gallons was frightening the public and they would be less concerned if it was in litres as the price would not appear to be as bad (it was just perception).

Petrol being sold in litres is good. All that is needed is a new MPL or KMPL measurement of fuel consumption. Litres per 100km is just clunky!

 

[RPI]

I think its safe to conclude that as a Nation, we use both Metric and Imperial on a daily basis, most, like me, have a firm grasp of both and use whichever suits the specific task we're doing!

Its also safe to conclude that, for the foreseeable future we will use both hand in hand, there's no right or no wrong!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2021 ==

Like asking for a couple of metres of 4" by 2" (timber)!

Haha you hit the nail on the head there, I had a baseboard built for my kids (my) model railway, no word of a lie i asked for it to be 6ft x 4ft on 10mm ply, with legs 1m high and the framework made from 4"×1" inch

 

[Taunton]

As I understand it, some of the most detailed railway survey drawings available to the civils are still the original ones used for the construction of the line. Obviously all still in Imperial. As indeed are all drawings they have done from before about 1970.

One of the advantages of using Chains for measurement (66 feet, 80 to the mile), and trying to envisage them as distance along the line, is that it's the same length as a traditional standard railway coach. So 10 chains is 10 carriage lengths.

 

[Bigman]

Next we will be suggesting that horse racing does away with furlongs and the 10,000 Guineas. Mile and chains forever!!

 

[ComUtoR]

I find it fascinating the US extensively uses BTUs in cooling.

“British Thermal Units“ havent been used in Britain for decades.

If I want a new radiator and head off to Screwfix. They all have the BTU listed.

 

[matacaster]

As I grew up and educated in a modern ex-Commonwealth country, I have no idea what a mile is and need to use a calculator to work it out, as I can only process in kilometres.


I also have the same question why the initial designer of metric system didn't just adopt nautical miles as the standard length unit, as it is also based on the circumstance of the Earth as in the initial definition of metres. A rumour is that they wanted to replace degrees by grads as well.

If you can only process distances in km, how do you manage on motorways when sign says X miles to your exit or destination?

 

[karlbbb]

If you can only process distances in km, how do you manage on motorways when sign says X miles to your exit or destination?

Not the poster you quoted, but I have my car's speedo set to km, sat navs in km, measure fuel consumption (not economy) in L/100km etc. Just need to know the conversions in your head.

 

[miklcct]

If you can only process distances in km, how do you manage on motorways when sign says X miles to your exit or destination?

Either I try to multiply 1.6 into the number of miles or I disregard that and rely on my satnav (which is configured in metric) or the roadside distance markers (which is in km) for that, and calculate the fuel required in L by using the L/100km figure.

And for speed limits, I treat 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70 as 30, 50, 70, 80, 100 and 110 respectively, which is how things were done in Hong Kong in the conversion process (that's the reason why Hong Kong doesn't have 40, 60 or 90 km/h speed limits legally - a step down from 70 must be at 50 in case of motorway engineering works)

As I am lived and educated in a modern ex-Commonwealth country I have absolutely no sense about how these archaic units at all, and if I encounter things built in these archaic units, I have to translate to the modern units to process them. For example, some old swimming pools in this country were built before metrication and if I swim there I need to do my workouts in blocks of 1100 yards in order to equate them for the 1000 m sets I do in modern pools, and adjust my interval times (which is quoted per 100 m) accordingly. On streets, I just consider the yards as metres anyway as it is well within tolerance for signage purposes.

I believe, as the modern generation is educated in metric anyway, the use of archaic units will eventually die out.

 

[mike57]

The structures on the project I am currently working date from the early 60s, so all drawings are in feet and inches, and a lot of mechanical components are imperial measurement. Certainly a source of confusion for the younger ones who havnt been exposed to imperial measurements in the same way.

The big question is will we ever go fully metric? Roads in km speeds in km/hr, pint to liters, everything else metric. My feeling is probably not because there isnt the appetite for it. Back to the politics, its been seen as a vote looser. This isnt a comment on what should happen its where we are, and where we end up.

 

[AndyPJG]

Like asking for a couple of metres of 4" by 2" (timber)!

When timber supply went metric in early 1970s(?), we had to get 6"x2" timber as 150x50mm, but in multiples of 0.3m! (eg 150x50mm x 12ft long). Also how many people say they need a 2438x1219 sheet of plywood?

working on site once (M25), my ganger measured a trench width for me, said it was "a metre and three inches", we all knew it was 1.075m.

 

[Ediswan]

My bold, but bottled beer has to be sold in metric units.

True, but it can be any amount. There is plenty of canned/bottled beer sold in 568ml measures. Also milk.

 

[urbophile]

Unfortunately, stick-in-the-mud excuses like this are the reason we're stuck with a stupid mix of units. We'll just start going to the pub for "a half" (500ml) instead of pint, it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

It doesn't even need to be that complicated. Pints, pounds etc are not usually used as scientific measurements, just rough and ready quantities. We could carry on talking about pints even if we were drinking half a litre, and 500g is near enough a pound. Just need to ensure that prices didn't increase as a result. (Incidentally, and I realise we are way off topic for a railway website, does anyone know why milk from the corner shop comes in litres, and from a big supermarket in pints?)

PS
Skymonster just outed himself as Jacob Rees-Mogg:
"You speak for yourself… I rather hoped Brexit would allow us to move back to imperial measures."

 

[Mat17]

Not the poster you quoted, but I have my car's speedo set to km, sat navs in km, measure fuel consumption (not economy) in L/100km etc. Just need to know the conversions in your head.

It's funny but I can't do this. I was never good with ratios. So whilst I can use both systems, I tend to pick the one I'm using for the task in hand and do it all in that system. I don't do all the converting and changing from one to the other in my head, I have to keep them separate.

I haven't got a clue how many grams equate to an ounce, but I have a reference point for the weight of a kg or a g, and a different reference point for the weight of an oz or lb. So I can picture in both.

The only place where I fall flat is km, because I have no reference point for this yet and I can't visualise 1000 metre sticks, all I know is that it's A LOT.

 

[dosxuk]

The big question is will we ever go fully metric? Roads in km speeds in km/hr, pint to liters, everything else metric. My feeling is probably not because there isnt the appetite for it. Back to the politics, its been seen as a vote looser. This isnt a comment on what should happen its where we are, and where we end up.

I reckon 25-30 years is the sort of timescale we're talking. There's a lot of inertia behind keeping the same numbers, but it's mostly tradition and rose-tinted glasses that actually stop us from changing. Roads is the big one to change, and will be a logistical nightmare when it comes time to make the change, but only in the same way as changing to decimal currency was, so it shouldn't be seen as an unopposable obstacle. Outside of that, we're only talking about a few things that are entirely about tradition, who will actually notice if their pint of cheap lager contains 68ml less liquid? Could even spin it as a health benefit by reducing the country's drinking...