Is there a reason why off peak services still skip certain stops. I understood this was for pathing but since the GWR services now almost all use the fast lines until Slough/Reading (the Didcot Pakrway service specifically), why do they still skip?
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Why do Elizabeth Line trains still skip stops in the Western Section
- Thread starter A60stock
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
cactustwirly
Established Member
For Pathing reasons, the Didcot Services moving allowed TFL to increase the Elizabeth line service on the relief lines.
They need to skip stop to fit around the freight
Fits more services in, and give some speedier services to outer stations - especially on the Reading branch, and for the likes of Slough to have a semi-fast service. It's slower but the one-seat maths is still compelling.
All stations would eradicate that and see S/M/T people on fasts only.
Even Heathrow T5 has some - which keeps the differential with HEx lower - padded it's about 13 mins but in reality, more like 7-8 'penalty'. You'd likely take a few mins to get downstairs from HEx, and wait for the service you'd have taken - about twenty quid poorer.
All stations would eradicate that and see S/M/T people on fasts only.
Even Heathrow T5 has some - which keeps the differential with HEx lower - padded it's about 13 mins but in reality, more like 7-8 'penalty'. You'd likely take a few mins to get downstairs from HEx, and wait for the service you'd have taken - about twenty quid poorer.
Slough still gets a fast service with the Didcot services now running non-stop and this used to be the semi-fast service too. The semi-fast option for people from Slough/Maidenhead has got slightly worse if - for instance - you were trying to get to Heathrow. But it's not a dramatic time difference to what it was a few years ago and the frequency is higher.
But yes otherwise pathing (freight being a key element) and time benefits for the services to Maidenhead / Reading are the main reasons. It's quite a complicated timetable from a planning perspective east of Heathrow Junction hence why it seems like an odd calling pattern.
I am aware (I alluded to it although S/M/T maybe was not super clear) - my point was that without the semi patterns, the fasts would take even more of the passengers into Paddington, having some faster journeys helps attract people onto Crossrail.
Yes that would be true. Only had limited experience of the 387s running fast from Slough so am unsure what capacity they generally have. And how many people elect for the faster GWR train (benefit) but an additional change (disbenefit) versus the direct (benefit) but slower (disbenefit) Elizabeth line service. A cursory look at the passenger numbers would suggest more people are choosing the latter option.
During the peak there are also a few "fast" peak services to / from Reading which miss out even more stops, such as running non-stop Ealing Broadway - West Drayton. These are remants of old GWR peak services which now start/terminate from Abbey Wood.
The skip-stopping makes sense when you look at the overall picture, but it's very confusing to the average passenger. The Elizabeth line is the only TfL mode where skip-stopping occurs to such a degree and in such an unpredictable fashion. More importantly, the line diagrams at stations and on trains don't even give any indication that some of the stations are skipped - in complete contrast to the Met line diagrams, for example, which clearly set out the patterns.
The customer information at the platforms and on the trains is also lacking - the key question for a last-minute arriving passenger will be "does this train stop at X?". But with the platform CIS scrolling through a long list of calling points rather than displaying them graphically for example (or emphasising the next stop), and the on-train CIS saying nothing more than "this is X", it can be difficult for people to work it out. I've seen plenty of people overcarried or unnecessarily miss a train because they weren't sure.
The customer information at the platforms and on the trains is also lacking - the key question for a last-minute arriving passenger will be "does this train stop at X?". But with the platform CIS scrolling through a long list of calling points rather than displaying them graphically for example (or emphasising the next stop), and the on-train CIS saying nothing more than "this is X", it can be difficult for people to work it out. I've seen plenty of people overcarried or unnecessarily miss a train because they weren't sure.
It is a little. And the issue is that the line is in a constant battle between those who want it to be seen as a quasi London Underground metro and a regional, high intensity mainline railway service. It doesn't fit neatly into either really (unlike Overground which is very much the former and doesn't skip stop except on Weaver lines) so you get these sort of half measures.
MarlowDonkey
Established Member
- Joined
- 4 Apr 2013
- Messages
- 1,878
At peak times aren't the semi-fast services, first stop Reading? "Fast" Elizabeth services compensate for that and also give Windsor a fast service at peaks.
Slough used to get stops on the services to and from Oxford and beyond.
GWR or Elizabeth Line?
MarlowDonkey
Established Member
- Joined
- 4 Apr 2013
- Messages
- 1,878
GWR, but first stop Maidenhead.
MatthewHutton
Member
Couldn’t they just have the lines split it two after Paddington so its clear the Heathrow and Reading/Maidenhead trains are different?
And is skipping Iver really needed for freight? And if it is you could surely have two branches at that point?
What i never understand is why Southall is skipped on some trains. Southall seems like such a busy major station. Whenever i am there it seems as busy as neighbouring Hayes & Harlington which every train calls at. I can kind of understand skipping Acton Main Line / West Ealing / Hanwell / Iver / Langley / Burnham / Taplow as they are slightly quieter than the others. But skipping out Southall on some trains makes no sense.
Only on the Terminal 5 services and peak Reading services (which have a lot of skipping). I can understand the argument for them being added to T5 services which I know some are campaigning for and could indeed happen.
Purple Train
Established Member
They seem pretty well-utilised out of Paddington in my experience, and do take a fair amount of strain off the Elizabeth Line.
Next to nobody - the connection times at Slough aren't dreadful, because of the frequency of the service, but, as the GWR train follows an Elizabeth Line train pretty closely, it is long enough to be inconvenient.
They do then weirdly call at Acton Main Line - extremely useful when I'm trying to get to Acton, but I'd be interested to hear the rationale! Certainly out west there's no appreciable difference in loading between the services with the normal pattern and the likes of 9U69 (the 07.54 from Reading) which go Maidenhead-Burnham-Slough-West Drayton-Ealing Broadway. My recollection of taking it to Acton Main Line is that the overall journey time to Ealing Broadway was only about four minutes quicker, but nevertheless enough that it can be squeezed into a path.
I believe that it was something to do with pathing requiring the Shenfield-Heathrow trains to skip stations like the Maidenhead/Reading trains, but interests for West Ealing dug their heels in and Southall was skipped in its stead. I'm happy to be corrected as this is only a recollection and I'm by no means an expert on the Heathrow services!
Only the fast services in the peak (see above) skip Langley, and nothing skips Burnham: Burnham is very busy in the peaks and at school-times as well. I've only used Langley station once so can't really comment, but it's certainly busier than Iver and Taplow (which are extremely quiet) while not having great local transport links. Southall does have more alternatives, both in times of disruption and when it's skipped, than the likes of Iver, Langley, Burnham, and Taplow do. But I think I've already decried the lack of alternative service provision in disruption elsewhere, so I'll leave it there!
Okay you've said first stop Maidenhead and first stop Reading so unsure what you're asking.
Next stop after Slough being Maidenhead is the standard GWR calling pattern to Didcot Parkway (and vice versa).
I don't think there are any services calling Slough <> Reading without intermediates although there are some first stop Maidenhead if that is what you mean?
E.g. AM peak / PM peak
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
A huge uplift in the number of Acton Main Line passengers since opening, mainly due to a) development in the area b) considerable modal shift from Central line passengers. The station was literally not able to cope with just the 4tph in the high peak hence a few strategic extra stops at the most extreme times.
Purple Train
Established Member
Interesting, thank you!
This was only a somewhat recent change, as many trains were leaving people behind in the mornings
Yes December '24 timetable change.
That would certainly be one way of depicting it. Problem is that there's inconsistency even then, e.g. the T5 trains generally skip Acton Main Line...
and Hanwell and Southall. Depicting all this nuance might be more complicated than not at all.
Giving at least some indication of skip stopping, e.g. a red text box, would help.
boiledbeans2
Member
It used to display them graphically in the early days, with skipped stations struck out. But I remember it was very slow to scroll through the entire map. Some examples here:
The Elizabeth line has been testing new train departure displays
Observant travellers on the Elizabeth line may have noticed that some of the departure boards above the platform doors have been showing different displays from the usual.
www.ianvisits.co.uk
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Anyway, I like the skip-stopping on the western section.
I wish it could be expanded to the eastern section. Non-stop between Stratford and Ilford for example. I remember reading this thread about faster times in the old days:
Shenfield Metro before TfL Rail
I am fascinated by the operation of the "Shenfield Metro" Shenfield - Liverpool Street service (now extended to Paddington and becomes part of Elizabeth line). It is now basically a tube line in all but name, with the 9-car 345 trains all crush-loaded in peak hours running every 4 to 5 minutes...
www.railforums.co.uk
Purple Train
Established Member
Really? I'm sure I used 9U69 to get direct to Acton Main Line last August, and it was exactly the same as now. Or do you mean '23?
May have been May '24 then, but certainly last year.
mangyiscute
Established Member
As someone who often uses the train to get from Reading - Ealing Broadway, the skipping of the inner London stops is definitely appreciated since the trains take long enough as it is, and also the Reading/Maidenhead services are usually busier than the Heathrow services (at least leaving Ealing heading westbound in the evening) so it makes sense for the Heathrow trains to have the extra passengers that the inner London stations produce. The few times I've taken the trains in the evening peak, they have been super busy so skipping Ealing - West Drayton is essential if only to make sure there's space for the passengers heading out further west.
It is also a fair assumption that the local services are more likely to be useful to Heathrow employees - many of whom live in Hayes and Southall (both are main stops) - so those stoppers are helpful.
I would also counter West Ealing for Southall - even the totality of Greenford branch doesn't add many folks, enough for parity.
There is also the Hayes bay - which maybe in peaks or all the time - could turn 2tph, if there was ever a recast. but sounds like LHR T5 is most needed, I imagine that'll be a T4 swap.
I would also counter West Ealing for Southall - even the totality of Greenford branch doesn't add many folks, enough for parity.
There is also the Hayes bay - which maybe in peaks or all the time - could turn 2tph, if there was ever a recast. but sounds like LHR T5 is most needed, I imagine that'll be a T4 swap.
They are generally planned as 1 minute dwells, so yes they are quite a bit longer than the Tube. It adds resilience though, so not necessarily a bad thing.
It does make it feel painfully slow, especially off-peak. I was on a train a while ago that was running late so the dwells were minimal, it felt, and actually was, noticeably quicker
- Status