Why could connection not be held ?

[Jamiescott1]

I had completely forgot about this until I just recieved my generic cut and paste reply from gwr complaints department.

On 16th March (I think) I caught the 1556 from Paddington with the aim to connect to the marlow single track branch.
The 1556 was delayed on journey so arrived approx 4 minutes after the Marlow train was due to depart maidenhead.

My argument to gwr was that as the Marlow train has an 18 minute dwell time in marlow before it returns to maidenhead why couldn't it of waited 6 minutes (4 minutes + 2 mins connection time at maidenhead).
There was 16 people wanting to connect onto the marlow train from the 1556 Paddington departure.

Why couldn't the marlow train of waited ?

*date edited

 

[JonathanH]

On 23rd March I caught the 1556 from Paddington with the aim to connect to the marlow single track branch.
The 1556 was delayed on journey so arrived approx 4 minutes after the Marlow train was due to depart maidenhead.

Have you got the date wrong?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L88420/2022-03-23/detailed

The railway has a principle to run on time. Ultimately, despite the late running of a service from Paddington and the comment about the dwell at Marlow, the instruction to platform staff is to dispatch the train on time.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Have you got the date wrong?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L88420/2022-03-23/detailed

The railway has a principle to run on time. Ultimately, despite the late running of a service from Paddington and the comment about the dwell at Marlow, the instruction to platform staff is to dispatch the train on time.

Have amended the date.
I've got 10 delay repay requests for March in my gwr account so not sure I got the correct one

 

[John Webb]

.....The railway has a principle to run on time. Ultimately, despite the late running of a service from Paddington and the comment about the dwell at Marlow, the instruction to platform staff is to dispatch the train on time.

Presumably this desire to keep to time is due to penalties imposed on TOCs for late running? Not what I'd call in the best interests of the passenger - sorry 'customer'!

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably this desire to keep to time is due to penalties imposed on TOCs for late running? Not what I'd call in the best interests of the passenger - sorry 'customer'!

For every passenger who wanted to make the connection at Maidenhead there may be another already on the train who needs to be in Marlow at 5pm and not 5.15pm.

Having a right time departure policy means there is no ambiguity about how long to hold a connection. In the OP's case of a connection missed by four minutes, it may well have been a ten minute delay by the time everyone wanting to make the connection had made it to the Marlow train.

 

[ExRes]

Does the Marlow train have a dedicated bay platform at Maidenhead?

 

[JonathanH]

Does the Marlow train have a dedicated bay platform at Maidenhead?

It uses a through platform on a loop off the up relief line but there doesn't appear to be anything else booked at that time which needs to use it.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The Windermere branch holds connections all the time - and that's between different TOCs!

As an example, this morning the 0827 was held until 0837 for the late northbound Avanti.

Don't see how it can be so difficult elsewhere - if it's a timetabled connection especially.

 

[ExRes]

It uses a through platform on a loop off the up relief line but there doesn't appear to be anything else booked at that time which needs to use it.

Thanks, I was just wondering if there could be a chance of knock on delays for other services by holding the Marlow

 

[Jamiescott1]

In the 90s when I used to use the sudbury - marks tey branch there used to be a poster at Marks Tey displaying how long the train would wait in the evening peak if connections were running late

 

[Kite159]

It could be worse on Thursday a slightly late running Euston - Crewe rolled into Rugeley Trent Valley at the same time the guard on the Rugeley Trent Valley - Birmingham closed the doors (I could hear the door closing alarm sounding as the doors on the Crewe train opened). The guard departed with a smug look on his face knowing those who tried to make the (official) connection had an hour to wait at Rugeley Trent Valley.

Remember the railways are putting passengers first

 

[miklcct]

It's impossible to hold any mainline trains for connecting passengers without disrupting the whole network.

Such actions are only possible for branch line trains with self-contained working, and without single-line sections.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It's impossible to hold any mainline trains for connecting passengers without disrupting the whole network.

Such actions are only possible for branch line trains with self-contained working, and without single-line sections.

Windermere is single line and interacts with the main line network several times a day…

(Two/three minutes on most lines won’t hurt!)

 

[miklcct]

Windermere is single line and interacts with the main line network several times a day…

(Two/three minutes on most lines won’t hurt!)

It definitely won't be on most lines.

Two minutes in the South West Main Line can already cause trains running in the wrong other, or departing the whole hour of coming trains since the line is at capacity.

Similarly on Brighton Main Line, Thameslink, the future Crossrail, etc.

 

[Jamiescott1]

It's impossible to hold any mainline trains for connecting passengers without disrupting the whole network.

Such actions are only possible for branch line trains with self-contained working, and without single-line sections.

This was a branch line, single track with an 18 minute dwell time at the last station before returning

 

[30907]

This was a branch line, single track with an 18 minute dwell time at the last station before returning

This is perhaps the one train of the day which could be held, as it begins the two-train service on the branch, and doesn't have the normal 3-minute turnround at Marlow.
However, waiting for an 11-minute late train would be exceptional (it's not a cross-platform connection, as you know) because of the inconvenience it would cause to the other passengers on the train.

 

[All platforms]

I can't speak for the Marlow line as i haven't used it yet but i did use the Henley-on-Thames Branch on Sunday. There was a poster or certainly a display board at Twyford that advised that certain services would be held for up to 4 minutes if the incoming train was delayed. They appeared to be around peak time GW services and there was another board which had additional info that they would not hold other specific services - which were the TfL (or do we call them Crossrail yet) services which also called at Twyford around the same time.

This line has a far tighter turnaround time than the Marlow line and the dwell is in the bay platform so it wont affect any mainline service. I can well understand that 4 minutes would be max available without affecting future ones.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It definitely won't be on most lines.

Two minutes in the South West Main Line can already cause trains running in the wrong other, or departing the whole hour of coming trains since the line is at capacity.

Similarly on Brighton Main Line, Thameslink, the future Crossrail, etc.

The South West Main Line, Brighton Main Line and Thameslink all have through services - so the question of waiting for connections is largely irrelevant in most cases.

Equally, the WCML (one of Europe's busiest mixed traffic railways!) manages to hold connections for branch line services. I know Oxenholme is north of the pinch points - but it's hardly like there's loads of capacity for trains to sit around waiting. They often still do.

 

[miklcct]

The South West Main Line, Brighton Main Line and Thameslink all have through services - so the question of waiting for connections is largely irrelevant in most cases.

Lymington, Romsey, Chandler's Ford, Sholing are all examples on branch lines where a connection into South West Main Line is needed.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Lymington, Romsey, Chandler's Ford, Sholing are all examples on branch lines where a connection into South West Main Line is needed.

All places which aren’t full to capacity - north of Basingstoke (iirc) where a two/three minute headway would be necessary doesn’t have any.

 

[miklcct]

All places which aren’t full to capacity - north of Basingstoke (iirc) where a two/three minute headway would be necessary doesn’t have any.

Once a mainline train is delayed while entering Basingstoke / Woking, the knock-on effect to Waterloo will be huge.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Once a mainline train is delayed while entering Basingstoke / Woking, the knock-on effect to Waterloo will be huge.

Isn’t that what pathing allowances are for? To absorb small delays (which a wait for a connection would be?)

 

[dk1]

I think it has to be accepted that it varies greatly across the network. Some routes can & often are held a few minutes. Others however cause far too many knock on effects & passengers should not expect them to wait.

 

[CW2]

Isn’t that what pathing allowances are for? To absorb small delays (which a wait for a connection would be?)

No, pathing allowances exist to resolve a conflict between two timetabled movements. For example, if two trains approach a junction simultaneously on clashing routes, one of them will get pathing time so the other can proceed.
This is shown in the timetable as a figure in brackets e.g. (2).
Performance time is nearer to your suggestion. This is an allowance inserted at specific locations along the route to cater for "contingencies" of any sort.
This is shown in the timetable as a figure in diamond brackets e.g. <2>.
Artificially inflating the station dwell time at certain key locations can also provide a performance buffer.
Creating a decent commercially attractive yet reliable and deliverable timetable is quite an art. I tip my hat to those in the industry engaged in the process.
To answer the original query, I would expect there to be some leeway on branch line services to ensure main line connections are maintained wherever possible. There's still a balance to achieve here though - how long should you hold the Maidenhead to Marlow service for a late connection from Paddington when there are already 30 - 40 passengers on board eager to get home (and maybe with other public transport connections to make for their onward journeys)? There's no easy answer - although publishing a list of "This train will wait x minutes in the event of late running from y" is a good idea.

 

[miklcct]

The mainline train just departed Swansea was held for a connection from a late running 1-car branch service from Shrewsbury, despite trains running every half an hour out of Swansea to Cardiff.

 

[30907]

The mainline train just departed Swansea was held for a connection from a late running 1-car branch service from Shrewsbury, despite trains running every half an hour out of Swansea to Cardiff.

Out of interest, did anyone make the connection?
I presume passengers from the HoW service do travel beyond the border with England?

 

[miklcct]

Out of interest, did anyone make the connection?
I presume passengers from the HoW service do travel beyond the border with England?

I didn't notice anything as we had just bought food and had our meals on board, and that's what I heard from the train manager that our train would stay for a few more minutes because of a late running connecting train, and would try to make up time afterwards. We alighted at Newport and most of the delay was already recovered by then.

 

[miklcct]

I was waiting at Eastleigh for a delayed train to Bournemouth, and saw that the 00:30 train to Portsmouth was held exactly for the purpose of connection. There were dozens of people making this connection.

 

[Andypandy1968]

I was waiting at Eastleigh for a delayed train to Bournemouth, and saw that the 00:30 train to Portsmouth was held exactly for the purpose of connection. There were dozens of people making this connection.

That's because it was the last train of the day.

 

[A0]

I had completely forgot about this until I just recieved my generic cut and paste reply from gwr complaints department.

On 16th March (I think) I caught the 1556 from Paddington with the aim to connect to the marlow single track branch.
The 1556 was delayed on journey so arrived approx 4 minutes after the Marlow train was due to depart maidenhead.

My argument to gwr was that as the Marlow train has an 18 minute dwell time in marlow before it returns to maidenhead why couldn't it of waited 6 minutes (4 minutes + 2 mins connection time at maidenhead).
There was 16 people wanting to connect onto the marlow train from the 1556 Paddington departure.

Why couldn't the marlow train of waited ?

*date edited

It isn't possible to look at the timetable from that date since they've been updated, but if it was 15.56 leaving Paddington then you'd have got to Maidenhead about 30 mins later, which is about the start of the evening peak and when they start to run 2 trains on tge branch, crossing at Bourne End, so late running could start to have a wider impact.