I was just wondering why Kings Cross Thameslink had to be closed when St Pancras opened. The stations are actually a fair distance apart, certainly further apart than Blackfriars and City Thameslink and I would imagine that Kings Cross Thameslink was actually a good deal more convenient for lots of people - the St Pancras station is a bit out on a limb relly, though good for changing onto other services.
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Why close Kings Cross Thameslink
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EM2
Established Member
Because the platforms were too narrow for the growing numbers of people using Thameslink and also too short for the 12-coach trains that will be coming in.
It has no escalators or lifts, so is no use for less able passengers.
Yes, the low-level platforms at StP are a bit away from the Tube but that will change when the new LUL Northern ticket hall opens
It has no escalators or lifts, so is no use for less able passengers.
Yes, the low-level platforms at StP are a bit away from the Tube but that will change when the new LUL Northern ticket hall opens
Snapper
Established Member
It's also worth remembering that KX Thameslink emptied out on to a narrow pavement on a busy road. Hardly ideal.
mackenzie_blu
Member
Fact upgrading Kings Cross Thameslink would have cost nearly as much as building St Pancras International. from a customer point of view St Pancras was the only senseble opition. Plus it gives way better connections.
Does it? Not to King's cross main platforms 1-8, or the tube lines it doesn't!
EM2
Established Member
It takes no longer to P8 from St Pancras Thameslink than it does to P1 from King's Cross Thameslink. I know, because I've checked it.
And it's a lot safer, because you only have to cross one road.
And as I've already said, it will be quicker to the Tube when the new Northern ticket hall opens
Aictos
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You're right there, I went the long way from Kings Cross to St Pancras as in straight down platform 8, go outside then go though the LUL ticket hall, though St Pancras pass the old MML platforms and down the stairs to the FCC platforms.
Found out later that it was just so much quicker leaving the suburban platforms at Kings Cross and just crossing that one road and you're there at St Pancras.
mackenzie_blu
Member
Agreed the SSL connection is crap but the mainline connect and with everything thats about to happen to Kings Cross puts the new station at the heart of it. As said the new Tube ticket hall and the Kings Cross concourse will be alot closer to St Pancras than Kings Cross ever could be.
Sorry I dont agree. Unless you arrive at Platform 8 in Kings Cross I reckon you have allow at least 5 mins longer to connect between a ECML service and a southbound Thameslink train than you had to when Kings Cross Thameslink was open.
The distance from platforms 1 to 7 to St Pancras Low Level is almost twice that to the kings Cross Thameslink Platforms and the pedestrian flows leaving kings cross station towards St Pancras are very poor.
Prior to St Pancras opening I used Thameslink to east Croydon changing there for my Southern service home. However its now 10 to 15 mins quicker to get the Victoria line to Victoria.
Andrew Tiffin
Member
But the station is actually managed by London Underground now and this entrance is open on Mondays to Fridays.
EM2
Established Member
If you're lucky enough to come into P1 and catch a green man at all of the (at least) three sets of traffic lights you have to negotiate, it may be a little quicker. It takes me about seven minutes to walk at a moderate-to-slow pace from FCC platforms at St Pancras to the Info point on the KX concourse, something which I have to do often because I'm assisting less mobile passengers. At my own pace, it takes four minutes.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
It depends on several factors.
I used to love dashing out the east exist of KGX up to the Thameslin stn - if I could. BUT, I also tried it with a friend in a wheel chair and on another occasion, with a bike - I could imagine anyone with suitcases on their way to Gatwick would be equally frustrated.
Very slow and really, pretty much impossible. No lift. and as someone said, short platforms. But I'll miss the place and I DO NOT find the FCC platforms in St P easy or quick to get to. And I resent the poor signage which no longer uses the word "Thameslink" even though we all know that's what we're looking for.
Yes dont like the signage at StP.
It must be very confusing for passgengers who don't know who operates their trains. The departures board is also split up per operator but nothing to point this out, you just have to work it out.
I wrote to point this out but never got a reply.
It must be very confusing for passgengers who don't know who operates their trains. The departures board is also split up per operator but nothing to point this out, you just have to work it out.
I wrote to point this out but never got a reply.
The fact we're even having this debate proves that it is very inconvenient! It was a chance to make a fantastic interchange that was undisputed easier from all lines - and it failed. A missed opportunity. 
Already you see congestion to go upstairs when a busy train arrives. Imagine when 12 car trains arrive every couple of minutes....
Unless they are planning to make build escalators I can see trouble ahead.
There should be escalators and walkways going down to the deep tube lines, in addition to the escalator going up.
Victoria Line to Thameslink must be a popular interchange, given how busy the Victoria line is. Yet that is now infinitely harder than it was before!
Already you see congestion to go upstairs when a busy train arrives. Imagine when 12 car trains arrive every couple of minutes....
Unless they are planning to make build escalators I can see trouble ahead.
There should be escalators and walkways going down to the deep tube lines, in addition to the escalator going up.
Victoria Line to Thameslink must be a popular interchange, given how busy the Victoria line is. Yet that is now infinitely harder than it was before!
Tom C
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Kings Cross Thameslink was a much better interchange station than St Pancras Intl is for the Underground and isn't that great for Kings Cross mainline either if I am honest.
However, Kings Cross Thameslink was very much neglected in its later years and was far to small to cope with the traffic that was there let alone the additonal traffic that STP gets now BF-SV services are running through. It was getting harder and harder to control the crowds and dispatching trains was getting more and more difficult.
As a former Kings Cross Thameslink veteran it was sad seeing the station closed just to see the Thameslink gone name rather than this Capital Connect crap but sadly it was passed its sell by date and although St Pancras has its faults (LOTS of them) it is an improvement in the long term.
EM2
Established Member
It's a project which is still not complete...
And what about the congestion at King's Cross? Where there was no escalators and no lifts? St Pancras gives you three routes up to the concourse, rather than King's Cross's one.
That would be a long convoluted walk from platfrom level. What's wrong with going up to the main concourse, along to the Pancras Road exit and down the escalators there when they open?
See above. As I keep saying, when the LUL have finished the new Northern Ticket Hall, the access to the Victoria, Piccadilly and Northern lines will be much easier and quicker.
St Pancras can't be blamed for that, their end is ready.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
FCC stated that the word Thameslink was not be used on any signage.
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EM2
Established Member
Er, yes it will, because instead of walking all the way up the St Pancras concourse, and then all the way through the LUL ticket hall to the Pic/Vic barriers you will take the 'diagonal' route under Pancras Road.
Think of Pythagoras!
theblackwatch
Established Member
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I would disagree regarding King's Cross main. Having arrived at St Pancras Int on a 319 yesterday evening, I found it much easier to get to KX than I would have done from KX Thameslink - a much wider platform, escalators rather than stairs to contend with, and only one (rather quiet) road to cross then into the side entrance by platforms 9-11. Coming out of KX Thameslink, I would have had to dodge lots of other pedestrians and cross Kings Cross Road, Pentonville Road and York Way, all of which seem to be permanently busy with traffic.
mackenzie_blu
Member
Er, pendtic point here, they wont refer to the service as Thameslink but there are plenty of signage that use the word Thameslink. And the internal stuff complete refers to it as the "Thameslink Route"
EM2
Established Member
I know, but for St Pancras, they were quite specific that the word Thameslink was not to be used, in order to differentiate it from King's Cross. Even though, as you say, they still call it the Thameslink route, and they have City Thameslink & West Hampstead Thameslink stations.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
There IS NOT "plenty of signage that uses the word Thameslink" in St Pancras. Possibly none at all! And if a traveller needs signs to help them find their way, then the signs had better identify whatever the traveller is looking for!
If I arrive at KGX knowing that KingsCross Thameslink has moved then I expect signs with the word Thameslink. Simple.
gordonthemoron
Established Member
KX Thameslink was also very handy for the Flying Scotsman 
EM2
Established Member
That was the point that was being made :roll:
And the reasons why are explained above.
Where ever the location of the station you'll never please everyone, but as I have said before, the biggest crime for the new station is that it only has two platforms.
The cost of providing the extra faces would have been minimal and the incease in operating flexability would have been enormous.
The cost of providing the extra faces would have been minimal and the incease in operating flexability would have been enormous.
EM2
Established Member
I *think*, and I could very well be wrong here, it's mainly because of the very tight curve at the South end. Any train that was in a platform to the East of the existing Platform A, would face a tortuous route across the pointwork to get out.
Having said all that, with the rebuilding at Blackfriars and London Bridge, would it really be necessary?
I take your point (EM2) about the rebuilding work, and possibly the southern end problem.
However, the dwell time at St Pancras is quite long compared to other stations in that section. Having the ability to put two units in together could speed up getting the trains out of section, especially if the outside platforms could connect straight on to the ECML connection without having to run in front of a MML service.
I can see trains on the ECML blocking the entrance to Kings Cross if it is held to wait for a train standing in the existing platforms.
Incidently, does anybody know if the layout between Copenhagen and Gasworks is going to be upgraded. At present, there would be conflicting moves between south running trains going to St Pancras and north bound Kings Cross departures. If the exisiting four tracks were moved across one tunnel to the east (in to the spare tunnel) the 'free' tunnel could be used for direct access to St Pancras. There is plenty of space to have a grade seperated junction north of Copenhagen. Thoughts...
However, the dwell time at St Pancras is quite long compared to other stations in that section. Having the ability to put two units in together could speed up getting the trains out of section, especially if the outside platforms could connect straight on to the ECML connection without having to run in front of a MML service.
I can see trains on the ECML blocking the entrance to Kings Cross if it is held to wait for a train standing in the existing platforms.
Incidently, does anybody know if the layout between Copenhagen and Gasworks is going to be upgraded. At present, there would be conflicting moves between south running trains going to St Pancras and north bound Kings Cross departures. If the exisiting four tracks were moved across one tunnel to the east (in to the spare tunnel) the 'free' tunnel could be used for direct access to St Pancras. There is plenty of space to have a grade seperated junction north of Copenhagen. Thoughts...
EM2
Established Member
The rumour is that once the 319s are gone, dwell times are going to be reduced. However, the door opening system on the 377s is having problems, so the dwell times are actually getting longer!
mackenzie_blu
Member
Dwell times at St Pancras are high as its a recovery point with extra time built into the timetable. Part of the reason for that is all Thameslink route trains get a PPM twice on its jounery so the timing are padded up to decrease risk of double PPM from a single late runner.
Once the new trains come in and the 319 and 377 are gone average dwell time is supposed to be 90 seconds from doors openning to doors closing.
As for the Thameslink/ECML connection, they aren't fully decided yet how its going to be. But I think the plans should be in the pipeline as its supposed to be finish ahead of 2015 openning date for services. Latest rumour is when 12 trains run through the Core in 2012, some ECML will be among them.
As for signage I thought you meant generally Thameslink wasn't being used, not at St Pancras. Not to mention Thameslink was another companies tradename. And there is still a few Thameslink sign in the Tube part, tho in TfL style. To be honest I thin k this is one point where who ever takes over from FCC should rename the franchise Thameslink and keep the name. Ie NX Thameslink for example. People know the Thameslink name and it should stand out like Crossrail will be doing in ten years time.
Once the new trains come in and the 319 and 377 are gone average dwell time is supposed to be 90 seconds from doors openning to doors closing.
As for the Thameslink/ECML connection, they aren't fully decided yet how its going to be. But I think the plans should be in the pipeline as its supposed to be finish ahead of 2015 openning date for services. Latest rumour is when 12 trains run through the Core in 2012, some ECML will be among them.
As for signage I thought you meant generally Thameslink wasn't being used, not at St Pancras. Not to mention Thameslink was another companies tradename. And there is still a few Thameslink sign in the Tube part, tho in TfL style. To be honest I thin k this is one point where who ever takes over from FCC should rename the franchise Thameslink and keep the name. Ie NX Thameslink for example. People know the Thameslink name and it should stand out like Crossrail will be doing in ten years time.
gordonthemoron
Established Member
It was called Thameslink prior to privatisation
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