Why can't TOCs be like Sainsburys

[bakerstreet]

I love reading the comments on this 'Fares, tickets and routeing' section of the site. There is sometimes a real feeling from posters that the railway exists only to rip customers off. And in some cases the answers given would lead you to believe that was true!

I was in the supermarket earlier and was inspired:

I know I may not be comparing like with like so please enjoy the following tongue in cheek comparisons

Although I'd love to know your comments on areas you strongly agree with or disagree with.. And any additions.

+++++++++

Supermarkets:

I can see all types of pasta from every manufacturer at all prices.

TOCs:

Yes this is also true, most of the time with rail fares

++++++++++++

Supermarkets:

If the pasta is on the shelf, I know I can buy and use it now.

TOCs:

I may be able to buy a ticket but I cannot tell by looking if it is ok to travel with now on this train.

++++++++++++

Supermarkets:

If they sell me pasta which is out of date they go to court, even if I could have seen the use by date.

TOCs:

If they sell me the wrong ticket I go to court.

++++++++++++

Supermarkets:

If I am unhappy in any way with something I've bought they will refund or replace (or both) even if I've started it. Even with special or limited offers. And they won't quibble, even if I might be wrong or mistaken.


TOCs:

Will often not refund, if they do they will deduct £10.

++++++++++

Supermarkets:

Even if one packet of pasta appears more expensive than another (by total price) I can check that this is the case by looking at the cost per gram or kg which the supermarket displays for me clearly.

TOCs:

No chance of them telling me the cost per mile for each ticket type and route. I'll have to work that out myself!

++++++++++++

Supermarkets:

I can see if it might be better value to buy 2 for 1 or which types of pasta on that particular day have a discount.

TOCs:

Discounts are often well hidden and sometimes require a code.

++++++++++++

Supermarkets:

I can tell at a glance when the allocation/quota of a cheap special offer may run out by looking at the stocks on the shelves, or asking a member of staff

TOCS:

Don't want me to know.

++++++++++++

Supermarkets:

I can shop at any time but know that if I shop when it's busy I'll queue for longer. But I won't pay more for my shopping.

TOCs:

Will make me pay a huge premium for the priviledge and I'll still queue and won't get a seat.

+++++++++++


Supermarket:

I can park for free if I am a customer.

TOCs:

I have to pay to park if I am a customer.

+++++++++++

Supermarkets:

I can go to an independent comparison site eg (mysupermarket.com) which can tell me if I'd be financially better off splitting my shopping between more than one supermarket. This uses the supermarket's online databases

TOCs:

Forced splitfare.co.uk to be closed down and won't freely release the NFM and supporting paperwork.

+++++++++++

Supermarkets:

Are not governed by anything other than the free market and the law of the land.

TOCs
Are apparently additionally governed by strict rules, including free and fair competition, in order to give the customer a fair deal.

+++++++++++

Supermarkets:

The checkouts and isles always have plenty of staff

TOCs:

Often have no staff in the ticket office or in trains or on platforms.

++++++++++

Supermarkets:

I am always right

TOCs

I am always wrong.

+++++++++

Supermarkets:

Are never closed due to strike action

TOCs:

Are often affected by strike action

+++++++++++

Supermarkets:

Make huge profits

TOCs:

Make huge profits

 

[ChrisTheRef]

You've cheered me up

 

[Big Chris]

stunning, that has cheered up an otherwise dull thursday evening

 

[EM2]

Well, when supermarkets have a timetable for when items are available e.g:

Spaghetti 10.00 11.00 12.00 13.00
Rice 08.15 09.15 10.15 11.15 12.15 13.15
Potatoes (new) 10.25 11.25 12.25 13.25 14.25

etc, etc, then it might be a little bit different.

 

[yorkie]

Very good.

Here is what would happen if a Supermarket was run by a TOC:

- Staff would be badly treated. Strikes would close the supermarket occasionally. No staff rostered on Sundays, all staff would be doing overtime on Sundays. As a result the shop may be subject to short notice closures on Sundays.
- All items would be purchased before you enter the shop. If bought a day in advance it would be a lot cheaper. Items consumed during peak time would be subject to an excess. Club cards not valid before 1000, except at weekends, and only items over £13 discounted, excwept on weekends. OAP discount cards not available in stores in the South East area before 1000. Student discounts subject to £12 minimum price per item before 1000 except during July & August.
- Peak time would be different for each product.
- Penalty purchase inspectors would inspect trolleys for any items not already paid for before entry to the shop. They would make you do a compulsory purchase of the offending item, the price would be £20 or twice the price of the item, whichever is the greater. They would be rude to customers.
- Queues would be massive, and you would have to queue when arriving at the shop to make your pre-purchase.
- If you decide not to proceed with your purchase then you would have to pay a £10 admin charge
- You pre-purchase items that are "any manufacturer" or you can limit them to a particular manufacturer. The manufacturer that is deemed the largest, determines the price of the "any manufacturer" price, but you can purchase the product made by any company. A company that does not set the price can have a company specific price. e.g.
OFF PEAK CRISPS £0.50 Any Manufactuer. Price set by: Walkers. Available: Between 0931 and 1455 and after 1830, but not before 1900 in the Cotswolds, however an easement exists that permits purchases between 1733 and 1830 in Wales. Negative easement: Not valid on Pringles.
OFF PEAK CRISPS £0.45 McCoys Only. Price set by: United Biscuits.. Available: Between 0844 and 1511, and after 1822. Easement: Customers in Warwickshire may double-back to the crisps aisle if also purchasing wine and cheese. Cannot be excessed to any other type of crisps. If you choose a different company, no excess is available. New crisps must be purchased.
ANYTIME CRISPS £0.60 Pringles Only. Price set by: Procter & Gamble. Available: Anytime. Must be consumed within 1 month.
ANYTIME DAY CRISPS £0.55 Pringles Only. Price set by: Procter & Gamble. Available: Anytime. Must be consumed within 1 day.
OFF PEAK CRISPS 2-part multipack £0.75 Pringles Only. Price set by: Procter & Gamble. Available: After 0300. First packet must be consumed within 1 day. Second packet may be consumed within 1 month. Break of eating (first packet): NO. Note: Break of eating is not available where a restriction exists against the validity code.
- Routeing Guide: What happens is you look up the supermarket, it then tells you what map you are entitled to use. You then view the map, and you can take any route in the supermarket on the map without doubling back (passing through the same aisle twice). However you can double back within a group of aisles.
GROUP AILES:
ITALIAN GROUP
Pizza
Pasta
CURRY GROUP
Indian
Chinese
DRINKS GROUP
Wine
Beer
Soft drinks
DAIRY GROUP
Milk
Cheese
Note that this extended validity is for interchanging purposes only. Any customers only purchasing an item within the group, and not going on to purchase additional items may not double back.
The shortest route through the supermarket is also valid.
- Consumers Charter: You should have to queue for no more than 10 minutes however in reality the queues will average 20 minutes. If the queues are less than 30 minutes you will not be elgible for compensation.
- Combining Items: When making a purchase, you are charged a premium unless you pay for each item as a seperate item. When doing this, you have to ensure that your trolley stops when you are placing the item into the basket. You do not have to get any items out of the basket, but the basket must stop. However if you have a season and a non-season then the trolley may proceed non-stop down the aisle as you place the item into it.
- Multipacks: You can reduce the price of multipacks if you pay for each item individually, however you must specifically request this when making a purchase. Otherwise the higher multipack price will be charged.
- Price structure: Prices can be obtained by phoning an Indian call centre, or doing an individual search for each item (after specifying the time you will be purchasing the item and whether you are consuming it that day or within 1 month). If you want a full price list, then a CD-ROM is available at a price of £10.

 

[MCR247]

Well, when supermarkets have a timetable for when items are available e.g:

Spaghetti 10.00 11.00 12.00 13.00
Rice 08.15 09.15 10.15 11.15 12.15 13.15
Potatoes (new) 10.25 11.25 12.25 13.25 14.25

etc, etc, then it might be a little bit different.

Yeah, but you can only get carrots at these times
05.45 12.00 23.50 and thats M-F
07.05 14.03 1857 2040 Sat Only
1200 Sun only

 

[Sleepy]

Very good.

Here is what would happen if a Supermarket was run by a TOC:

- Staff would be badly treated.

I think you will fnd large amount of store staff do feel badly treated - hence a very high staff turnover level. Stores were run on overtime on Sundays and then top brass decided to pay FLAT RATE and make it part of working week !! (due to very weak retail unions). I know shop staff still have the legal right to opt out of Sunday working but the companies do not replace the lost hours during the week and few can afford this. Another reason for poor morale is the way the public speak to store staff like something nasty they trod in - any similar theme to rail here ? I have heard many people complain that getting a refund from Tesco (for faulty items !) is like getting blood out of a stone.

 

[yorkie]

There are 3 types of carrot.
Advance - buy in advance, consume at a specific time
Off Peak - buy any time, consume off peak (note: some staff will refuse to sell at any time as they may suspect you are going to consume it at peak times)
Anytime - buy any time, consume any time
These simple names describe when you may consume the carrot.
SIMPLE!

NOTE: Carrots may be combined, but only at times when all the carrots are valid for consumption, and you must pause at the moment you change from one carrot to the next. Non-stop eating is not permitted when combining carrots, unless one of them is on a standing order and the other is not.

I will now list the types of carrot available at First Nottingham Supermarket Connect :-

OFF PEAK DAY Type: Any permitted. £0.50. To be consumed between 0930 and 1600 or after 1800 on day of purchase. Break of eating: YES
OFF PEAK DAY Type: Autumn King 2 only. £0.40. Consume after 0910 on day of purchase, but not between 1700 and 1730. Break of eating: YES
OFF PEAK Type: Any permitted. £0.55. Consume after 0415 any day up to 1 month.
SUPER OFF PEAK DAY Type: Autumn King 2 only. £0.35. Consume after 1000 on day of purchase. Not valid for consumption within Greater London between 1500 and 1930. Break of eating: YES
SUPER OFF PEAK Type: Autumn King 2 only. £0.45. Consume after 0950 any day up to 1 month. Break of eating: NO.
ADVANCE Type: Autumn King 2 only. £0.05. Consume at time of specifying only. Purchase by 1800 the day before you eat. Quota controlled. Dinner table reservation COMPULSORY. Break of eating: NO. If you consume at a different time, you are liable to a penalty purchase of twice the price for immediate purchase of the carrots, or £2, whichever is the greater.
ANYTIME Type: Any permitted. £0.80. Consume any type at any time within 1 month. Break of eating: YES.
ANYTIME DAY Type: Autumn King only. £0.15. Consume only this type at any time on day of purchase.. Break of eating: YES.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Serious post now...!

I think you will fnd large amount of store staff do feel badly treated

Yes, you are right, and actually that was a bad way of wording it. I should say staff would still be badly treated, but the unions would be a lot stronger, so strikes would result.

I think that in some cases unions are too weak (e.g. supermarkets) and in others they are perhaps a bit too strong/radical (e.g. the RMT!). Overall I support unions but the imbalance of power is rather unfair. But this is going way off topic now!

 

[paul1609]

Youve obviously not been in Tescos littlehampton.
theyre obviously adopting rail industry standards to carrots:
value carrots= xc advance
standard carrots= anytime standard
finest carrots= anytime first
bumper carrot family pack = groupsave
organic carrots = Wsmr first class advance
value tinned carrots = fcc only anytime season
standard tinned carrots = any permitted season
2 for £2 standard carrots = wypte or merseyrail fares.

 

[yorkie]

When buying a load of carrots, is it cheaper to buy individual carrots rather than a packet? But if you say "can I pay for each as a seperate item?" you then get the lower price!

After the Merseyrail meet, we went to a restaurant that charged us a higher meal price than the cost of the individual courses. Mojo and I decided not to ask for the bill to be adjusted to make the items accounted for seperately. Won't go there again though

Someone was also charged more for fish and chips than the cost of individually priced fish and individually priced chips at the chip shop in Thornton-le-Dale. When they asked for the individual price, about 10p was knocked off.

But such incidents are rare outside the rail industry, where it is absolutely rife.

 

[bluenoxid]

I don't get it. All the staff tell me that their TOC's are run by supermarket managers

 

[Dennis]

I suppose split peas would be a lot cheaper than whole peas in the TOC supermarket.

Also, are child fares available on the lager?

 

[90019]

Yeah, but you can only get carrots at these times
05.45 12.00 23.50 and thats M-F
07.05 14.03 1857 2040 Sat Only
1200 Sun only

I thought the carrots were refusing to be sold on sundays as it isn't compulsory and they hadn't got the price increase they wanted?

 

[MCR247]

I thought the carrots were refusing to be sold on sundays as it isn't compulsory and they hadn't got the price increase they wanted?

Oh yeah forgot about that! but rumours are going round that parsnips are going to follow suit

 

[djw1981]

Equally, the staff would be dis-incentivised from joining unions, most would be students, most would be poorly paid, most would have working conditions that current railway staff would not tolerate.

 

[moonrakerz]

Great idea !

TOCs:

If I buy my ticket early I pay about 25% of the price that I would if I bought my ticket on the day of travel

Supermarkets:

If I went to Sainsburys and bought an £8 bottle of wine and said I wasn't going to drink it until the first week in January would they sell it to me for £2 ? :roll:

Actually - I just tried that and the manager told me to "**** off" :cry:

 

[graham125hst]

Can you imagine if a supermarket became a franchise holder for a route?

You could have Tesco Finest for First class travel.

Tesco standard class for standard, strangely enough

Finally you could have the Tesco value class, for cheap as chips fares you get to stand in an old coal truck for the journey.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Well if TOCs were like tesco cheap and chearful I would be happy.

 

[SqUaShIe P]

Maybe tesco should put together a bid for the east anglia franchise in 2011. If a bus company can do it, than whats to say a supermarket cant.
Maybe they could convert buffet cars into supermakert cars, so that commuters could get some shopping on their way home.

 

[90019]

Maybe they could convert buffet cars into supermakert cars, so that commuters could get some shopping on their way home.

The Tesco HST

With the fish counter in coach B :P

 

[Zamracene749]

Hmmm- if only TOCs could have a 'reduced to clear' aisle- unsold seats available an hour or two before the train departs at an appreciable reduction? Oh- hang on they do- but it ain't quite the same:-

Supermarket- reduced to clear carrots-still fresh- was £1.00 a bag now 15p....

TOC- last minute travel- was available in advance for £20 now £200.....and you will probably have to stand most of the way......

 

[janb]

I suppose split peas would be a lot cheaper than whole peas in the TOC supermarket.

A sizeable number of customers would walk past the checkouts without paying, hoping also that the security staff won't stop them. When stopped at the door they will attempt an excuse, and complain about paying a higher price than if they'd paid at the checkouts.

 

[Sleepy]

:roll:

Well if TOCs were like tesco cheap and chearful I would be happy.

:roll: Tesco are NOT cheap - they are usually most expensive of the big four !!

 

[yorkie]

A sizeable number of customers would walk past the checkouts without paying, hoping also that the security staff won't stop them. When stopped at the door they will attempt an excuse, and complain about paying a higher price than if they'd paid at the checkouts.

I bet some do, but the correct analogy would probably be that many customers would not pay for their goods before entering the store and at some stores, the checkout staff are not employed after 1pm, therefore there is no-one to collect your money at the checkout. At other stores, the staff at the checkout have to also stock the shelves and sometimes they have to stock the shelves so often that there isn't time to get to the checkouts. Tesco tried to get someone else to stock the shelves, but they threatened to go on strike so this move was cancelled
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmmm- if only TOCs could have a 'reduced to clear' aisle- unsold seats available an hour or two before the train departs at an appreciable reduction? Oh- hang on they do- but it ain't quite the same:-

Supermarket- reduced to clear carrots-still fresh- was £1.00 a bag now 15p....

TOC- last minute travel- was available in advance for £20 now £200.....and you will probably have to stand most of the way......

To be fair, the TOCs are hardly going to discount trains that are going to be standing room only, and you wouldn't expect them to.

But it is the case that some trains that are nowhere near full do become extremely expensive at the last minute, and where that occurs, it is rather like the supermarket analogy. Examples would include trains that are classified as "peak" trains on certain ticket validities, yet are really either too early, or too late, to be part of the peak flow, or are actually contra-peak. It sounds like Lord Adonis may have discovered this is the case on some East Coast services...

 

[Helvellyn]

Here's one reason why TOCs aren't like supermarkets - do Tesco, Sainsbury's, Morrisons, ASDA, Waitrose, etc, pool their revenue from non-own branded products then divide it based on where people may have shopped and when?

TOCs have to do this where passengers are travelling on routes with more than one operator, or where passengers are using two or more TOCs for the journey they are making. As an example, if you buy a Southampton central to Fareham Off-Peak Day Return, and use SWT both ways, you might think SWT gets all the money. But because Southern and FGW also operate the route, the money is in fact divided up between the three TOCs.

Advance purchase tickets that some people complain about in fact are a way of a TOC managing demand, as well as ensuring the money comes to them. Likewise many of the routing/fare restrictions. Each TOC can't operate independently of each other, and can't ensure all money for every joureny on its trains comes to it.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think TOCs have the right for us to feel sorry for them over ORCATS being unfair - as if they believe it to be unfair for a particular flow, they can appeal. More information would be needed to form a view on it, but ATOC want it to be remain a mystery. So, given that all TOCs must abide by it, they do not have my sympathy there.

I perfectly understand Advance tickets, and I do not claim that people should be allowed to treat them as tickets that allow travel on any train. I do think, however, that the TOCs need to abide by all the rules such as combining tickets being valid. I also think that on some routes the TOCs do not use Advance tickets to manage demand effectively.

For example EC shouldn't have any advance tickets on the 0700 Edinburgh-King's Cross on a weekday (0940 at York). Why? Because it's the first train to allow Super Off Peak tickets into London, therefore it gets very busy! However their departures at 0800 and 0810 from York can be fairly empty - you can get a table to yourself. Yet it's cheaper and more abundant to get advance tickets on the 0940. That makes no sense. Clearly the argument that it is about managing demand has some element of truth to it, but not to the extent that the TOCs would have us believe, in my opinion.