Why can't some ECS movements be opened to the public?

[Bletchleyite]

A lot for me, I have been studying for hours on the train in recent times and would rather not be inconvenienced by the fact we need to get off just so the unit can turn back.

Studying on the train for me provides a good balance between getting work done / enjoying the journey.

I found this worked very well for me as well! But it isn't the basis on which to provide a railway service, which is primarily for the purpose of transport, not for people who for whatever reasons find "sitting on trains" a worthwhile experience.

 

[jamesst]

This is something I have always wondered too. Not sure how it is these days (I know 2 units now stable at Chester overnight and the crew taxi back to Birkenhead), on Merseyrail there were a number of ECS moves returning units from Ellesmere Port and Chester to various stabling locations after their last service of the day (a mix of Rock Ferry, Birkenhead Central, Hooton, Kirkdale, Birkenhead North depot). I always wondered if it would have made sense to run them in service at least part of the way - the guard usually stays on anyway back to base.

Staffing and flexibility. The stabling points of Merseyrail trains, esp the Wirral line, can and often does vary from week to week due to engineering possessions and so forth. As you've said currently units are stabling at Chester overnight, this in itself is only whilst work takes place at Birkenhead Central.
At other locations eg West Kirby the guard doesn't return with the train.

 

[Graham H]

While I would like some of our late night local ecs to provide a later journey option, what about the long ecs journeys during the day that could be used by passengers ? It is notable that some tour operators have started to open up previous ecs workings (Crewe to Eastleigh) for example as mini one way trips in their own right to secure a little extra revenue.

The example usually quoted down here follows the loss of the through cross country services to Portsmouth which hung on as one train a day to/from Guildford which are currently cut back to Reading. However the unit still follows the path as an ecs back to Eastleigh on a two hour plus trip, primarily to retain diversionary route knowledge I assume and I would have thought route knowledge is required for guard/conductor as well as drivers isnt it ? Interestingly the ecs does have dwell time at 3 of the 4 major stations on its journey.

Railway politics presumably plays a part but it is so frustrating that the service from Manchester now terminates in Reading at 20:43. In my case I would be looking to travel on to Havant. The connection to Guildford leaves at 21.01 and I then have the pleasure of a 20+ min wait at Guildford during which time I can watch the ecs of XC train pass through Guildford (it actually has a pathing stop of 4 min on RTT) and head off to where I want to go passing through Havant some seven minutes before my connection gets there. I realise thats not a major delay overall but having to make 2 changes and hang around for 30+minutes on platforms is not attractive to passengers as it is well known that a through train even if slower is an incentive to some.

Maybe a whole new thread on ridiculously long ecs journeys ?

 

[zwk500]

While I would like some of our late night local ecs to provide a later journey option, what about the long ecs journeys during the day that could be used by passengers ? It is notable that some tour operators have started to open up previous ecs workings (Crewe to Eastleigh) for example as mini one way trips in their own right to secure a little extra revenue.

Railtours are completely different economics.

The example usually quoted down here follows the loss of the through cross country services to Portsmouth which hung on as one train a day to/from Guildford which are currently cut back to Reading. However the unit still follows the path as an ecs back to Eastleigh on a two hour plus trip, primarily to retain diversionary route knowledge I assume and I would have thought route knowledge is required for guard/conductor as well as drivers isnt it ? Interestingly the ecs does have dwell time at 3 of the 4 major stations on its journey.

Railway politics presumably plays a part but it is so frustrating that the service from Manchester now terminates in Reading at 20:43. In my case I would be looking to travel on to Havant. The connection to Guildford leaves at 21.01 and I then have the pleasure of a 20+ min wait at Guildford during which time I can watch the ecs of XC train pass through Guildford (it actually has a pathing stop of 4 min on RTT) and head off to where I want to go passing through Havant some seven minutes before my connection gets there. I realise thats not a major delay overall but having to make 2 changes and hang around for 30+minutes on platforms is not attractive to passengers as it is well known that a through train even if slower is an incentive to some.

The only additional traffic this could attract (assuming the Guildford extension does return post-covid) is people boarding at Havant connecting in from the coast. it's a very small market and by not running ECS it gives the option to run via Woking if there are problems on the day.

Maybe a whole new thread on ridiculously long ecs journeys ?

There's been several. The Liverpool-Norwich gets brought up quite regularly in this regard.

 

[Graham H]

Railtours are completely different economics.

The only additional traffic this could attract (assuming the Guildford extension does return post-covid) is people boarding at Havant connecting in from the coast. it's a very small market and by not running ECS it gives the option to run via Woking if there are problems on the day.

There's been several. The Liverpool-Norwich gets brought up quite regularly in this regard.

No, this is the train running south so would attract passengers wishing to go from the north of Reading to Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant and potentially Fareham without the hassle of multiple changes. The old VXC trains to Portsmouth were well used. I agree that the morning ecs back to Reading is at stupid o'clock so not very attractive. Not sure where Woking comes into the scheme of things and 'problems on the day' are part and parcel for any train arent they ?

 

[zwk500]

No, this is the train running south so would attract passengers wishing to go from the north of Reading to Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant and potentially Fareham without the hassle of multiple changes.

Same difference - the market is still quite small for the start/end of day single extension.

The old XC trains to Portsmouth were well used. I agree that the morning ecs back to Reading is at stupid o'clock so not very attractive. Not sure where Woking comes into the scheme of things and 'problems on the day' are part and parcel for any train arent they ?

Diverting via Woking to Eastleigh is an alternative option should there be disruption between Guildford and Eastleigh via Havant (if XC sign it, they probably don't though). And yes, Problems on the day are part of the life of a railway, that's why things like these moves run ECS instead of in passenger service. They can be held/run early/diverted as the service dictates to allow the regular passenger service to run better.

 

[Peter0124]

On the subject of this, as of today there is an Azuma ECS move in each direction between Edinburgh and Glasgow Central

Realtime Trains | 5S04 1152 Edinburgh to Glasgow Central | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 5S04 1152 departure from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3E21 1342 Glasgow Central to Edinburgh | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 3E21 1342 departure from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

What is the point? Why can't this be a daytime passenger service between Glasgow and Kings Cross in both directions? It previously ran to/from Craigentinny but now runs to/from Glasgow empty. I already talked about this in the May timetable change thread but it's here to stay Monday to Friday. This would provide a handy afternoon link between Motherwell and Edinburgh(approx 2 hours after the Scotrail service beforehand)/NE England if it were to be an extension of the corresponding services from Edinburgh (or with some reshuffling to get good paths into Glasgow).

 

[skyhigh]

Why can't this be a daytime passenger service between Glasgow and Kings Cross in both directions?

First question, is there a guard on it?

 

[Watershed]

Diverting via Woking to Eastleigh is an alternative option should there be disruption between Guildford and Eastleigh via Havant (if XC sign it, they probably don't though). And yes, Problems on the day are part of the life of a railway, that's why things like these moves run ECS instead of in passenger service. They can be held/run early/diverted as the service dictates to allow the regular passenger service to run better.

XC don't sign Woking!

I don't have the diagrams to hand but it could well be that the ECS back to Eastleigh is one that has a Reading-based TM. So there is then a real cost to running the ECS in service.

Overall, I do agree that some TOCs run trains ECS simply because of a "that's the way it's always been done" attitude, rather than making a train available to passengers where feasible. The daily ECS from Central Rivers to Reading, which departs New Street at 05:08, comes to mind - that would be quite a useful service for some of the intermediate flows, and has enough pathing for stops to be added at most of the usual stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2022 ==

On the subject of this, as of today there is an Azuma ECS move in each direction between Edinburgh and Glasgow Central

Realtime Trains | 5S04 1152 Edinburgh to Glasgow Central | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 5S04 1152 departure from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3E21 1342 Glasgow Central to Edinburgh | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 3E21 1342 departure from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

What is the point? Why can't this be a daytime passenger service between Glasgow and Kings Cross in both directions? It previously ran to/from Craigentinny but now runs to/from Glasgow empty. I already talked about this in the May timetable change thread but it's here to stay Monday to Friday. This would provide a handy afternoon link between Motherwell and Edinburgh(approx 2 hours after the Scotrail service beforehand)/NE England if it were to be an extension of the corresponding services from Edinburgh (or with some reshuffling to get good paths into Glasgow).

As previously discussed, this is a driver training run.

 

[swt_passenger]

The daily ECS from Central Rivers to Reading, which departs New Street at 05:08, comes to mind - that would be quite a useful service for some of the intermediate flows, and has enough pathing for stops to be added at most of the usual stations.

That’s a Q path and runs as required if there’s a need for a stock change. The incoming unit(s) usually arrive from Eastleigh.