Why can't PTE products have extension tickets?

[yorksrob]

This is all fascinating, but what about the rights of holders of PTE products to boundary tickets?

In particular XC ignoring the NRCoT and not allowing me to travel on their train with a boundary to destination ticket extension.

 

[_toommm_]

This is all fascinating, but what about the rights of holders of PTE products to boundary tickets?

In particular XC ignoring the NRCoT and not allowing me to travel on their train with a boundary to destination ticket extension.

Why are XC not allowing you to do this? What tickets are you attempting/have you attempted to travel with?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A rather obvious problem is how to deal with boundary extensions where one PTE borders another ie Merseyside to GM to WYorks to SYorks. One for TfN methinks but a lot of parochialism/empire building to overcome first!

 

[yorksrob]

Why are XC not allowing you to do this? What tickets are you attempting/have you attempted to travel with?

West Yorkshire metrocard with a Boundary to York return.

This thread is in the context of a large lawsuit that has just been launched against the Southern Region TOC's for not adequately promoting boundary to destination tickets in the South Eastern area.

 

[Mathew S]

A rather obvious problem is how to deal with boundary extensions where one PTE borders another ie Merseyside to GM to WYorks to SYorks. One for TfN methinks but a lot of parochialism/empire building to overcome first!

It's only really a problem where someone holds (for the sake of argument) a TfGM Countycard/Traincard AND a WY Metrocard. Otherwise, you just buy a ticket from the last station covered by your ticket to your destination. I do this often with a GM Traincard and have never had an issue.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It's only really a problem where someone holds (for the sake of argument) a TfGM Countycard/Traincard AND a WY Metrocard. Otherwise, you just buy a ticket from the last station covered by your ticket to your destination. I do this often with a GM Traincard and have never had an issue.

I believe that @yorksrob 's point is that London style Boundary Zone tickets should be universally available across all PTE boundaries without having to worry about the last station. For example on the Chat Moss route Patricroft is a considerable distance from the GM boundary towards Merseyside: a proper BZ facility would surely reduce the cost of crossing that particular boundary. I suspect that the principle that TfN will try to implement is using the existing PTE setups as a basis for a much wider zoning for northern English fares. And I daresay the long distance operators will resist such a move tooth and nail.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

West Yorkshire metrocard with a Boundary to York return.

This thread is in the context of a large lawsuit that has just been launched against the Southern Region TOC's for not adequately promoting boundary to destination tickets in the South Eastern area.

I can't find reference to any restriction in the current Terms of the M-Card for combining it with another ticket in a non-stop split.

 

[_toommm_]

I can't find reference to any restriction in the current Terms of the M-Card for combining it with another ticket in a non-stop split.

Me too. Really unsure why you have that trouble tbh unless it's a rogue guard...

 

[yorksrob]

I can't find reference to any restriction in the current Terms of the M-Card for combining it with another ticket in a non-stop split.

Me too. Really unsure why you have that trouble tbh unless it's a rogue guard...

The guard in question pointed to a completely separate document implying that the conditions of travel in this respect only applied to certain TOC's.

 

[cactustwirly]

The guard in question pointed to a completely separate document implying that the conditions of travel in this respect only applied to certain TOC's.

No that's clearly a breach of contract, the NRCoT (specifically point 14.2) apply to all TOCs including XC.

 

[yorksrob]

No that's clearly a breach of contract, the NRCoT (specifically point 14.2) apply to all TOCs including XC.

Yes, that was certainly my view.

 

[yorkie]

I can't see 'Boundary Zone' extensions being rolled out across PTE areas. Perhaps they should, but good luck with that!

The fact they don't exist is actually a good argument to say normal tickets should be valid on non-stop trains. And as far as I can see, they are.

The guard in question pointed to a completely separate document implying that the conditions of travel in this respect only applied to certain TOC's.

This Guard is talking nonsense. XC do seem to have a minority who make up their own rules.

 

[Silverdale]

The guard in question pointed to a completely separate document implying that the conditions of travel in this respect only applied to certain TOC's.

Was it this document?

 

[Deerfold]

Was it this document?

Which document?

 

[Mathew S]

I believe that @yorksrob 's point is that London style Boundary Zone tickets should be universally available across all PTE boundaries without having to worry about the last station. For example on the Chat Moss route Patricroft is a considerable distance from the GM boundary towards Merseyside: a proper BZ facility would surely reduce the cost of crossing that particular boundary. I suspect that the principle that TfN will try to implement is using the existing PTE setups as a basis for a much wider zoning for northern English fares. And I daresay the long distance operators will resist such a move tooth and nail.

I'm sorry, I may be being dim buy I don't understand the difference? You pay the fare from the edge of your tickets validity to where you want to travel, what difference does calling it a "boundary zone" make?

 

[Deerfold]

I'm sorry, I may be being dim buy I don't understand the difference? You pay the fare from the edge of your tickets validity to where you want to travel, what difference does calling it a "boundary zone" make?

Metro and certain TOCs claim that M-cards are only valid to the last stop the train calls at - on the way to York, that's often Leeds.

 

[Silverdale]

Which document?

The 'this' in my post is a link to: https://www.wymetro.com/media/2280/1910-cross-boundary-leaflet-22318-final.pdf

It does indeed claim that a cross boundary extension ticket must be purchased from the last scheduled stop. It also claims that such combinations of the PTE product with the extension ticket cannot be used on the services of certain TOCs.

How can they attach such conditions to the use of their own product? Oh!

 

[yorkie]

That document is not legally binding if it introduces unfair terms that are not part of the contract.

It says "full fare applies to the part of the journey outside West Yorkshire" but the term "full fare" has a specific meaning in railway ticketing terminology. Clearly it is not intended to have that meaning, so I'd argue it's effectively meaningless. This is just an example of how badly worded and ambiguous their documents are.

The statement "If you have two or more zonal tickets in combination or one is a rail season ticket and one is not, the train does not need to stop at the station where they change from one ticket to another" could be interpreted in different ways; there is an argument to say that any product that has validity for 7 or more days is a "season" and any such product that allows travel on rail is therefore a "rail season", in which case the train does not need to stop.

Metro have a history of sloppy wording, but the NRCoT does allow using such tickets in combination with other tickets, without the train having to call anywhere.

 

[Mathew S]

Metro and certain TOCs claim that M-cards are only valid to the last stop the train calls at - on the way to York, that's often Leeds.

That's flatly contradicted by the NRCOT though. If they tried that with me I would have no problems with seeing them in court. Any TOC that says that is spouting utter rubbish and needs to be told so at great volume.

 

[Silverdale]

That's flatly contradicted by the NRCOT though.

Why does NRCoT apply to a ticket issued by WYMetro? It isn't one of the "Train Companies".

 

[yorkie]

Why does NRCoT apply to a ticket issued by WYMetro? It isn't one of the "Train Companies".

Because NRCoT says:

When you buy a Ticket to travel on scheduled train services on the National Rail Network you enter into a legal Agreement with each of the Train Companies whose trains your Ticket allows you to use. These Conditions set out the rights and obligations of passengers and Train Companies within this Agreement.

It doesn't matter who issues the ticket; NRCoT still applies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was it this document?

That is out of date and refers to wording from 19(c), not the new condition 14.

I think it was WY Metro who had a T&C in their own tickets which barred cross-boundary use where the train didn't stop (even for seasons), but that has now it seems gone. Perhaps the XC guard is harking back to that?

 

[Mathew S]

Why does NRCoT apply to a ticket issued by WYMetro? It isn't one of the "Train Companies".

@yorkie has answered far more eloquently than I would have done but, 'because it does,' essentially.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Because NRCoT says:

It doesn't matter who issues the ticket; NRCoT still applies.

But NRCoT also says:

14.3 Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will
be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets, and you cannot
use such a Ticket in conjunction with another except as set out in 14.1 above.

14.4 In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the
Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for
which each Ticket is valid). It is your responsibility to check that you comply with the
Conditions listed above.

So I suppose WYMetro could, if they felt they wanted to, introduce specific conditions barring split / joining with their tickets, provided they included them in the relevant Ts & Cs and the person buying that ticket was advised correctly.

Whether they actually do that in the correct way in the relevant conditions of course is a different argument.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So I suppose WYMetro could, if they felt they wanted to, introduce specific conditions barring split / joining with their tickets, provided they included them in the relevant Ts & Cs and the person buying that ticket was advised correctly.

Whether they actually do that in the correct way in the relevant conditions of course is a different argument.

I believe they did in the past with their season tickets, but so far as I can tell they don't any more.

 

[Silverdale]

It doesn't matter who issues the ticket; NRCoT still applies.

In the case of a National Rail ticket, the contract of carriage is between you (the ticket holder) and the "Train Companies" under the conditions of NRCoT, whereas for any other ticket it is between you and the issuer of the ticket.

If the issuer of the ticket has a contract or contracts with the various "Train Companies" and others, you (the ticket holder) will be carried in accordance with that contract or contracts. Nothing obliges the issuer of the ticket to ensure that the conditions in their contract(s) with the "Train Companies" align exactly with those of NRCoT.

 

[Starmill]

Whether they actually do that in the correct way in the relevant conditions of course is a different argument.

I am sure that they could. They have just decided not to, as you hint at.

For the record I am aware @Bletchleyite has made the claim that they did before, although I doubt it even then. It has been said before:

It clarifies that some PTE tickets already have "no 19(c) splits" in their T&C. I think WYPTE do this.

Where does it say this in WYPTE's conditions ?

Neil Williams just made it up, I think.

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nrcoc-replaced-by-nrcot-from-1-10-2016.135842/page-3#post-2713856

and it hasn't changed much since 2016.

East Coast briefed their staff to accept non-stopping splits with West Yorkshire products, but to reject them with a South Yorkshire product, on the basis that they do not serve any two stations in South Yorkshire and as such were never a part of the scheme in the way that they are in West Yorkshire. Even they excercised ignorance of the actual terms and conditions and the contracts they might be bound by, and put their commercial interest over them.

Metro and certain TOCs claim that M-cards are only valid to the last stop the train calls at - on the way to York, that's often Leeds.

There's a commercial incentive for CrossCountry to make the claim that this combination is invalid, even though a brief logical analysis can result only in the conclusion that it is. If they make an incorrect claim, some customers will believe them and pay a higher fare as a result. Hopefully yorksrob is not one of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nrcoc-replaced-by-nrcot-from-1-10-2016.135842/page-3#post-2713856

and it hasn't changed much since 2016.

One of the PTEs definitely did have that kind of term in their T&Cs for a while. I'm near certain it was WYPTE but perhaps it was one of the others. However, I don't believe any currently does.

 

[yorksrob]

Was it this document?

Yes, that's the one. A more worthless and badly conceived piece of drivel it's difficult to imagine.

That is out of date and refers to wording from 19(c), not the new condition 14.

I think it was WY Metro who had a T&C in their own tickets which barred cross-boundary use where the train didn't stop (even for seasons), but that has now it seems gone. Perhaps the XC guard is harking back to that?

That is interesting. I didn't notice it referred to an out of date document when the Guard showed it to me.

In the case of a National Rail ticket, the contract of carriage is between you (the ticket holder) and the "Train Companies" under the conditions of NRCoT, whereas for any other ticket it is between you and the issuer of the ticket.

If the issuer of the ticket has a contract or contracts with the various "Train Companies" and others, you (the ticket holder) will be carried in accordance with that contract or contracts. Nothing obliges the issuer of the ticket to ensure that the conditions in their contract(s) with the "Train Companies" align exactly with those of NRCoT.

Then what's the point in having the NRCoT if companies are allowed to ignore them willy nilly. A stick to beat customers with whilst TOC's do what they feel like.

I am sure that they could. They have just decided not to, as you hint at.

For the record I am aware @Bletchleyite has made the claim that they did before, although I doubt it even then. It has been said before:



www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nrcoc-replaced-by-nrcot-from-1-10-2016.135842/page-3#post-2713856

and it hasn't changed much since 2016.

East Coast briefed their staff to accept non-stopping splits with West Yorkshire products, but to reject them with a South Yorkshire product, on the basis that they do not serve any two stations in South Yorkshire and as such were never a part of the scheme in the way that they are in West Yorkshire. Even they excercised ignorance of the actual terms and conditions and the contracts they might be bound by, and put their commercial interest over them.

There's a commercial incentive for CrossCountry to make the claim that this combination is invalid, even though a brief logical analysis can result only in the conclusion that it is. If they make an incorrect claim, some customers will believe them and pay a higher fare as a result. Hopefully yorksrob is not one of them.

To be honest, I'd happily avoid a crappy company like XC and their overcrowded voyagers, however unfortunately their train is the first to York from Wakefield on a Sunday.

 

[Deerfold]

The 'this' in my post is a link to: https://www.wymetro.com/media/2280/1910-cross-boundary-leaflet-22318-final.pdf

It does indeed claim that a cross boundary extension ticket must be purchased from the last scheduled stop. It also claims that such combinations of the PTE product with the extension ticket cannot be used on the services of certain TOCs.

How can they attach such conditions to the use of their own product? Oh!

Thanks - for some reason my device didn't show the colour on your link.

I hadn't seen this update - the bus section contains errors. Boundary point 2 is where the 70 used to cross the border. The services 62 and 903, as listed, pass the junction but don't leave the county.

It also includes buses 74A and X62 which do not accept Metro tickets, but doesn't include CityZap which doesn't either.