Why can't people buy train tickets at newsagents?

[dcsprior]

Suppose they could locate the TVM in the nearest Tesco/Morrisons this would prevent the machine being robbed at night however the superstore will need rent paying

The shop may be happy to have a TVM sited on their premises without requiring any payment - for instance they may believe that there's money to be made from impulse purchases by customers who would otherwise not have been in the shop.

In fact, they may even gain some customers buying a trolley-full: some people are nervous about leaving TOD collection until the day of travel. If they have to do their weekly shopping and go to collect their tickets, they may choose somewhere where they can do both.

and you will struggle to get everyone to use it, some will say the shouldn't have to take a de tour to buy a ticket, fare dodgers won't use it saying they didnt know there was one at Morrisons, and it will be difficult to enforce the penalty fare program so really what's the point

The point would be that if a reasonable proportion of passengers used it, it would reduce the number queuing at the station (or where there aren't facilities at the station, the number needing to buy on board)

TBH I'm not too sure that having TVMs in local shops would actually encourage anyone who doesn't currently buy before boarding to do so. However, it probably would improve the experience for those who already do the right thing. Any benefits it did bring would presumably decrease as Print@Home, m-tickets, smartcards, etc become more widely used - so even if there was additional revenue for railway companies, this may taper off before its paid for itself.

 

[najaB]

Suppose they could locate the TVM in the nearest Tesco/Morrisons ... fare dodgers won't use it saying they didnt know there was one at Morrisons, and it will be difficult to enforce the penalty fare program so really what's the point...

I'm sorry, I don't follow. How does having more ticket machines make it harder to enforce penalty fares?

 

[martynbristow]

On Merseyrail, many of the stations have MtoGo joint shop/ticket offices. I still think it's odd to ask the guy on the till for a railway ticket!

I only by the odd ticket from them
The sandwiches are a rip off, and thats when there reduced to clear!

 

[muz379]

I'm sorry, I don't follow. How does having more ticket machines make it harder to enforce penalty fares?

More isn't necessarily useful if they are in completely useless locations and not on the platform

So having more but situating them in the nearest sainsburys/tesco/starbucks/bookmakers , whatever it is to the station does not make it any fairer to enforce a penalty fare .

 

[najaB]

More isn't necessarily useful if they are in completely useless locations and not on the platform

So having more but situating them in the nearest sainsburys/tesco/starbucks/bookmakers , whatever it is to the station does not make it any fairer to enforce a penalty fare .

I agree it doesn't make it fairer, but I don't see how it makes it harder. If anything, it has no net impact.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

More isn't necessarily useful if they are in completely useless locations and not on the platform. So having more but situating them in the nearest sainsburys/tesco/starbucks/bookmakers , whatever it is to the station does not make it any fairer to enforce a penalty fare .

I would strongly resist the idea that these machines should be situated in bookmakers. There are enough problems with certain other machines in bookmakers at the present time, as a reading of such matters will reveal.

 

[Blinder]

There are regular postings on our forum by people who have problems because they board a train at a station with no ticket facilities, or there is a TVM that doesn't work.

It made me wonder why the number of outlets selling rail tickets is so restricted. In London every other newsagent can sell you tube and bus tickets or top up an Oyster

Wouldn't it be a useful service for tickets to be available in selected newsagents in various towns? Or is the cost if setting it up prohibitive.

A friend of mine owns a Travel Agency and applied to become a "BR" agent. ATOC advised that they needed a "bond" of £30K and then needed to generate £25k worth of "new business" annually. To apply for the license they would also have to pay £250 up front before consideration, which was "non-refundable" should the application fail and that a minimum of 2 staff be trained in "ticketing".

Also, regarding "commissions" TOCs get "commission" from each TOC they sell tickets for under the Rail Settlement Scheme, which was set up in the mid 80's. So a ticket from say Brighton to Edinburgh, each TOC would pay Southern a commission for their sector. This obviously works both ways, so in the end it is just a paper-figure.

This also had repercussions back in the mid 90's when revenue was checked on a "daily basis". A good favourite for example was that "conductor's" using Sportis machines would issue Travelcards to Zone SC1, which was Stratchclyde Zone 1 and not LT Zone 1. The issuing TOC would be "charged" for a ticket say from Brighton to Stratchclyde Zone 1 and not LT Zone 1 and the "conductor" was "debitted" with the difference as a loss.

 

[jon0844]

I would strongly resist the idea that these machines should be situated in bookmakers.

Actually, I quite like the idea of spinning a virtual wheel on a fixed odds betting terminals to win a first class all line rover.

But even though a lot of people in bookies can understand how to place and track some incredibly complex bets, it doesn't mean they're any more likely to understand the range of ticketing options on the railway.

 

[GarethJohn]

If an everyday passenger (including those who work in Tesco's) is expected to work a machine on a platform or buy on-line then why cannot that same person be entrusted too sell them at a non Railway outlet after a little training?
Just think their would be an army of prospective future Rail staff with a little bit of experience too call upon.

 

[jon0844]

I don't see a problem with having a TVM in locations other than train stations, and the person using it has no disadvantage over using one at the station.

It also allows people to collect tickets. In fact, why not just have ticket collection points (thus not needing to handle any money) and encourage people to buy tickets online or via their smartphone? You could even have the same collection point fitted with a Wi-Fi hotspot so people could use their smartphone/tablet/laptop to buy a ticket there and then - and the machine will print.

We all know that in almost all cases, a ticket purchased online is available to collect almost immediately (and could be made to be always immediately with a little effort).

The same equipment could then be upgraded in due course to allow the downloading of tickets to your smartcard, or even potentially to your NFC-enabled device, watch, wrist band or whatever you like.

 

[muz379]

I agree it doesn't make it fairer, but I don't see how it makes it harder. If anything, it has no net impact.

I agree but I think the wording the poster meant was fairer .


I suppose it might be harder because someone could mount a legal challenge against a prosecution saying they where not given an opportunity at the station to purchase . Seeing as that is what the requirement is . The requirement is not you must be in possession of a valid ticket if the sainsburys over the road from the station has a TVM .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would strongly resist the idea that these machines should be situated in bookmakers. There are enough problems with certain other machines in bookmakers at the present time, as a reading of such matters will reveal.

I was not suggesting this


I would not support provision of TVM's anywhere but on stations themselves . in a visible location .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was not suggesting this. I would not support provision of TVM's anywhere but on stations themselves . in a visible location .

Have I misread your comments on posting # 64 ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually, I quite like the idea of spinning a virtual wheel on a fixed odds betting terminals to win a first class all line rover.

But even though a lot of people in bookies can understand how to place and track some incredibly complex bets, it doesn't mean they're any more likely to understand the range of ticketing options on the railway.

The problem arises when the amount of money expanded in such a short space of time goes un-noticed by the gambler, with the expected results. The companies who run these bookmaking outlets are not stupid...they know a good thing when they see one.

 

[muz379]

Have I misread your comments on posting # 64 ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The problem arises when the amount of money expanded in such a short space of time goes un-noticed by the gambler, with the expected results. The companies who run these bookmaking outlets are not stupid...they know a good thing when they see one.

I think you may have misread yeah . I believe the complete opposite of what you are suggesting I mean .

I was saying that for TOCS put loads of TVM's in supermarkets , shops and bookies near to stations and then penalty fair and prosecute people who have failed to use them would be unfair .

If TOC's want to fairly enforce a penalty fare or prosecution the TVM's should be plentiful and in a relevant location like in station buildings or on platforms

 

[najaB]

I was saying that for TOCS put loads of TVM's in supermarkets , shops and bookies near to stations and then penalty fair and prosecute people who have failed to use them would be unfair.

I believe the suggestion was that the TVMs in non-station locations would be in addition to the ones at train stations, rather than instead of.

 

[muz379]

I believe the suggestion was that the TVMs in non-station locations would be in addition to the ones at train stations, rather than instead of.

even that IMO is a waste , why put them in irrelevant locations like this , why not put them all on stations so all passengers can use them rather than ones that want to go in shops etc to use a TVM.

 

[najaB]

even that IMO is a waste , why put them in irrelevant locations like this , why not put them all on stations so all passengers can use them rather than ones that want to go in shops etc to use a TVM.

It isn't necessarily a waste. TVM's in high-traffic areas on the way to train stations or with large numbers of train users can be very useful. For example, I often buy a ticket from the TVM at Edinburgh Airport.
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Another example that I just remembered - my employer has a TVM at head-office in London. It's much more convenient to pick up your tickets as you head through the door, than have to rush to get them at the train station.

 

[theshillito]

Another example that I just remembered - my employer has a TVM at head-office in London. It's much more convenient to pick up your tickets as you head through the door, than have to rush to get them at the train station.

That's one I've not heard of before. Is that a private, non-rail-related business?

 

[jon0844]

As well as, not instead of.

A machine that can issue train tickets purchased online (or on your phone there and then, and collected) and might be able to issue other tickets - e.g. local buses, even the cinema and other local places - would be quite a good idea wouldn't it? It may or may not have cash handling facilities.

Go to the shops, and pick up your tickets for later. Then you're all done. No need to go via the station, which might be a long walk (or a bus ride) away [assume not everyone has a car] or to the cinema to be prepared - as in not having to queue up for either before travel or the film starts, saving time and reassuring some people that might be concerned that they'll have problems. And so on for anything else you might want to have such a machine do.

The retailer that has the machine gets a small fee, and the machine is in an environment where it's probably more secure. Thus, it probably could handle cash and be emptied regularly on site, and restocked quickly.

This in turn would mean less queues at stations as people get used to getting their ticket before on all but most last-minute walk-up travel scenarios.

When I collect from my Amazon locker, I go up with barcode on my phone screen. Wave it under, the door opens (in about 2-3 seconds) and I collect my package and go. Such a machine could have the same scanner, so the ticket(s) I need to collect can be printed in seconds. No hassle, no fuss.

I am surprised ATOC hasn't thought about doing something like this, and working with a company that already has an in with loads of newsagents and retailers like PayPoint plc.

 

[najaB]

That's one I've not heard of before. Is that a private, non-rail-related business?

That is correct, we are not in the rail industry but we have a TVM at head-office and there's at least one other location with one.

 

[martynbristow]

When I went to Germany we just had print at home tickets
Ok a waste of paper but much easier no faff
Wonder why it never caught on here

But thats convenient :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As well as, not instead of.

A machine that can issue train tickets purchased online (or on your phone there and then, and collected) and might be able to issue other tickets - e.g. local buses, even the cinema and other local places - would be quite a good idea wouldn't it? It may or may not have cash handling facilities.

Go to the shops, and pick up your tickets for later. Then you're all done. No need to go via the station, which might be a long walk (or a bus ride) away [assume not everyone has a car] or to the cinema to be prepared - as in not having to queue up for either before travel or the film starts, saving time and reassuring some people that might be concerned that they'll have problems. And so on for anything else you might want to have such a machine do.

The retailer that has the machine gets a small fee, and the machine is in an environment where it's probably more secure. Thus, it probably could handle cash and be emptied regularly on site, and restocked quickly.

This in turn would mean less queues at stations as people get used to getting their ticket before on all but most last-minute walk-up travel scenarios.

When I collect from my Amazon locker, I go up with barcode on my phone screen. Wave it under, the door opens (in about 2-3 seconds) and I collect my package and go. Such a machine could have the same scanner, so the ticket(s) I need to collect can be printed in seconds. No hassle, no fuss.

I am surprised ATOC hasn't thought about doing something like this, and working with a company that already has an in with loads of newsagents and retailers like PayPoint plc.

I wonder why ATOC hasn't thought of this....
Basically starting the closure of booking offices, I would love to see them try
As much as its an amazing idea I think you'd have a revolution first

 

[jon0844]

Once Smart ticketing comes to the trains, the days of ticket office will be numbered anyway. But people buying tickets will mean people travelling, so stations should still be staffed.

And we have all the fun when the unions go on strike to stop it happening to come in the next 5 or 10 years...

 

[martynbristow]

Once Smart ticketing comes to the trains, the days of ticket office will be numbered anyway. But people buying tickets will mean people travelling, so stations should still be staffed.

And we have all the fun when the unions go on strike to stop it happening to come in the next 5 or 10 years...

Indeed
I look forward to the days of smart cards and no booking offices
But look at the LU situation, it will be very painful i guess :/
The unions don't really want people travelling and I'm not sure there *in the interest* of the passenger

 

[razor89]

Indeed
I look forward to the days of smart cards and no booking offices
But look at the LU situation, it will be very painful i guess :/

You "look forward" to no booking offices? Do they offend you that much? if so, why?

The unions don't really want people travelling and I'm not sure there *in the interest* of the passenger

Rubbish.

 

[jon0844]

I don't look forward to it, but it will happen. I do want staff to still be at stations, not unattended and becoming scary and potentially dangerous places to be at any time of day.

Staff will be out performing a customer service roll, giving information and being able to help with ticketing issues by having 'admin' access to TVMs - as happens in Barcelona.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

 

[radamfi]

Red Spotted Hanky installed a ticket collection machine at Imperial College a few years ago.

In the Netherlands they have stopped issuing regular paper tickets in the last month, however they now issue paper smartcards which can only be used once, albeit for a 1 euro surcharge. The plan originally was to scrap paper tickets altogether and close all ticket offices, redeploying staff in a customer service role, but that was too controversial, hence they have the paper smartcards.

The vast majority of trips in the Netherlands are now carried out using plastic smartcards so most people never need to visit a ticket office or even a TVM if they have auto top-up. The smartcards can be topped up in many supermarkets and newsagents etc. not at the manned till, but at a machine like this:

http://www.alblasserdamsnieuws.nl/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/001-Desktop-Resolutie.jpg

So the Dutch should never be in the situation where they arrive at a station and have to miss their train because they didn't allow enough time to buy their ticket.

 

[dzug2]

I don't look forward to it, but it will happen. I do want staff to still be at stations, not unattended and becoming scary and potentially dangerous places to be at any time of day.

Staff will be out performing a customer service roll, giving information and being able to help with ticketing issues by having 'admin' access to TVMs - as happens in Barcelona.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

Trouble is that that means staff at stations will have a fuzzy non revenue earning role - so hey ho a good case for getting rid of them

 

[radamfi]

In Belgium and Switzerland you can buy tickets on the platform using your smartphone.

 

[jon0844]

Trouble is that that means staff at stations will have a fuzzy non revenue earning role - so hey ho a good case for getting rid of them

You make sure having staff at stations is and remains a requirement. What staff do can change, but would people accept getting rid of them completely?

Perhaps some would, but I wouldn't. Our society isn't exactly getting better.

 

[radamfi]

Our society isn't exactly getting better.

In some ways, it is. Crime has continually dropped in most industrialised countries since the peak in the mid 90s. Academics have been puzzled by this trend as it has even continued during the recession, when most people expected crime to increase.

There are also signs that young people are less interested in alcohol than in the past.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-28461530
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27488873

 

[Blindtraveler]

I dont agree with Tickets being sold at newsagents other than PTE products as mentioned but how about Permits to Travel being available, tVMs of any sort arnt good for disabled travelers or the elderly and it would maybe mean that rather than just rushing in with the whole Fare Evader thing (happened to me twice now) G4S could split resauces between catching the real dodgers and directing those with Permits to Travel and an obvious intention to pay to a ticket office or platform vendor?↲