I watched this video a few weeks ago and I remember the woman stating that she couldn't use some stations because the lift was out of order. It made me just wonder with multiple lifts on each floor, a lift being out of order wouldn't stop someone with a wheelchair from using the station.
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Why aren't two plus lifts, for each floor, considered when making a stations wheelchair accessible
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Cost. It's that simple.
Buzby
Established Member
Cost? Even TOCs would love 100% redundancy, but the cost would be double (I doubt there would be economies of scale) but of the faulty lifts I’ve seen - if caused by vandalism, you can be sure the second would be similarly targeted, so back to square on.
That would be ruinously expensive. It’s already very very expensive to make stations accessible with level access and a single lift, having two would be an extravagance in the circumstances the railway can’t afford.
Yeah maybe just wheelchair accessible passageways like ramps.
Two lifts expensive, but it's expensive to build a new line or station already, escalators are probably expensive to run. Especially if there seems to be a lot like at some JLE stations.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
More underpasses would be good, but you have to dig the line up to build them. Bridges with ramps are ugly.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
There's also the question of space. A single lift can fit opposite the steps of a footbridge but where would a second one go? It could result in a wider platform, which gets seriously expensive.
Economies of scale, such as sharing power supplies, would not save much cost and would also make it more likely that the same fault takes out both lifts.
Economies of scale, such as sharing power supplies, would not save much cost and would also make it more likely that the same fault takes out both lifts.
OhNoAPacer
Member
And that helps a non wheelchair user with reduced mobility how exactly?
By not being stairs.
Clearly ramps are acceptable because some stations have them, and they don't go out of order like lifts can.
OhNoAPacer
Member
I know people for whom a ramp is as bad as stairs.
I am not advocating two lifts BTW but arguing against ramps instead of lifts.
I don't have a dog in the fight, as it were. Like it or not, ramps are permitted, and don't break down like lifts do. So I'm surprised they aren't used more, especially at relatively quiet stations.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Many users of ramps are fully fit/able but they are still handy for buggies, wheeled luggage, bicycles and so on. They also have rather greater capacity than slow and small lifts.
I’m not an expert but even if multiple lifts develop the same faults I doubt it would be at the same time. At stations where it seems that a lift breaks down often, Harrow and Wealdstone for example, it’s like only lifts for some platforms break down, not all of them at the same time.
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From the video also I think she complained that some dlr lifts were small. Just like newer tfl buses have larger wheel chair areas I would assume newer lifts would be built to better accommodate wheelchairs and not be too small or uncomfortable. If not it should be a requirement.
When I've seen news of lifts built at stations, there is often either a proud announcement of how easy this is for wheelchair users, or an admission that the site couldn't fit the size of lift they aim for. Compare Tooting and Leatherhead in these Ianvisits links. https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tooting-station-gets-step-free-access-with-two-new-lifts-79250/ https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/step-free-access-coming-to-leatherhead-station-69550/
I am one of those. For anyone with impaired heart and/or lung function it is the effort needed to gain height that matters.
I have already used the new lifts at Leatherhead, and I'm very glad that I no longer have to climb the stairs to get out of the subway.
There would be some economies of scale, for example in design and power supply. But, in most cases the cost of installing more than one lift is going to be prohibitive. I live in an apartment block and I'm reliant on a single lift: what annoys me is not the occasional breakdown, but the breakdowns that are not fixed the same day. For the railway, with lots of lifts of the same design, this should not be a problem as they should have suppliers with replacement components in stock.
But there should have been more than one lift at particularly busy stations, or if lifts are going a long way underground. For example, there is not enough lift capacity to/from the Elizabeth line at Farringdon, or at the St Pancras Thameslink platforms.
ABB125
Established Member
Apparently there's a station somewhere that's currently having 3 lifts installed. I'm told the cost is approaching £10 million.
I dread to think how much it would be if 6 lifts were required instead!
I dread to think how much it would be if 6 lifts were required instead!
MatthewHutton
Member
Well sounds like there is some UK cost bloat going on there too.
Berlin added lifts to its U Bahn for €2m/station as per https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/03/12/construction-costs-metro-accessibility/
miklcct
Established Member
I think for lightly used stations, it will be less costly for replacement transport to be provided from the previous / next station in the rare case when a lift is out of service.
Do multiple lifts often break down at the same time.
I think new infrastructure or new cities, thinking of what I’ve seen of Chinese metro stations and JLE as it was built with a developing area in mind, are often built more with the mind of excess. Some stations, especially ones upgraded for capacity recently have 30+ escalators, was watching a Geoff Marshall video. I wonder how much 30 escalators for one station would cost?
Skyscrapers have multiple lifts do they break down together making the staff to use the stairs? Are they too expensive to maintain?
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Not sure that the footfall at some GB stations now being equipped with lifts, e.g. Alfreton, quite matches Chinese metro stations or new underground lines in London.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Multiple lifts may be on the same power supply, so a power failure could affect all of them.
A skyscraper will have considerable redundancy of power supply and other hardware so a total failure is very unlikely. It may also have technical support on site or very close by. That may be much more difficult for a station that isn't in a major city centre.
Agreed.
We've seen lifts installed at one station at least on the Settle and Carlisle, yet there are plenty of other stations that the money could have been spent on.
It's not just wheelchair users who benefit. Plenty of people find stairs difficult, and then there's people with pushchairs, bikes, luggage...
Which is not to say that S&C stations would be urgently in need of lifts, but lots of people benefit from improved accessibility.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Part of the criteria for selecting Access for All projects is a geographic distribution of accessible stations, so that people whose local station isn't accessible don't have to travel too far to one that is.
I have to admit, I'm in two minds. I don't want to leave people out, or leave them needing a taxi to the next station. On the other hand, if a £3M cost to get two lifts in is the difference between getting a station in or not (thinking of Thorpe Arch near Leeds at the moment, where the station would be next to a road overbridge with a footpath anyway), then I'd be pushing for the cost saving.
Just to take the other view for a moment... One place I think that there should have been redundancy (ie a second lift) is platform 6/8 at Leeds Station. There is enough room for it, especially if they were built together. That lift was out of use a few weeks back, and it caused a lot of issues. It also gets a lot of use. For those that don't know, this is the lift closest to the main entrance. If you're coming in/out that way, and using any platform between 9 and 17 (inclusive), then that is the lift to use. All of the other lifts from the footbridge at Leeds only serve a bunch of platforms or the secondary Southern entrance.
Just to take the other view for a moment... One place I think that there should have been redundancy (ie a second lift) is platform 6/8 at Leeds Station. There is enough room for it, especially if they were built together. That lift was out of use a few weeks back, and it caused a lot of issues. It also gets a lot of use. For those that don't know, this is the lift closest to the main entrance. If you're coming in/out that way, and using any platform between 9 and 17 (inclusive), then that is the lift to use. All of the other lifts from the footbridge at Leeds only serve a bunch of platforms or the secondary Southern entrance.
MatthewHutton
Member
To be fair a massive station like Leeds probably should have two lifts to each platform. Maybe even 3.
Leeds is like the 4th biggest station outside London.
I think it’s difficult to accept that where you have 250k passengers a year or less whether ramps aren’t sufficient.
Surely even for people with fairly weak mobility walking up a couple of flights of stairs in height on a ramp is good for them on balance? And we could have a seat at the top so they could have a rest.
stevieinselby
Established Member
When one lift breaks down, and there's another lift still working, how many managers are going to treat getting it fixed as a high priority when everything else needs attention? So no, they might not break down at the same time, but six months after the first one breaks and when it's still waiting to be repaired, it's certainly not stretching the imagination to think that the second one might well fail as well...
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