Why aren't Advance tickets capped lower than the applicable flexible single fare'?

[markymark2000]

I've just done some searches using the LNER site for journeys betwen Filton Abbey Wood and Cardiff Central and the first option showing up is Advance fares varying from £14 upto £10. Why is this allowed when the anytime single is £14. The maximum fare of an advance single should be £13.95 (preferably lower due to the inflexibility but for the sake of the argument, I will say £13.95). An advance ticket should NEVER be the same price or more expensive than the flexible option. It's no wonder rail passengers get irate with our railways when stupid things like this happen. It certainly doesn't help arguments such as tens of millions different tickets in the ticketing system and yet TOCS are selling advances for a higher cost than the normal open singles. IF this is a mistake, why aren't TOC sites set up to show best value tickets rather than always having advance tickets listed towards the left (to push people to buy them) even when they are the worst ticket to buy (not the worst in general, but the worst ticket type to show based off the journey options being shown to me)

The reason why I say applicable flexible single fare is of course because 'anytime' and 'off peak' ticket costs can very by quite a bit and so where no off peak tickets are available, the advance single fare should be capped at 5p below the anytime fare, or when the off peak ticket is available, advances should be capped at 5p below the off peak fare. This includes where a fare is only valid via a specific route or on a certain TOC. For example if it's a GWR only advance single versus GWR only off peak ticket. Any advance fare which does not meet this criteria, should be removed from the system with immediate effect and why it has been allowed to be kept in the system is very, very poor.

 

[Benjwri]

when the off peak ticket is available, advances should be capped at 5p below the off peak fare.

I agree with the sentiment of most of this, but disagree here. What about advance fares at peak times? If the TOCs can’t offer advances in that range they just won’t offer any at peak times and everyone loses out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with the sentiment of most of this, but disagree here. What about advance fares at peak times? If the TOCs can’t offer advances in that range they just won’t offer any at peak times and everyone loses out.

He said "where the off peak ticket is available". It's clearly not at peak times

 

[markymark2000]

I agree with the sentiment of most of this, but disagree here. What about advance fares at peak times? If the TOCs can’t offer advances in that range they just won’t offer any at peak times and everyone loses out.

Specific quote to deal with such an issue.

so where no off peak tickets are available, the advance single fare should be capped at 5p below the anytime fare, or when the off peak ticket is available, advances should be capped at 5p below the off peak fare.

 

[Benjwri]

Specific quote to deal with such an issue.

Ahhh apologies misread it.

 

[kieron]

A few things I thought of:

In some situations, you can benefit from a bigger discount on advance tickets than on flexible ones. For instance, there's a minimum fare fare 16-25 railcards before 10am. It doesn't cover advance tickets.

Some retailers offer a higher cashback rate for advance tickets.

Flexible tickets often have different route restrictions to advance ones. If the flexible tickets have "via Llandovery" and "via Newport" routes, but the advance tickets only have operator restrictions, the maximum price can't be based on the fares for both routes.

Finally, it must be easier for the train companies to set advance fares without worrying about how much the flexible fares are for every station pair in the flow. This must be doubly so for a company which does not set those flexible fares. If the customer can avoid this problem by buying tickets from a retailer which makes it easy to spot the cheapest ticket they sell, why should the train companies go to this extra effort?

 

[markymark2000]

A few things I thought of:

In some situations, you can benefit from a bigger discount on advance tickets than on flexible ones. For instance, there's a minimum fare fare 16-25 railcards before 10am. It doesn't cover advance tickets.

Only helps in the morning peak. Not sure how many advance fares are available before 10am where the fare is less than £18 (may be many on the fares system but how many actually get advertised for sale) and how many passengers that this would affect. If it's too many, same arguement applies but for after 10am or a small exception to say advance fares can only be sold before 10am at a higher price than the anytime fare, if they are cheaper £18.

Some retailers offer a higher cashback rate for advance tickets.

Who? Where?

Flexible tickets often have different route restrictions to advance ones. If the flexible tickets have "via Llandovery" and "via Newport" routes, but the advance tickets only have operator restrictions, the maximum price can't be based on the fares for both routes.

Clearly what I am suggesting here is like for like. In the examples mentioned, there is no difference in routing restrictions between the open ticket and advance.

Finally, it must be easier for the train companies to set advance fares without worrying about how much the flexible fares are for every station pair in the flow. This must be doubly so for a company which does not set those flexible fares. If the customer can avoid this problem by buying tickets from a retailer which makes it easy to spot the cheapest ticket they sell, why should the train companies go to this extra effort?

Firstly, most travel sites do not make it very easy to get flexible tickets these days. Many sites push towards advance fares because TOCs get more revenue from it versus open tickets because of the revenue split.

Why should train operators go the effort? Well, first and foremost, simplifying the fare system and giving passengers a better experience. All without making fares higher for passengers (all other forms of fare simplification which have been suggested mean higher fares for far too many passengers. Some winners, some losers but this is an easy one to fix and generally please

 

[kieron]

From what you say, you want each rail company to know on Monday what every flexible fare is going to be on Tuesday, and take this into account when they set the advance fares for Tuesday. I think the fares are currently updated daily, so this would need to be twice daily to let train companies set the advance fares based on knowledge of the flexible ones.

You also want them to create a tool to calculate which routes each type of ticket is valid on, and use this to restrict which advance tickets are compared with which flexible ones.

You believe this would be easy to do. I believe it would involve a substantial amount of work, both initially and on an ongoing basis.

You also claim that it is hard for the customer to find flexible tickets. This is not my experience.

If I enter the details for (say) a Lockerbie-Glasgow journey after 4:30 this morning into the Scotrail site on a computer, it brings up a table which contains prices, but no indication of what ticket each price relates to. At the bottom of the table, it has a line on which it says "Compare all available ticket types if you're looking for more flexibility or a specific ticket.".

Clicking on that brings up a table which contains various types of advance and flexible fares. Having managed to enter my ticket requirements successfully, I found the process of locating and clicking on that link "very easy".

The mobile interface is different, and has a few more rough edges, but I don't think your proposal is what it needs.

On your "cashback" question, I don't know exactly what you are asking for. Do you know that there are web sites that offer cashback on various purchases? If so, do you believe that ticket sellers are free to negotiate whatever deal they like with these sites? As far as I know, this is entirely separate from any rail industry system, so can't be synchronised with the fare data.

 

[markymark2000]

From what you say, you want each rail company to know on Monday what every flexible fare is going to be on Tuesday, and take this into account when they set the advance fares for Tuesday. I think the fares are currently updated daily, so this would need to be twice daily to let train companies set the advance fares based on knowledge of the flexible ones.

Fully Flexible fares only change price once per year and increase by the rate set by the government. Semi flexible fares ('GWR Only' or 'TFW Only' options) and advance fares I believe are be updated periodically, not daily. The price changes regularly but that is because TOCs say 'sell x amount of tickets at this price, then sell x amount of tickets at a slightly higher price' and so on, so forth. It's not a person in an office going 'I think that train should cost £23 today and £25 tomorrow, then £21 the next day'

You also claim that it is hard for the customer to find flexible tickets. This is not my experience.

Harder, not hard. A number of sites will push people to buy advance tickets even if the fully flexible ticket is the same price. Some TOCs are better than others though as this.

If I enter the details for (say) a Lockerbie-Glasgow journey after 4:30 this morning into the Scotrail site on a computer, it brings up a table which contains prices, but no indication of what ticket each price relates to. At the bottom of the table, it has a line on which it says "Compare all available ticket types if you're looking for more flexibility or a specific ticket.".

Clicking on that brings up a table which contains various types of advance and flexible fares. Having managed to enter my ticket requirements successfully, I found the process of locating and clicking on that link "very easy".

The mobile interface is different, and has a few more rough edges, but I don't think your proposal is what it needs.

That's one site. UK train operators use about 6 different systems, then you have the other sites which are not connected to TOCs. Generally, advance fares are in the leftmost column and so even if you provide the other ticket options, people are naturally more swayed towards the tickets on the left or at the top. They aren't playing battleships on the mixing desk booking engines. Many of us on this forum will be more likely to hunt for cheaper fares but not everyone is like us on the forum, other people see ticket for that journey and pay it and not realise that it's not the best value ticket.

On your "cashback" question, I don't know exactly what you are asking for. Do you know that there are web sites that offer cashback on various purchases? If so, do you believe that ticket sellers are free to negotiate whatever deal they like with these sites? As far as I know, this is entirely separate from any rail industry system, so can't be synchronised with the fare data.

You said the following:

Some retailers offer a higher cashback rate for advance tickets.

So I am asking which sites offer a higher cashback rate for advance tickets. I am asking you to provide evidence of your claim.

I know full well of operators doing cashback deals but generally this seems to be a blanket percentage or sometimes a higher percentage if you book a TOC specific ticket, on the TOCs own site but I have never heard of advance tickets being offered more cashback than flexible tickets. Hence why I am asking for proof.

 

[lookapigeon]

I have noticed SWR really push the "Advance Single" on their website to the detriment of other more flexible and cheaper fares for the passenger.

For example, if I choose a little adventure to the seaside from my nearest station WYB to PMH leaving after 12:00 returning the same day after 17:00 I get offered 1x single on outward leg @ £17.60 and 1x advance single on the return leg @ £14.30. Total = £31.90 with restrictions and you must travel on the chosen train.

Super offpeak return - £27.50 - leave on any train after 12:00 and return within a month.

Where is the logic in that? The cynic in me presumes they're just betting the passenger will not take one of fixed trains on one of the legs and just have to buy a new ticket entirely.

Also, if you have a railcard (and add it at the point of sale) it still pushes two separate tickets - the super offpeak single on the outward leg and a standard advance on the return leg - total cost £31.75. So much for your 1/3 off (!).

If you press the more fares button, the super offpeak return appears at a bargain cost of £18.15.

Don't get me wrong you can get some very good prices if you are very advanced in your planning however it is poor behaviour that the booking engine pushes completely overpriced and inflexible fares, surely if you add a return journey and a railcard logically it should present the cheapest (all in one) return ticket compatible with your railcard?

No wonder the railway industry can't shake off the image of being a rip off with tactics like this.

 

[miklcct]

I have noticed SWR really push the "Advance Single" on their website to the detriment of other more flexible and cheaper fares for the passenger.

For example, if I choose a little adventure to the seaside from my nearest station WYB to PMH leaving after 12:00 returning the same day after 17:00 I get offered 1x single on outward leg @ £17.60 and 1x advance single on the return leg @ £14.30. Total = £31.90 with restrictions and you must travel on the chosen train.

Super offpeak return - £27.50 - leave on any train after 12:00 and return within a month.

Where is the logic in that? The cynic in me presumes they're just betting the passenger will not take one of fixed trains on one of the legs and just have to buy a new ticket entirely.

Also, if you have a railcard (and add it at the point of sale) it still pushes two separate tickets - the super offpeak single on the outward leg and a standard advance on the return leg - total cost £31.75. So much for your 1/3 off (!).

If you press the press the more fares button, the super offpeak return appears at a bargain cost of £18.15.

Don't get me wrong you can get some very good prices if you are very advanced in your planning however it is poor behaviour that the booking engine pushes completely overpriced and inflexible fares, surely if you add a return journey and a railcard logically it should present the cheapest (all in one) return ticket compatible with your railcard?

No wonder the railway industry can't shake off the image of being a rip off with tactics like this.

Can you show me the picture? Is it on the new frontend or the old MixingDeck frontend?

 

[Bletchleyite]

From what you say, you want each rail company to know on Monday what every flexible fare is going to be on Tuesday, and take this into account when they set the advance fares for Tuesday. I think the fares are currently updated daily, so this would need to be twice daily to let train companies set the advance fares based on knowledge of the flexible ones.

Eh? There's the odd exception, but in practice walk-up fares are only changed once or twice a year, not at random, and regulated ones can only be changed at the official fare change dates. It may be physically possible to change them daily but no TOC does.

Perfection is the enemy of the good, anyway. We could be left with the odd one, but it would at least get rid of most of these sillies.

 

[Haywain]

For example, if I choose a little adventure to the seaside from my nearest station WYB to PMH leaving after 12:00 returning the same day after 17:00 I get offered 1x single on outward leg @ £17.60 and 1x advance single on the return leg @ £14.30. Total = £31.90 with restrictions and you must travel on the chosen train.

Super offpeak return - £27.50 - leave on any train after 12:00 and return within a month.

Where is the logic in that? The cynic in me presumes they're just betting the passenger will not take one of fixed trains on one of the legs and just have to buy a new ticket entirely.

Also, if you have a railcard (and add it at the point of sale) it still pushes two separate tickets - the super offpeak single on the outward leg and a standard advance on the return leg - total cost £31.75. So much for your 1/3 off (!).

If you press the more fares button, the super offpeak return appears at a bargain cost of £18.15.

But as you as you press 'Continue' to purchase the selected tickets, it shows this box to tell you that there is a cheaper ticket, which is the aforementioned Super Off Peak Return:

 

[sprunt]

But as you as you press 'Continue' to purchase the selected tickets, it shows this box to tell you that there is a cheaper ticket, which is the aforementioned Super Off Peak Return:View attachment 141305

By which point, the passenger may have decided to drive instead. Okay, £1.90 is probably not going to swing that decision, but if you're going to offer the cheapest price at some point in the process, it seems like it would make commercial sense to do so at the earliest opportunity to reduce the chances of the customer deciding not to press 'Continue'.

 

[Haywain]

By which point, the passenger may have decided to drive instead. Okay, £1.90 is probably not going to swing that decision, but if you're going to offer the cheapest price at some point in the process, it seems like it would make commercial sense to do so at the earliest opportunity to reduce the chances of the customer deciding not to press 'Continue'.

You mean like this (the OP referred to the LNER site and Filton Abbey Wood to Cardiff Central)?

Image shows search from LNER website with walk-up for highlighted with 'Cheapest' flag.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The wording at the top of the columns on that is quite naughty, designed to make you think an Advance is worth paying more for! It's not a lie, but it's definitely weasel worded, e.g. there are benefits of walk-up fares that are not stated like refunds.

 

[Haywain]

The wording at the top of the columns on that is quite naughty, designed to make you think an Advance is worth paying more for! It's not a lie, but it's definitely weasel worded, e.g. there are benefits of walk-up fares that are not stated like refunds.

You can't argue that the cheapest ticket isn't highlighted though.

 

[30907]

The wording at the top of the columns on that is quite naughty, designed to make you think an Advance is worth paying more for! It's not a lie, but it's definitely weasel worded, e.g. there are benefits of walk-up fares that are not stated like refunds.

I can read "no refunds"

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can read "no refunds"

It doesn't explicitly say the flexible ticket is refundable, though. It appears to be specifically worded to scare people off by creating FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt).

 

[MrJeeves]

Not sure how many advance fares are available before 10am where the fare is less than £18 (may be many on the fares system but how many actually get advertised for sale)

Quite a lot on GTR, in my experience, especially going from the south up to London.

 

[markymark2000]

You mean like this (the OP referred to the LNER site and Filton Abbey Wood to Cardiff Central)?

To be fair, that was one example. It's worth saying though that people are swayed towards the ticket on the top left rather than searching around between ticket types to find the cheapest. That journey option doesn't have a lot of ticket options, some other journey options could have a lot of ticket options which would make it harder to find the cheapest ticket.

Or perhaps if you are unlucky enough to use Hull Trains, it says tickets £14 then as you click into it, it defaults to the £18 advance ticket. Next option First Class Advance. You have to keep going to get the £14 anytime single.

Quite a lot on GTR, in my experience, especially going from the south up to London.

How many does that translate to in the grand scheme of things though? Yes some exist (as you have highlighted and are highlighted above). If you check other dates or surrounding stations though, it is almost always that there is no advance ticket option showing or the advance is around £20.

 

[MrJeeves]

If you check other dates or surrounding stations though, it is almost always that there is no advance ticket option showing

Well, yes, advances aren't available to/from all stations?

or the advance is around £20

Well, yeah, if you look for tomorrow they will be. That's simply how demand works?

Look for next Monday and they're ~£16. Tuesday they're ~£6 arriving into London at 9:30am.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

The wording at the top of the columns on that is quite naughty, designed to make you think an Advance is worth paying more for! It's not a lie, but it's definitely weasel worded, e.g. there are benefits of walk-up fares that are not stated like refunds.

£15.50 gets you a guaranteed seat, whereas the £14 ticket doesn't, right? That's how I read it

 

[Bletchleyite]

£15.50 gets you a guaranteed seat, whereas the £14 ticket doesn't, right? That's how I read it

It's not true. If reservations are available, you'll get one with either ticket, generally speaking.

It is possible for TOCs to set things up so Advances get one and walk-ups get a counted place (TfW used to do the opposite) but I'm not aware of LNER doing that, and if they did you can just go on the website and make a separate reservation. So it may technically be true in some cases but it's highly (and deliberately) misleading and disingenuous. It's probably just about within the law with regard to the Fraud Act, but it's skirting a VERY fine line, and LNER should really know better.

The only time there has ever been a reason to buy an Advance when a walk-up was available at a lower price was during "Book with Confidence", when an Advance would be refunded in full but a walk up refunded minus £10.

 

[MrJeeves]

£15.50 gets you a guaranteed seat, whereas the £14 ticket doesn't, right? That's how I read it

That's how it's written, but it's not exactly true... Anyone can make a reservation for any valid ticket (or even without a ticket in many cases). Many advance tickets don't even offer guaranteed seats (e.g., GTR, GWR on non-IET services, SWR).

 

[lookapigeon]

By which point, the passenger may have decided to drive instead. Okay, £1.90 is probably not going to swing that decision, but if you're going to offer the cheapest price at some point in the process, it seems like it would make commercial sense to do so at the earliest opportunity to reduce the chances of the customer deciding not to press 'Continue'.

Which is exactly what I ended up doing, not for the cost of the fare, but I found somewhere to leave the car on the island and walk/bus it to where I needed to get to.

I wasn't even aware of the additional screen after, but even still, the cheapest and most flexible offer should be presented and it shouldn't need an encyclopaedic knowledge of the ticket types.

Can you show me the picture? Is it on the new frontend or the old MixingDeck frontend?

I don't have a picture but I assume that the new frontend is whatever is currently on the SWR site?

I haven't heard the term "mixingdeck" for years - when I last heard it, it was when they had the "squares" on the ticket buying page. I remember GWR used it ages ago, but I'm not a particularly frequent train passenger.

 

[30907]

That's how it's written, but it's not exactly true...

Not quite: guaranteed seat on LNER vs May not include a seat reservation.
Carefully worded to be strictly correct

 

[Adam Williams]

Is it ever the case on an LNER service that a flexible-ticket customer may receive a counted place reservation, whilst an Advance ticket customer receives an actual seat?

 

[Haywain]

Is it ever the case on an LNER service that a flexible-ticket customer may receive a counted place reservation, whilst an Advance ticket customer receives an actual seat?

Yes, it is. Although that should only occur when Advance quotas are sold out.