Why aren’t people without tickets prosecuted as trespassing?

[Adam1997]

I’m aware they may be nuances in regards to the different application of bye laws, but I don’t see why me boarding a train without a valid ticket and me walking onto the railway are two different things. I think the £1000 fine for trespassing plus prosecution costs would be a lot more scary to fare evaders.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I’m aware they may be nuances in regards to the different application of bye laws, but I don’t see why me boarding a train without a valid ticket and me walking onto the railway are two different things.

Whilst both scenarios do involve a person being on railway's property without authorisation, Trespass carries a far higher risk of death / injury to the guilty; and the levels of disruption and impact to other personnel (e.g. railway staff, passengers, emergency services).. You typically will not get electrocuted, or hit by a moving railway vehicle, whilst boarding / travelling without valid ticket.

I am, however, fully supportive of any viable means to reduce the current "culture" of travelling without a valid ticket for the full journey and thinking: that's OK, I won't pay.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m aware they may be nuances in regards to the different application of bye laws, but I don’t see why me boarding a train without a valid ticket and me walking onto the railway are two different things. I think the £1000 fine for trespassing plus prosecution costs would be a lot more scary to fare evaders.

People are prosecuted for fare evading or not having a valid ticket, the maximum fine is also £1000 and the person needs to pay costs and a surcharge. (This notwithstanding, there are numerous reasons why people board trains without a valid ticket and multiple defences)

Trespass is not a Byelaw offence. Here is a previous thread which you might find interesting: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-constitutes-trespass-on-the-railway.141995/

 

[Adam1997]

Penalty fares can of course exist for people who make an honest mistake

Whilst both scenarios do involve a person being on railway's property without authorisation, Trespass carries a far higher risk of death / injury to the guilty party. You typically will not get electrocuted, or hit by a moving rail vehicle, whilst you're boarding or travelling without valid ticket.

I am, however, fully supportive of any viable means to reduce the current "culture" of travelling without a valid ticket for the full journey and thinking "that's OK, I won't pay".

That’s a good point but I feel the looming threat of a £1000 fine plus costs may reiterate the seriousness of the offence and deter someone looking to try it on

 

[Sun Chariot]

Penalty fares can of course exist for people who make an honest mistake

That’s a good point but I feel the looming threat of a £1000 fine plus costs may reiterate the seriousness of the offence and deter someone looking to try it on

I absolutely agree with having higher fiscal Penalty for fare avoidance / evasion. Your OP contains two subtly differing points and my post #2 seeks to explain why Trespass and Fare Evasion do differ.

The appeals process is there for those users who have been incorrectly given a Penalty Fare. Honest mistakes, in my view, still contravene the very clear Railway Byelaws regarding the lack of valid ticket.

I see far too many threads stating "I didn't realise my railcard / season ticket expired". My response is: why not?
I used a 16-25 railcard in the 1980s to early 1990s; and I had season tickets 1994-2012. I took a personal responsibility to ensure they were valid.

 

[Puffing Devil]

That’s a good point but I feel the looming threat of a £1000 fine plus costs may reiterate the seriousness of the offence and deter someone looking to try it on

Any "maximum" penalty is simply a scare tactic and will rarely be reached, as these are bands parliament sets for offences.

In reality, for most offences* that merit a fine, you'll pay no more than 150% of your weekly income + surcharge + prosecution costs.

Same for prison sentences - these are normally derived from the published sentencing guidelines and don't come close to the maximum. Even then, you're out after 50% of time served, even sooner if the prisons are full and you keep your nose clean. That 8 years inside becomes 4 at the most as soon as you hear "take them down".

*There are higher fine bands, but not worth discussion in this context.

 

[nw1]

I see far too many threads stating "I didn't realise my railcard / season ticket expired". My response is: why not?
I used a 16-25 railcard in the 1980s to early 1990s; and I had season tickets 1994-2012. I took a personal responsibility to ensure they were valid.

Try and show a bit more empathy towards people that make honest mistakes!

We all make honest mistakes from time to time. Things like Penalty Fares, parking tickets, or library fines, are designed to deal with such situations. A non-criminal penalty which might focus the mind in future but does not leave someone with a criminal record.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Try and show a bit more empathy towards people that make honest mistakes!

We all make honest mistakes from time to time. Things like Penalty Fares, parking tickets, or library fines, are designed to deal with such situations. A non-criminal penalty which might focus the mind in future but does not leave someone with a criminal record.

Absolutely and my point is driven by posts where an OP is:
a) fully aware that what they were doing was wrong; or
b) seemingly not taking the personal responsibility for their genuine error.

 

[AlterEgo]

Absolutely and my point is driven by posts where an OP is:
a) fully aware that what they were doing was wrong; or
b) seemingly not taking the personal responsibility for their genuine error.

What sort of higher fiscal penalty than a court fine are you thinking of?

 

[Sun Chariot]

What sort of higher fiscal penalty than a court fine are you thinking of?

I have no specific fiscal value in mind; nor am I versed about what happens now.
What I do hope for, is a way that can reduce the scale of fare avoidance / evasion, which I see so often in threads akin to: "Help - I didn't pay my fare and how do I now avoid facing the consequences / a court summons?"

 

[AlterEgo]

I have no specific fiscal value in mind; nor am I versed on what happens now.
What I do hope for, is a way that can reduce the scale of fare avoidance / evasion, which I see so often in threads aki ln to: "Help - I didn't pay my fare and how do I now avoid facing the consequences / a court cummons?"

The penalty for fare evasion is a fine of up to £1000, a criminal record, and having to pay the prosecution's costs, as well as all the fares evaded.

The best way of reducing fare evasion is to increase the likelihood of being caught, in my view. The threat of prosecution seems like is does not deter the behaviour.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The penalty for fare evasion is a fine of up to £1000, a criminal record, and having to pay the prosecution's costs, as well as all the fares evaded.

The best way of reducing fare evasion is to increase the likelihood of being caught, in my view. The threat of prosecution seems like is does not deter the behaviour.

That is exactly what's needed, you've hit the nail on the head perfectly.
ANPR increases likelihood of police forces' catching vehicle Tax / Insurance avoiders.
I wonder if facial recognition offers a way (now, or future) for stations' CCTV data to be integrated with wider urban CCTV and police intel?

 

[AlterEgo]

That is exactly what's needed, you've hit the nail on the head perfectly.
ANPR increases likelihood of police forces' catching vehicle Tax / Insurance avoiders.
I wonder if facial recognition offers a way (now, or future) for stations' CCTV data to be integrated with wider urban CCTV and police intel?

There's an older thread about this which was very interesting: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ai-cctv-analysis-at-willesden-green.262693/

 

[Sonic1234]

The best way of reducing fare evasion is to increase the likelihood of being caught

Yes. If there was a 100% chance of your ticket being checked (not just by a machine), the "penalty" would just need to be buying a valid ticket. Those trying it on with short fares and discounts would soon learn it's not worth it as they'd have to repurchase the right ticket.

What we have currently is a system where you are highly likely to get away with it (especially if you travel infrequently or away from busy times) but harsh penalties if you are caught, especially if you buy online.

 

[JGurney]

I don’t see why me boarding a train without a valid ticket and me walking onto the railway are two different things.

I suspect a key difference is that holding a ticket does entitle you to board a train but does not entitle to walk on the line. Does criminal trespass upon the railway require going somewhere where the public, whether ticket-holders or not, are not allowed to go?

 

[Sun Chariot]

I suspect a key difference is that holding a ticket does entitle you to board a train but does not entitle to walk on the line. Does criminal trespass upon the railway require going somewhere where the public, whether ticket-holders or not, are not allowed to go?

Yes to your last sentence. And Post #2 might be of use too