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Why are XC always late?

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LBSCR Times

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Does it sometimes happen where a xc trains gets a delay for whatever reason early in in the route, causing it to be late enough to loose its path later on in a route and so have to wait a new path?

Once it gets late, then it is regulated for on-time services, so that those on time arrive within their PPM.
It is not only XC that get treated like that, quite a few other TOC's do too.
Ask any traveller on an on-time FCC heading south from Blackfriars, and how they get regulated once they are through London Bridge......
 
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SamS

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Having travelled several times a week with Cross Country between September 2013 and May this year I have so say they were usually on time. There were a couple of occasions when they were 30 minutes delayed into York, but that was rare.

I regularly got the 17:21 SHF - YRK (which was a HST) and it was occasionally late. Sometimes the lateness had been picked up around Bristol (once due to Animals on the line and a second time Trespassers on the line).
http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/H...MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2&MxArCl=5
 

Parallel

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I think the problem is, is that XC operate through so many major stations and junctions, picking up delays is probably quite easy to do with often little room to regain time on significant delays. From experience the BTM to Manchester Piccadilly service is fairly reliable, as is Bournemouth to Manchester. Services from Paignton/Penzance/ Plymouth and Cardiff - Nottingham seem to be less reliable but in the SW it seems more often than not this is attributed to delays on the FGW network.
 

Hyphen

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I think most of us will agree that XC's problems are more than punctuality, which, in relation to their short, cramped, uncomfortable trains, ludicrously high fares, and useless reservations system is actually one of their better features!

Precisely this.

Where possible I do actively avoid catching services run by Voyagers, but as I live in South Wales and have family in the E.Mids (and previously spent 2 years living in S.Wales, working in S.Yorks) I'm very, very familiar with their Nottingham-Cardiff service.

Since XC took over that service from Central Trains, reliability of it has improved hugely - there's no semi-regular curtailing of the service at Birmingham (outside of major disruption), Sunday services now run through (CT used to like to schedule them as separate NOT-BHM and BHM-CDF on Sundays, with no care for those wanting to connect) and the timekeeping (outside of major disruption) is usually fairly spot on.

However, Off-Peak Return prices between Cardiff and Nottingham have shot up since 2007 - I don't know how they compare with ticket price increases nationally but they do feel significantly more expensive than they used to. Advances are also now incredibly hard to come by, which makes it feel even worse.
 

Qwerty133

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Last Friday I arrived at Leicester approximately 16:55 (off the 16:21 from Derby), wanting to travel home. The 16:48 to Birmingham although not really relevant as it doesn't stop at my station, was no where to be seen and was expected at 17:09, and the 15:52 from New Street had arrived on platform 1 where it should form part of the 17:18 to New Street, along with the 16:09 from New Street.
Someone within XC decided to send this unit as the 16:48, to not add any stops, and with a already decided upon train crew who were present and for once with platform staff aware. Of course there were already passengers for stops the 16:48 doesn't stop at on board, and the unit eventually left for Nuneaton, Coleshill and New Street around 17:07. While this was happening the 17:18 was announced as a platform alteration to platform 4 and 1k23 arrived on platform 4 at 17:04 (RT), with the train crew for the 17:18. XC control then decided to try and get the unit from the original 16:48 to attach on arrival at Leicester, which at this point was estimated at 17:16, making an 17:18 departure impossible. Around 17:23 with no sign of the arrival from Standsted the decision was made to send the severely overcrowded 2 car unit solo to Birmingham. Of course by this time we had to wait for the London train to go from platform 3, so the 17:18 was eventually 9 minutes late and at 40% of it's booked capacity.
By the time the other train had left it was only around 10 mins ahead of 17:18, so they needlessly disrupted another service in order to avoid paying Delay Repay for Nuneaton and Birmingham passengers without thinking about any of the consequences for the smaller stations (with over 700,000 users between them), simply because it's cheaper for them to be 20 mins and 10 mins late on separate services than 30 mins late on 1 service.
 

talltim

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The EMT service was not held awaiting the XC to overtake, it was held ironically waiting for another late running XC service to depart Platform 6 as booked, before then going into Platform 7. Last time I did that EMT service we got held outside awaiting the XC departure from platform 6 which was late too.
I believe you are right, thinking about it. Still had the same effect for me tho!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've just done a quick evaluation of yesterday's XC services stopping at Chesterfield (some pass without stopping), in both directions. As far as I know there were no major issues.
There were 41 services (including one VAR from the WTT).
25, or 61% were more than one minute late departing.
7, or 17% were more than 5 minutes late departing.
1V81 0601 Sheffield to Reading managed to lose 21 minutes from a right time departure from Sheffield to Chesterfield, but it travelled via Beighton. It remained late throughout its trip.
1V68 1508 Edinburgh to Plymouth lost most of its time between Wakefield and Sheffield, leaving Chesterfield 24 late. It then gradually made time up, becoming on time by Newton Abbot.

I know trains aren't officially late until 5 mins, but the passenger doesn't see it that way, 61% is quite a high figure. 1 minute can also make the difference between getting and missing a path, causing further delay. The total of lateness (rounding down part minutes) was 124 minutes, so an average of 3 minutes late each.
 
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The Planner

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1V68 got hammered by being behind 2N35 then following 1B89 which was also late. Something happened at Leeds which went down to XC which started the delay off though.
 

Hyphen

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1V81 0601 Sheffield to Reading managed to lose 21 minutes from a right time departure from Sheffield to Chesterfield, but it travelled via Beighton. It remained late throughout its trip.

Yeah, but that was timetabled to travel via Beighton. I could understand it being 15 or so minutes late if it was scheduled via Dronfield and travelled Beighton, but 45 minutes to get from Sheffield to Chesterfield on any route is a little ridiculous!

I think they're normally timetabled 12 minutes SHF-CHD via the usual route.
 

Martin_1981

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I went to take photos of the xc HST on the Penzance to Leeds on Saturday 28th June. It was 6 late by Camborne, but on time by Leeds.

It left Exeter 8 mins late, and was on time at Birmingham New Street, having done Cheltenham-Birmingham in 37 mins, which certainly isn't bad for a 35-40 year old HST and considering it had the 1:37 Lickey Incline to contend with.
 

Jeni

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I fairly regularly use XC between Stockport to Birmingham, usually getting the xx16 (due to arrive at xx33) to connect with the xx49 LM service on to Droitwich.

A fair majority of the time, the XC service that I'm on arrives into Birmingham between 10-20 mins late (despite leaving practically on time) making my connection either difficult or impossible.

People may suggest that a 10 min delay is 'nothing', but when the 10 min delays are this frequent, you can't plan any journey involving connections with these guys.

That said, LM are often just as bad in reverse, the xx33(ish) from Droitwich to connect with the xx31 to Stockport often causes me a mad dash across New Street.

XC are good at being late, except for when you need them to be!
 

BestWestern

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GaryMcEwan:1838521 said:
I never had any problems with XC, there has been the odd occasion where it's been a couple of minutes late, but the Scottish conductor kept everyone highly amused with the annoucements...

This one will always stick in my mind...'Right troops, we're gonnae be late. Deal wae it.' And everybody burst out laughing. TOC's could pick up some tips from conductors like this if they can get away with it...

Fantastic! :D
 

43074

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Last Friday I arrived at Leicester approximately 16:55 (off the 16:21 from Derby), wanting to travel home. The 16:48 to Birmingham although not really relevant as it doesn't stop at my station, was no where to be seen and was expected at 17:09, and the 15:52 from New Street had arrived on platform 1 where it should form part of the 17:18 to New Street, along with the 16:09 from New Street.
Someone within XC decided to send this unit as the 16:48, to not add any stops, and with a already decided upon train crew who were present and for once with platform staff aware. Of course there were already passengers for stops the 16:48 doesn't stop at on board, and the unit eventually left for Nuneaton, Coleshill and New Street around 17:07. While this was happening the 17:18 was announced as a platform alteration to platform 4 and 1k23 arrived on platform 4 at 17:04 (RT), with the train crew for the 17:18. XC control then decided to try and get the unit from the original 16:48 to attach on arrival at Leicester, which at this point was estimated at 17:16, making an 17:18 departure impossible. Around 17:23 with no sign of the arrival from Standsted the decision was made to send the severely overcrowded 2 car unit solo to Birmingham. Of course by this time we had to wait for the London train to go from platform 3, so the 17:18 was eventually 9 minutes late and at 40% of it's booked capacity.
By the time the other train had left it was only around 10 mins ahead of 17:18, so they needlessly disrupted another service in order to avoid paying Delay Repay for Nuneaton and Birmingham passengers without thinking about any of the consequences for the smaller stations (with over 700,000 users between them), simply because it's cheaper for them to be 20 mins and 10 mins late on separate services than 30 mins late on 1 service.

More issues on the Leicester line again today, as there were delays due to power supply issues near Stansted. The 15:27 from Stansted was delayed by 90 minutes, and as a result of this, the unit off the 15:52 from Birmingham to Leicester was drafted in to work the 17:48 to Birmingham, starting from Leicester. This meant the 17:18 Birmingham to Leicester was formed of two coaches only - instead of the usual five - because usually the unit off the 15:52 couples to the unit off the 16:09 from Birmingham to form the 17:18 to Birmingham. It looked rather cosy as I observed it's departure from Leicester.
 

jaffa

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I think its true that XC's reliability has improved and I am not disputing that. However, whenever I look at any XC service, it is almost always delayed, whether it is by 1 minute or 100 minutes! In my area, if you have a look at the arrivals and departures at Banbury, for XC they are far too often not running to their timetable. It bothers me as it defeats the object of having accurate minutes on the timetable, and makes connecting public transport services a nightmare. Eg this vs this. OK, not a fair comparison for various reasons, but I think XC should be doing more to replicate the reliability and timeliness of other TOCs.
 
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Qwerty133

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More issues on the Leicester line again today, as there were delays due to power supply issues near Stansted. The 15:27 from Stansted was delayed by 90 minutes, and as a result of this, the unit off the 15:52 from Birmingham to Leicester was drafted in to work the 17:48 to Birmingham, starting from Leicester. This meant the 17:18 Birmingham to Leicester was formed of two coaches only - instead of the usual five - because usually the unit off the 15:52 couples to the unit off the 16:09 from Birmingham to form the 17:18 to Birmingham. It looked rather cosy as I observed it's departure from Leicester.

'rather cosy', would be an understatement! (I was on that service).
They could have used the unit from the 15:52 which was 3, considering what time they became aware of issues could have tried to find crew and send the spare Voyager to work the 16:09 and 17:18, swapped the 16:09 unit with the 16:22 at Leicester, rejigged what unit the 16:09 was formed of by swapping with a Nottingham service, or if they had to use the 2 car unit add additional stops into the 16:48, so the passengers that were early could be taken off the train.
 

455driver

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but I think XC should be doing more to replicate the reliability and timeliness of other TOCs.

Lets say the Dundee to Plymouth gets delayed 45 minutes at Edinburgh due to signalling problems, where do you propose to turn the service short so the train can regain its path on the return journey, after all that is what the other TOCs do!

Its because of the journey length on XC that they cant really do anything about the trains getting delayed. Well unless you are advocating splitting the services up (and so forcing people to change trains) at some convenient stations, lets say Newcastle, Leeds, Birmingham and Bristol with each train only running between 2 adjoining stations that way a delay on one leg wont have any effect on the other legs, end result more trains on time but boy will the passengers be moaning!

If that isnt what you are after then please feel free to post your suggestion, I assume you have one!
 

jaffa

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Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to have the trains split up - after all how many people are doing a jourmey such as Edinburgh to Plymouth via a direct XC train when they can change trains and get from A to B faster? The other suggestion is to allow a longer time at the destination before starting the return journey. Or how about creating more padding in the timetable? As something doesn't seem to be working.
 

455driver

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I have caught 4 XC trains from Exeter to Plymouth this week (flippin families <D) and every one of them has been on time (except one which left 2 minutes late but was RT Plymouth) they had all started in Scotland as well, so I would say that in my experience they do rather well.

Maybe we need another thread asking why people exaggerate all the time when it comes to trains running 30 seconds late on a 400 mile journey! ;)
 

dk1

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I have caught 4 XC trains from Exeter to Plymouth this week (flippin families <D) and every one of them has been on time (except one which left 2 minutes late but was RT Plymouth) they had all started in Scotland as well, so I would say that in my experience they do rather well.

Maybe we need another thread asking why people exaggerate all the time when it comes to trains running 30 seconds late on a 400 mile journey! ;)

My sentiments (& experience) exactly :D
 

Martin_1981

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One XC service I have noticed which often runs late is the 0632 York to Plymouth on Saturdays. Nearly always seems to lose around 10 minutes in the Bristol area and is often 15 mins down by Exeter. Yesterday it was 14 mins late at Exeter and last Saturday it was about 7 mins down.
 

LBSCR Times

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One XC service I have noticed which often runs late is the 0632 York to Plymouth on Saturdays. Nearly always seems to lose around 10 minutes in the Bristol area and is often 15 mins down by Exeter. Yesterday it was 14 mins late at Exeter and last Saturday it was about 7 mins down.

Here we go......

1V46 06.45 York to Plymouth was on time as far as Cheltenham but then delayed as follows.
2F97 09.08 Worcester SH to Westbury delayed Cam & Dursley to allow
1V45 07.07 Manchester Piccadilly to Newquay to overtake.

The fun now starts....

1V45 was on time from Manchester Piccadilly but late by Stockport due to a train planning issue with 3 sets of ECS moves from Longsight, booked through an engineers possession. As a result it was regulated for the on-time 1R50 05.20 Nottingham to Liverpool service.
Now 9' late Wolverhampton, so followed 2A09 08.21 Wolverhampton to Walsall stopper, and 13' late Birmingham New Street.

The rest is history, as they say!!
 
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louis97

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Here we go......

1V46 06.45 York to Plymouth was on time as far as Cheltenham but then delayed as follows.
2F97 09.08 Worcester SH to Westbury delayed Cam & Dursley to allow
1V45 07.07 Manchester Piccadilly to Newquay to overtake.

1V45 went ahead at Gloucester Yard Junction, and didnt delay 2F97 at all, it departure Gloucester 1 late, 2F97 must of had some kind of issues with passengers loadings or wheelchair users to get on/off at Cam and Dursley to cause that dwell time. The extended dwell at Yate suggests that the service was fairly busy and that was causing extended dwell times. So nothing to do with 1V45 - if 1V46 regularly is delayed in this area it suggests an issue with the FGW service capacity at that time going into Bristol. Outside of XCs control really - like many of the reasons they can be delayed to be honest.
 

Minilad

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Here we go......

1V46 06.45 York to Plymouth was on time as far as Cheltenham but then delayed as follows.
2F97 09.08 Worcester SH to Westbury delayed Cam & Dursley to allow
1V45 07.07 Manchester Piccadilly to Newquay to overtake.

The fun now starts....

1V45 was on time from Manchester Piccadilly but late by Stockport due to a train planning issue with 3 sets of ECS moves from Longsight, booked through an engineers possession. As a result it was regulated for the on-time 1R50 05.20 Nottingham to Liverpool service.
Now 9' late Wolverhampton, so followed 2A09 08.21 Wolverhampton to Walsall stopper, and 13' late Birmingham New Street.

The rest is history, as they say!!

Welcome to my world.
If only we could have some decent, common sense, regulation. And not just following the book and slavishly aiming for PPM
 

talltim

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On Saturday I was going to catch the 08:08 XC service from Chesterfield to Tamworth, but it was cancelled between Leeds and Derby (i.e it was cancelled at Leeds and a northbound service was cancelled at Derby and turned around) They described both cancellations as being due to a train failure, which was true, but it didn't make their reliability sound good to the average punter.
Oh, Delay repay coming up!
Having said that my train this morning was exactly on time.

I still say that especially for XC, where they cross some many other routes, one minute late can make a big difference, missing paths causing greater delays.
 

LBSCR Times

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1V45 went ahead at Gloucester Yard Junction, and didnt delay 2F97 at all, it departure Gloucester 1 late, 2F97 must of had some kind of issues with passengers loadings or wheelchair users to get on/off at Cam and Dursley to cause that dwell time. The extended dwell at Yate suggests that the service was fairly busy and that was causing extended dwell times. So nothing to do with 1V45 - if 1V46 regularly is delayed in this area it suggests an issue with the FGW service capacity at that time going into Bristol. Outside of XCs control really - like many of the reasons they can be delayed to be honest.

Hmmmm, so someone told the Trust clerks a pack of lies......
Unless it has been disputed since I last looked!
 

Martin_1981

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Here we go......

1V46 06.45 York to Plymouth was on time as far as Cheltenham but then delayed as follows.
2F97 09.08 Worcester SH to Westbury delayed Cam & Dursley to allow
1V45 07.07 Manchester Piccadilly to Newquay to overtake.

The fun now starts....

1V45 was on time from Manchester Piccadilly but late by Stockport due to a train planning issue with 3 sets of ECS moves from Longsight, booked through an engineers possession. As a result it was regulated for the on-time 1R50 05.20 Nottingham to Liverpool service.
Now 9' late Wolverhampton, so followed 2A09 08.21 Wolverhampton to Walsall stopper, and 13' late Birmingham New Street.

The rest is history, as they say!!

The 07.07 Manchester-Newquay had virtually made up the lost time by Exeter St Davids, however it then lost a small amount of time again as the 09.06 Paddington-Penzance HST which I caught from Exeter-Plymouth was 6 minutes late leaving Exeter due to the volume of passengers boarding/leaving at Exeter.
 

LBSCR Times

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Well there isn't any loop at Cam & Dursley for a start! :lol:

I've no idea, just quoting what Network Rail put in to Trust......
Other than doing a CCF Replay I wouldn't like to say exactly what happened,
I was merely explaining how XC services can lose time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 07.07 Manchester-Newquay had virtually made up the lost time by Exeter St Davids, however it then lost a small amount of time again as the 09.06 Paddington-Penzance HST which I caught from Exeter-Plymouth was 6 minutes late leaving Exeter due to the volume of passengers boarding/leaving at Exeter.

Yes, but if one's journey was only from Manchester to Birmingham, then it would have been over 20' late.
Hence why to some people XC can always appear late.
 
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