Why are Wrightbus standards deteriorating?

[class387]

In the past, Wrightbus was one of my favourite bus manufacturers. I'm not sure whether it is just me who thinks this, but in my opinion Wright buses are so much worse than how they were a few years ago, to the point of making some of the worst buses in their categories.

Today a Sullivan's Buses Streetlite turned up instead of the usual E200 (which in my opinion is far superior despite its own issues) or double decker. I have been on Uno and Arrival Streetlites before and they were awful, but what surprised me was how bad the Sullivan's one was for a 67-plate bus. The acceleration was jerky and slow and it rattled constantly. I've always found single deck Wrights before the Streetlite to be acceptable, so why is it so awful?

It's the same story with the Gemini. The original Gemini 1 is still one of my favourite buses. It looked far ahead of its time and still looks modern today. They also rode superbly and were generally well built. I did not find the Gemini 2 to be an improvement, but it looked slightly nicer and gave an acceptable ride. The new Gemini 3/Streetdeck however, again has a jerky rattly ride. Furthermore, the styling is awful and the upper deck is extremely claustrophobic due to the small window and thick pillars obstructing the front view.

Has anyone else noticed this trend?

 

[CM]

I blame the operators who have been shouting at manufacturers for ages to build lighter weight single and double deckers. The lighter the weight means the cheaper and less durable the materials used to build them.

 

[class387]

I blame the operators who have been shouting at manufacturers for ages to build lighter weight single and double deckers. The lighter the weight means the cheaper and less durable the materials used to build them.

But there are many companies who make better lightweight buses - new Optare Solos are good and the Metrodecker is superb, while the E200MMC is an improvement on the original Enviro200 and is no heavier.

 

[fowler9]

I really don't like the hybrids in Liverpool. They are jerky as anything when changing gear or when the diesel engine kicks in, they rock and roll all over the place, are ugly and I hate the tiny too deck windows. To be fair a lot of that is down to the chassis, engine and hear box I guess.

 

[507021]

I really don't like the hybrids in Liverpool. They are jerky as anything when changing gear or when the diesel engine kicks in, they rock and roll all over the place, are ugly and I hate the tiny too deck windows. To be fair a lot of that is down to the chassis, engine and hear box I guess.

I don't like the small upstairs windows on those either mate, the headroom isn't great either.

On the whole I think they're nice to drive, but a few of them are a bit slow moving off on battery power.

 

[F Great Eastern]

But there are many companies who make better lightweight buses - new Optare Solos are good and the Metrodecker is superb

Unfortunately a quick look at the sales figures for Streetlite vs Optare Solo and Metrodecker vs Gemini 3 and StreetDeck suggests your views are not shared by the industry.

I know an operator who approached Optare for a set of vehicles and WrightBus and both gave quotes. The WrightBus price, including the projected costs of spares and maintenance and availability of parts and fuel was in double figures of percentage cheaper.

As for the Gemini 1, WrightBus replaced it because it was getting slaughtered in the marketplace as operators were simply not prepared to pay a premium for vehicles that were well built and guzzled more fuel as it left it at a significant cost disadvantage against their rivals.

You won't touch the Gemini 1 for build quality, but it's just not a viable product anymore.

 

[507021]

You won't touch the Gemini 1 for build quality, but it's just not a viable product anymore.

Completely agree, I've driven ex Arriva London VLWs and they were excellent all-round buses.

 

[Surreyman]

I have always disliked Wright bodywork although I will concede that the Gemini 1 was a classic design.
The argument between 'Better heavier build' versus 'Lighter cheaper to run' has been going on for decades i.e Bedford/Ford back in the sixties/seventies, I guess it' is engineers versus accountants.
It all boils down to design and taste I guess, I find the Streetlite to be the ugliest design ever, I absolutely hate it when Go Ahead order a batch. It does seem that First and Arriva have gone off Streetlites in the last couple of years, whether that is down to reliability issues or cost of ownership I don't know.
The worst experience for me was when Stagecoach had a batch of Streetlites for Sheffield, they just look so wrong in Stagecoach livery, I think they were specced by South Yorkshire.
I imagine the recent general reductions in orders for new buses for the UK means that there is real price war going on for every order, ADL seem to be mostly winning this.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Unfortunately the ownership links between Stagecoach (the leading Bus Company) and ADL (the leading bus manufacturer) is one of the worst things to happen to the industry and has no doubt been a factor in the current situation as well as they can use each others position in the marketplace to help each other out when it comes to costs and getting the spec of vehicle that they want at a good price.

You then have a situation where if ADL for instance build a cheap and lightweight vehicle that you can be sure Stagecoach will be the first customers of, the other manufacturers have to play catch-up and in the meantime the other bus companies are faced with buying an ADL vehicle that has shareholders in common with it's biggest rival, or buying a vehicle from another manufacturer that means they can't compete on cost with Stagecoach.

 

[GusB]

Unfortunately the ownership links between Stagecoach (the leading Bus Company) and ADL (the leading bus manufacturer) is one of the worst things to happen to the industry and has no doubt been a factor in the current situation as well as they can use each others position in the marketplace to help each other out when it comes to costs and getting the spec of vehicle that they want at a good price.

You then have a situation where if ADL for instance build a cheap and lightweight vehicle that you can be sure Stagecoach will be the first customers of, the other manufacturers have to play catch-up and in the meantime the other bus companies are faced with buying an ADL vehicle that has shareholders in common with it's biggest rival, or buying a vehicle from another manufacturer that means they can't compete on cost with Stagecoach.

It could be said that Stagecoach have always favoured Alexander for bodywork. This was apparent in their orders for Olympians, Darts and Volvo B6 in the early 90s, and similarly with more recent purchases. However, it hasn't precluded them from placing orders from other manufacturers either. The Plaxton Premier Interurban was essentially a Stagecoach innovation - they recognised that there was still a market for a "dual-purpose" type vehicle that was no longer catered for. Didn't they also order a small number of similar vehicles from Wright's? I really don't see what the "ownership links" have to do with it.

A manufacturer will come up with a bespoke specification quite happily if they know that it will generate significant orders. Wright seemed to do well with bulk orders from First and companies like Lothian, but recent orders would suggest that those operators have drifted away.

 

[Volvodart]

It was the same before Stagecoach had any "connection" with Alexander's, they usually always bought Alexander's.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I blame the operators who have been shouting at manufacturers for ages to build lighter weight single and double deckers. The lighter the weight means the cheaper and less durable the materials used to build them.

You do have a good point, but it's far more than just that. Rather than block up the page i've put my full reply in the "quote" below to save space!

The Wrightbus range, especially the Streetlite stand out as being horrendous for build quality and are only getting worse it seems. This is reflected in the fact both Lothian and FirstGroup (possible more) have had falling outs with them in the past 2/3 years over build quality. On the other hand, while not perfect ADL have managed to really step up their game and improve the build quality over the recent years.

The E200MMC and Streetlite are very similar vehicles, but the build quality difference between them is astonishing. Passengers here are always complaining about the Streetlites whether it be their lack to pull away at a decent rate, body rattles, loud and harsh vibrations from the engine bay, heat off the engine, the claustrophobic interior design, lack of suspension and so on. On the other hand the E200MMCs have proven quite popular with passengers and are reliable vehicles. Lothian's 18 plate Geminis are bad too, i was on a number of them when around 9 weeks old and then again around a month later and i can only describe them as the "worst built buses i've ever been on". The reliability of the Streetlite is probably the worst factor, they break down literally all the time.

With Optare Solos i really find that it varies on the specification. Cummins/Voith examples are appalling, i generally like to call them "glorified Streetlites in fancy dress", where as the Cummins/Alisons examples are superb little buses. The Versa isn't too bad either. The main issues with Optares is that the backup isn't as good as that with ADL, the position of the A-Pillars cause a irritating blind spot and they're now somewhat outdated. The Solo SR turns 10 years old this year while the Versa is 12! I do worry for Optare as their sales are in massive decline, the Metrodecker has been a undeniable failure (awaits someone to say "Reading Buses have ordered some") while both the Solo and Versa are not achieving anywhere near what they did 5/10 years ago.

The simple reason ADL are winning is because their entire product (including aftercare etc) is better at an operators point of view.

Finally, i do agree with the general view that the original Gemini is one of the best built deckers around, the only "modern" deckers in my view which come close and/or match are some of the later low height ALX400s (particularly the GX06 & VU06 batches at Stagecoach), along with First's Enviro500s.

It could be said that Stagecoach have always favoured Alexander for bodywork. This was apparent in their orders for Olympians, Darts and Volvo B6 in the early 90s, and similarly with more recent purchases. However, it hasn't precluded them from placing orders from other manufacturers either. The Plaxton Premier Interurban was essentially a Stagecoach innovation - they recognised that there was still a market for a "dual-purpose" type vehicle that was no longer catered for. Didn't they also order a small number of similar vehicles from Wright's? I really don't see what the "ownership links" have to do with it.

A manufacturer will come up with a bespoke specification quite happily if they know that it will generate significant orders. Wright seemed to do well with bulk orders from First and companies like Lothian, but recent orders would suggest that those operators have drifted away.

I agree, even down to in the late 90s and early 00s their main vehicle types all came from Alexander. Their main orders around the time were for the ALX200 (Dart), ALX300 (MAN) and ALX400 (Trident). Then in 2001 when the Dennis/Alexander/Plaxton merge occurred to create Transbus the ALX200 was discontinued in favour of the Pointer and Stagecoach moved to ordering the Pointer. So the link has always been there.

ADL are clearly a leader when it comes to bespoke specification. Their full range reflects that, especially vehicles like the Panther LE along with the various versions of Enviro200 and Enviro500 around the globe.

 

[class387]

Unfortunately a quick look at the sales figures for Streetlite vs Optare Solo and Metrodecker vs Gemini 3 and StreetDeck suggests your views are not shared by the industry.

I know an operator who approached Optare for a set of vehicles and WrightBus and both gave quotes. The WrightBus price, including the projected costs of spares and maintenance and availability of parts and fuel was in double figures of percentage cheaper.

As for the Gemini 1, WrightBus replaced it because it was getting slaughtered in the marketplace as operators were simply not prepared to pay a premium for vehicles that were well built and guzzled more fuel as it left it at a significant cost disadvantage against their rivals.

You won't touch the Gemini 1 for build quality, but it's just not a viable product anymore.

Yes, but I was only commenting on how a lightweight vehicle could be built to an acceptable quality, which the Metrodecker is an example of.

I know that the Gemini 1 needed replacement to stay competitive, but surely some of its good features could be carried over to the Gemini 3. Also, while a lot of the problems with new Wright products lies in the design which is difficult to change, there are also many problems which can only be attributed to poor build quality.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Yes, but I was only commenting on how a lightweight vehicle could be built to an acceptable quality, which the Metrodecker is an example of.

If i'm not mistake the Metrodecker failed it's original tilt test, further to that it's a bit outdated compared to it's competitors imo.

 

[Mwanesh]

Unfortunately the ownership links between Stagecoach (the leading Bus Company) and ADL (the leading bus manufacturer) is one of the worst things to happen to the industry and has no doubt been a factor in the current situation as well as they can use each others position in the marketplace to help each other out when it comes to costs and getting the spec of vehicle that they want at a good price.

You then have a situation where if ADL for instance build a cheap and lightweight vehicle that you can be sure Stagecoach will be the first customers of, the other manufacturers have to play catch-up and in the meantime the other bus companies are faced with buying an ADL vehicle that has shareholders in common with it's biggest rival, or buying a vehicle from another manufacturer that means they can't compete on cost with Stagecoach.

You are wrong on that one .Brian Souter only came into ADL when it failed.He was not going to let his bus supplier just go like that.They have standardised on ADL products.Believe me its easy to deal with one parts supplier .

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'm not a fan of Wright Streelite - in fact if next Wednesday I had a choice between a Volvo B7RLE and a new Streetlite on First's 144 from Worcester to Birmingham, 13:30 service, then its the Volvo! Even if it was say an 05-plate with the only front sideway seat.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'm not sure if First Worcester have Streetlite's but just saying I much prefer the Volvo B7RLE !

Anyone seen the Arriva one on YouTube that has a 1-2 second wheel spin ?


I like the StreetDeck though.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

As far as I can tell ADL products squeek more than many of Wrightbuses latest, Ive sat as a passenger on the upperdeck of Lothians Gemini B5TL/B5LHs plenty of times yet I have experienced FiGs 15 plate 400 MMCs being far more “squeeky”, particularly upstairs.

Ive only ever sat on 1 integral streetlite and yes it did feel quite noisy and flimsy!

Ive driven 200 MMCs more than could sink a battleship but Id still prefer driving a D7E engined Eclipse anyday!

The absolute gripe with any of Wrightbus or ADLs integral products is there over use of Voith’s insanely ****ty DIWA.6 gearbox, I find the box easily becoming confused with it occasional “hunting” for gears that it does have, maybe this will change when voith finally releases there NXT 5-Speed version in 2020.

Im glad Volvo has made the Ecolife standard on there B5TL/B8RLE chassis in the UK.

400 MMCs are far superior with ZF Gearboxes, I tend to find that voiths, when it shifts to its direct 2nd gear it tends to leave the engine at a flat-spot whilst holding 1st gear far to long on hills.

 

[VioletEclipse]

As far as I can tell ADL products squeek more than many of Wrightbuses latest, Ive sat as a passenger on the upperdeck of Lothians Gemini B5TL/B5LHs plenty of times yet I have experienced FiGs 15 plate 400 MMCs being far more “squeeky”, particularly upstairs.

Ive only ever sat on 1 integral streetlite and yes it did feel quite noisy and flimsy!

Ive driven 200 MMCs more than could sink a battleship but Id still prefer driving a D7E engined Eclipse anyday!

The absolute gripe with any of Wrightbus or ADLs integral products is there over use of Voith’s insanely ****ty DIWA.6 gearbox, I find the box easily becoming confused with it occasional “hunting” for gears that it does have, maybe this will change when voith finally releases there NXT 5-Speed version in 2020.

Im glad Volvo has made the Ecolife standard on there B5TL/B8RLE chassis in the UK.

400 MMCs are far superior with ZF Gearboxes, I tend to find that voiths, when it shifts to its direct 2nd gear it tends to leave the engine at a flat-spot whilst holding 1st gear far to long on hills.

Lothian's Gemini 3 B5TLs are rattly and not built nearly as well as the Gemini 1 B7TLs, but I agree, the Streetlites are so much worse.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm not sure if First Worcester have Streetlite's but just saying I much prefer the Volvo B7RLE !

Anyone seen the Arriva one on YouTube that has a 1-2 second wheel spin ?


I like the StreetDeck though.

First Worcester does have Streetlites. I gather the Mercedes engine in the Streetdecks has caused a few problems, hopefully now getting sorted.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Might part of the problem be Wright's rather rapid move into building chassis and integrals, rather than just bodies?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Might part of the problem be Wright's rather rapid move into building chassis and integrals, rather than just bodies?

Wright don't build the chassis as such. They come from Daimler (Streetdeck) and VDL (Streetlite), the vehicles are just sold as "integrals".

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Welcome to the future everyone!

 

[GusB]

Might part of the problem be Wright's rather rapid move into building chassis and integrals, rather than just bodies?

They've been building integrals for some years, though. Many "chassis" aren't completely self-supporting and require the bodywork for the overall strength of the vehicle. I'm thinking of Scania in particular who, correct me if I'm wrong, supplied front and read modules (thereby allowing different vehicle lengths), rather than complete chassis.

 

[padbus]

Wright don't build the chassis as such. They come from Daimler (Streetdeck) and VDL (Streetlite), the vehicles are just sold as "integrals".

Could I refer you to the Wright Group website and, in particular to its EN-Drive subsidiary? http://www.wrightsgroup.com/Divisions/EN-Drive. There it says:

EN-Drive is the newly established chassis design and manufacturing arm of Wrights Group, the world-renowned bus producers. EN-Drive’s state-of-the-art facility is located on the outskirts of Antrim within the Newpark Industrial Estate.

At EN-Drive chassis are assembled for todays “integral” Wrightbus product line up - the StreetLite single deck product range, the StreetDeck double deck product range and the New Routemaster. EN-Drive have capacity to also build for other vehicle manufacturers on a contract basis. The long term ambition for EN-Drive is to become the chassis provider of choice to both internal and external customers worldwide.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Could I refer you to the Wright Group website and, in particular to its EN-Drive subsidiary? http://www.wrightsgroup.com/Divisions/EN-Drive. There it says:

Thanks for that, i wasn't aware they had now started building the chassis themselves.

 

[LiviCrazy]

Genuine question here as my knowledge is better than some but worse than others.

Is there different standards of Streetlites? I’ve read so many people talking of their lack of power and feeling flimsy, but the ones we’ve got on First West Lothian don’t feel like that. Those things absolutely fly when they are on the A71/A8 (usually sitting in the outside lane of the latter overtaking everyone else), the only thing that seems to let them down is the rattly fire escape door.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Genuine question here as my knowledge is better than some but worse than others.

Is there different standards of Streetlites? I’ve read so many people talking of their lack of power and feeling flimsy, but the ones we’ve got on First West Lothian don’t feel like that. Those things absolutely fly when they are on the A71/A8 (usually sitting in the outside lane of the latter overtaking everyone else), the only thing that seems to let them down is the rattly fire escape door.

Until recently two engines were offered. Cummins ISBe (4.5L) and the Daimler OM934. For Euro 6 the Cummins option was dropped. The Scotland East examples are mostly Daimler powered where as most Streetlites in general are Cummins powered.

 

[LiviCrazy]

Until recently two engines were offered. Cummins ISBe (4.5L) and the Daimler OM934. For Euro 6 the Cummins option was dropped. The Scotland East examples are mostly Daimler powered where as most Streetlites in general are Cummins powered.

Thank you. I’ve only ever travelled on them locally, so never understood the complaints. Our ones have seemed pretty good whenever I’ve travelled on them.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Thank you. I’ve only ever travelled on them locally, so never understood the complaints. Our ones have seemed pretty good whenever I’ve travelled on them.

They do seem to vary in quality, even within batches. My knowledge on how the Daimler examples preform is very limited, but our Cummins examples are utter rancid and constantly being complained about by drivers and passengers. Control have clearly noticed this as their use on Sundays has recently declined. Yesterday for example there was more B10BLEs in service than Streetlites! 3/4 years ago this would have been unheard of.

It is quite fun sitting on the back of one on the route 23 here endlessly wondering if it will make it up the hills! They're just so pathetically slow and rancid to sit.