Why are Virgin trains so precious about their wifi?

[AlterEgo]

From my observations, quite a lot.

It’s not an 11-car train with up to 500-600 people on it accessing a single signal, is my point.

 

[gsnedders]

I had a good conversation with one of the tech guys at the wifi suppliers a few months ago. The biggest issues especially on the WCML is the lack of masts (large chunks of mostly sparsley populated areas) and the mast to mast handovers. The Operators don't want a mast being hammered by 200+ users who are only using it for a matter of Seconds (as the trains is travelling at high speed) , something technical called a handshake I think...i.e. by the time you are trying to connect to one mast, you're already out of its range and it's time to connect to another.

I know the new technology on the Pendos will be supported by EE to try and resolve this.

Ironically, the best part when I was on a couple of weeks ago was the section through the Scottish Borders. There, at least, the M74 mostly parallels the WCML, and it remained decent in both directions until around Preston (where the M6 stops paralleling it). Some of that is presumably the operators caring about the larger market of the motorway and train line combined (especially given the WCML sees only a few trains per hour that far north), and provisioning accordingly.

The thing is the masts are going to get hammered by the phones anyway moving, so I don't see how added effectively one more UMTS/LTE connection hurts. It could actually make the cells much more efficient (less metadata/handover/retransmits data on one centralised high strength antenna to the train) instead of hundreds of phones switching between masts.

I don't think that is the problem really. I think the problem is the wifi equipment/lte equipment is rubbish they've installed. If I'm on a TPE 350 I get full 4G nearly the whole length of the northern route between manchester and glasgow/edinburgh on my phone. On a class 390 the signal is pretty dire (though a lot better now we have LTE800). And of course the wifi is rubbish.

Basically, if my consumer smartphone can get solid high performance 4G on a TPE train I really can't see why it is impossible for Virgin to add equipment to the 390s to do it.

I wonder if some of this is down to choice of operators? In addition, I believe the 390 system is only HSPA+ and not LTE. As for the signal on your phone, that's just because the 390s work pretty well as Faraday Cages; there's no reason why the on-board wifi needs to be limited by that (as you could have externally mounted antennas, and much larger than your phone has, for the on-train wifi).

 

[jon0844]

If the system is 3G on the 390s then that's the problem. 3G has many flaws and when at capacity, cell breathing can kill you off entirely. A lot of spectrum has been refarmed to 4G, and some networks never even rolled out a good 3G network in the first place.

The newer LTE systems from Icomera are accompanied by better access points (dual band) and on a GN 387 or 700, the service is generally very, very good. And in some places helped by the networks (EE's 800MHz roll out in rural areas, Vodafone enhancing 4G on rail lines, cuttings, tunnels and stations etc). 5G will build on this too.

I got this today regarding Heathrow;

PLANES, TRAINS AND SMART MOBILES

VODAFONE HAS HEATHROW AND HEATHROW EXPRESS COVERED

Millions of passengers can now benefit from fast 4G and reliable voice coverage

Vodafone customers worldwide, who make up a large number of Heathrow’s 78 million passengers every year and the six million annual users of Heathrow Express, will be able to access 4G inside all terminals, trains and tunnels, as Vodafone makes major network improvements across the airport.

The new Vodafone system will give customers high quality voice connections and faster mobile data speeds throughout the airport’s terminals, even on days when more than a quarter of a million people could be passing through. Travellers will be able to quickly reply to emails, download business presentations or update their social media status, giving them more time to relax and ensuring they never miss important emails or calls.

The airport will have the latest technology across the 1,227-hectare site, with engineers working through the night to avoid any disruption to passengers. Meanwhile, 4G coverage is currently being extended along the eight kilometres of tunnels connecting the airport’s terminals. Travellers on Heathrow Express trains can also enjoy uninterrupted voice and data on any of the 150 services which run every day to and from London Paddington station.

Vodafone UK’s Chief Technology Officer Scott Petty, said: “Heathrow is an extremely important hub for our millions of customers worldwide, whether they are travelling on holiday or on business. This major improvement is part of our multi-billion investment programme to build our strongest UK network. It will give customers great coverage from the moment they step on or off their flight, to traveling on the Heathrow Express.”

John Arbuckle, Head of Property at Heathrow, added: “This update, in partnership with Vodafone, is another step towards ensuring a seamless experience for passengers, as well as secure connectivity for business partners across the airport.”

Fraser Brown, Heathrow Express Director, explained: “Heathrow Express may be the fastest way to reach Heathrow from central London but customers still want to use this 15 minutes to call colleagues, family or friends on the go. These upgrades mean passengers can stay connected with uninterrupted coverage on board our services through the tunnels and into Heathrow.”

The train systems also use multiple SIMs for better coverage and spreading the load, and that's also why services have to be restricted for things like streaming. Hundreds of people using Netflix couldn't work, but web browsing and social media should be okay as a lot of the time you're reading/typing etc and it balances out.

 

[cjmillsnun]

But the WiFi onboard uses the same damn 4G. It's ridiculous.

No, I believe it uses 3G, and that is the problem.

 

[Mainliner]

Has anybody on the forum had any recent experience with VTEC's Wi-Fi service?

I do a Newcastle-London return trip each week, and use the Wifi on my phone (not for streaming) with few problems. Occasionally (perhaps once or twice a year) the router in the particular coach is out of order, but that's about it.

I also use a laptop with a 4G dongle, and there aren't many black spots.

 

[mrmartin]

They still use 3G even though they changed all the onboard equipment when they rolled out 'Beam'? I really can't believe how poor VTWC is at the most basic onboard internet connectivity.

3G is getting slower and slower as more and more of it is shut off and switched with 4G.

 

[duffield]

3G is getting slower and slower as more and more of it is shut off and switched with 4G.

Best guess seems to be 3G in the UK will go away around 2020, so they'll be forced to upgrade soonish!

 

[gsnedders]

They still use 3G even though they changed all the onboard equipment when they rolled out 'Beam'? I really can't believe how poor VTWC is at the most basic onboard internet connectivity.

I expect this is partly down to their contracts with the operator which will probably be for a 3G connection of certain specifications. It's also entirely plausible they didn't replace modems or antenna, but just the APs and router.

 

[jon0844]

I expect this is partly down to their contracts with the operator which will probably be for a 3G connection of certain specifications. It's also entirely plausible they didn't replace modems or antenna, but just the APs and router.

I can't see why they'd upgrade the Wi-Fi equipment on the train without upgrading the rest, to add 4G. Are we sure it's definitely only 3G?

Then again, I don't know if they've upgraded the Wi-Fi. Can people connect on 5GHz?

 

[gsnedders]

I can't see why they'd upgrade the Wi-Fi equipment on the train without upgrading the rest, to add 4G. Are we sure it's definitely only 3G?

Then again, I don't know if they've upgraded the Wi-Fi. Can people connect on 5GHz?

The reason to upgrade the Wi-Fi equipment would surely be to increase capacity on the local network for the sake of BEAM, which AIUI is a purely local system.

 

[Skie]

The reason to upgrade the Wi-Fi equipment would surely be to increase capacity on the local network for the sake of BEAM, which AIUI is a purely local system.

Yep. Beam just needs a decent set of access points and a content server to dish out the videos, nothing to do with the tatty 3G dongle flapping about on the roof

 

[SaveECRewards]

You'll need to take that up with Virgin Trains, Llanigraham. I'm a VTEC'er.

Welcome to the forums ^BG. I'm curious, are you here in a personal context or are VTEC asking people from the social media team to engage with this forum? Whatever way it's good news and I hope you stick around. BTW if you want to identify as VTEC (to save on VTWC questions) I'd use the logo the Travel Buddy app uses as your avatar (the logo is the only good thing about the app )

 

[^BG]

Areet ECRewards. I'm here in a personal context, but happy to answer any questions people have about VTEC (that I may know the answer to) so I've made it clear that I'm ^BG. Cheers for the avatar!

 

[westv]

I use a Kindle Fire. When I'm using VTEC or Hull Trains one of the websites I look at just appears as a blank screen. This doesn't happen anywhere else. There's no video or dodgy content involved - it's just a weather forum.
Anybody else have similar problems?

 

[westv]

Just me then.

 

[celdor]

Virgin Red made me see RED!!
Joined up a month ago did a few quizes profile seemed fine. Got on internet going to Euston no problem for free which was great as I wanted to book seats on a plane on BA website.

Yesterday having just got back from Australia our train Euston to Glasgow was late arriving at Euston so was leaving an hour late. On board decided to log on to Vred again to advise family
of the delay and organise a pickup - No credit on my emergency use PAYG phone.
Just as I retrieved the phone from my luggage an announcement was made by the Guard?
Ticket checker. This was along the line of "some passengers have been asking me about the wifi
and Beam. Just for information??? I have no idea what beam is or how it works or if it or the wifi is working or not. I suggest you just look out the windows to pass the time" !!!!!!

Despite this weird announcemI decided to give the Red a go and it appeared to connect straight away BUT only to the onboard system - no connection to the Internet!!
Checked wifi was on and airplane mode was off tried on a tablet and the same.
As the program was on the phone when I tried on the tablet I was not recognised to it went into
you will have to register to use it. Used the same detail as on the phone and it said my email address was not a valid one??? I have several and tried those including Gmail but still invalid.
Went back to the phone and again let me into "Red" but maybe that was just from the phone memory? as it seemed stuck on my original month old page. Tried to look at my profile
and it said there was a program error and I should refresh it?? and if that didnt work contact
help??? Not sure how I could accomplish either of these without an internet connection.

Having seen on this thread that it only works with Internet purchased tickets? I am wondering how it knows? Until I read it on here I had assumed that anyone actually on a Virgin Train would be a Virgin customer and would get free wifi if registered on "Red"
On this occasion I had bought on RedSpottedHanky in order to get 3x tesco
voucher value. Does that mean I was not a Virgin Customer? Tickets were collected from a station machine so I had an internet booking number - which has been accepted in my
delay compensation claim.

I am going to complain to "Red" but maybe this is just par for the course and I was just lucky
when it worked first time round, so seeking some comment on here first.

 

[A Challenge]

VTEC (now LNER) was online only, VTWC is via the Virgin Red app.