Why are Virgin trains so precious about their wifi?

[mrmartin]

I think this is purely down to the number of people using it.

Let's say all 4G operators at a certain time at a certain place give 1Mbps.

So you use your phone and it gets 1Mbps.

If you connect to the WiFi, it might have, four SIM cards from different operators? Which gives you 4Mbps.

However 8 people are using the WiFi... so that only gives you 0.5Mbps each...

Very simplistic but I think this is why all onboard WiFi I have used is expensive (or for First Class only) i.e. VT, XC; unreliable i.e. LM; or heavily throttled i.e. Chiltern/ATW (IIRC).

Err right but a) 4G is vastly faster than 1meg, and b) that assumes all 8 customers are using it at once, which isn't the case.

I have been on near empty VTWC trains to Glasgow (I mean one or two people.per carriage in Standard class, didn't check first but getting off the train looked like there were maybe 5 total in there). Still the WiFi was incredibly slow while 4G on my phone was pumping out 100meg+ in places.

Something is seriously broken with it. I refuse to believe that you cannot provided decent WiFi on trains now with all operators offering LTE on 800MHz even in rural areas. If you aggregate that you could offer a good service, end of. The bandwidth is there.

If it's streaming that's the problem then limit it down to a very slow speed or block it entirely.

My guess is that train operators don't want to pay the bandwidth bill and instead rent a small amount of capacity (my guess on empty trains is around 5mbit) instead which as you point out isn't enough. Then moan it is not possible to offer faster service, when clearly it is.

 

[jon0844]

While each network will offer wholesale rates, there is a higher cost for providing mobile data than if you were using Wi-Fi in a fixed location.

The BBC have multi terabyte plans for sending back broadcast video, but I wonder how much Virgin pays - and if the rates vary per network. EE provides the best coverage, closely followed by Vodafone and Three, while O2 has very limited capacity and personally speaking I wouldn't imagine working well when sharing out amongst users.

EE and Vodafone also use more modern systems on 4G, like 4x4 and 8x8 MIMO and better encoding. These can make big differences for congested areas and also mean getting more throughout on a weaker signal. Having a more modern handset helps too.

But I'm up in the lake district and went to Settle yesterday and there are lots of black spots that means even a train with antennas on the roof can't perform miracles.

 

[HowardGWR]

Interesting stories. What I cannot understand is that my journeys on SWT (AXM -CLJ, a hilly trajectory) are a WIFI joy. I can read my online news, I can read online rail project reports. Admittedly I don't stream much. Whatever SWT are doing is what they all should be doing, ISTM.

 

[och aye]

Has anybody on the forum had any recent experience with VTEC's Wi-Fi service?

 

[xotGD]

Has anybody on the forum had any recent experience with VTEC's Wi-Fi service?

I couldn't even get the login screen using Chrome on Wednesday and had to switch to Explorer. Never had that problem before.

 

[rmt4ever]

It would be good to see the WiFi again restricted to free access only for first passengers

 

[D841 Roebuck]

Can't comment on Virgin's wifi. However, I can say that TPE's is excellent, and worked efficiently all the way from Manchester to Glasgow and return.

The trains are comfortable, the staff on board are pleasant and helpful. But they appear to concentrate on providing a decent basic service rather than being image-led all-fur-coat and no knickers merchants.

 

[Llanigraham]

It would be good to see the WiFi again restricted to free access only for first passengers

Why only First?
I can sit on my local train from Machynlleth to Birmingham and have internet access all the way, then I get onto a VTWC to Euston and have to pay for it.
If ATW can do it for nothing why can't Virgin?

 

[Gflynorw]

I had a good conversation with one of the tech guys at the wifi suppliers a few months ago. The biggest issues especially on the WCML is the lack of masts (large chunks of mostly sparsley populated areas) and the mast to mast handovers. The Operators don't want a mast being hammered by 200+ users who are only using it for a matter of Seconds (as the trains is travelling at high speed) , something technical called a handshake I think...i.e. by the time you are trying to connect to one mast, you're already out of its range and it's time to connect to another.

I know the new technology on the Pendos will be supported by EE to try and resolve this.

 

[^BG]

We do have on-going work to improve the Wi-Fi onboard the current fleet (as some sets are remaining when the Azuma comes in) however the Wi-Fi on the new Azuma is said to be much, much better than the current offering.

 

[mrmartin]

I had a good conversation with one of the tech guys at the wifi suppliers a few months ago. The biggest issues especially on the WCML is the lack of masts (large chunks of mostly sparsley populated areas) and the mast to mast handovers. The Operators don't want a mast being hammered by 200+ users who are only using it for a matter of Seconds (as the trains is travelling at high speed) , something technical called a handshake I think...i.e. by the time you are trying to connect to one mast, you're already out of its range and it's time to connect to another.

I know the new technology on the Pendos will be supported by EE to try and resolve this.

The thing is the masts are going to get hammered by the phones anyway moving, so I don't see how added effectively one more UMTS/LTE connection hurts. It could actually make the cells much more efficient (less metadata/handover/retransmits data on one centralised high strength antenna to the train) instead of hundreds of phones switching between masts.

I don't think that is the problem really. I think the problem is the wifi equipment/lte equipment is rubbish they've installed. If I'm on a TPE 350 I get full 4G nearly the whole length of the northern route between manchester and glasgow/edinburgh on my phone. On a class 390 the signal is pretty dire (though a lot better now we have LTE800). And of course the wifi is rubbish.

Basically, if my consumer smartphone can get solid high performance 4G on a TPE train I really can't see why it is impossible for Virgin to add equipment to the 390s to do it.

 

[D365]

We do have on-going work to improve the Wi-Fi onboard the current fleet (as some sets are remaining when the Azuma comes in).

Apologies for going off-topic but which sets are these? There probably will have been a discussion about this recently but I can't recall where.

 

[westv]

Apologies for going off-topic but which sets are these? There probably will have been a discussion about this recently but I can't recall where.

Let me take a guess. The EMT hand me downs?

 

[Domh245]

Apologies for going off-topic but which sets are these? There probably will have been a discussion about this recently but I can't recall where.

The latest suggestion I've seen is that it'll be some of the HSTs that are kept, either to avoid pushing the power supplies at the northern end of the route to their limits, or because the IEP units don't have enough grunt to keep to time on services to Inverness when they ran a unit up that way.

 

[island]

They need to pay anything up to (I believe) 9% commission on sales by other TOCs/agents so if they can do something simple that will convince passengers to buy on their site instead, they will.

 

[Llanigraham]

We do have on-going work to improve the Wi-Fi onboard the current fleet (as some sets are remaining when the Azuma comes in) however the Wi-Fi on the new Azuma is said to be much, much better than the current offering.

Wonderful, but why can I get free internet when I travel along the (remote) Cambrian and into Birmingham on ATW, and then have to pay when I get on your train to Euston?

 

[^BG]

Wonderful, but why can I get free internet when I travel along the (remote) Cambrian and into Birmingham on ATW, and then have to pay when I get on your train to Euston?

You'll need to take that up with Virgin Trains, Llanigraham. I'm a VTEC'er.

 

[xotGD]

We do have on-going work to improve the Wi-Fi onboard the current fleet (as some sets are remaining when the Azuma comes in) however the Wi-Fi on the new Azuma is said to be much, much better than the current offering.

Does 'much, much better' = free for everyone?

 

[Silver Cobra]

Wonderful, but why can I get free internet when I travel along the (remote) Cambrian and into Birmingham on ATW, and then have to pay when I get on your train to Euston?

VTWC are planning to offer free wi-fi to all passengers on board their Pendolino services by January 2019, according to this article on their website.

Virgin Trains customers on the West Coast will see a significant improvement in on-board WiFi later this year. All 56 Pendolino trains will undergo a refit which will vastly improve the on-board equipment, and allow free WiFi to be extended to all Pendolino customers.

The £7.5m investment is part of a new deal agreed with the Government, which will see Virgin Trains continue to run the West Coast franchise through to at least 31st March 2019, with the option for up to a further one-year extension at the Department for Transport’s discretion. The existing franchise expires on 31st March 2018, and the new contract will bridge the gap between the existing franchise and the new West Coast Partnership, due to start on 1st April 2019.

Installation of the WiFi upgrade is planned to begin on the Pendolino fleet from May 2018, with the work expected to be completed by January 2019, when free WiFi will be extended to all Pendolino customers. More than 85% of our customers travel on Pendolinos. In addition, the new technology is ‘future-proofed’ so it will work with 5G mobile phone networks as they come on stream and offer further speed improvements. The upgrade will also unlock the ability to offer more technology-led improvements in the future, all of which will increase customer satisfaction.

 

[jon0844]

Vodafone has improved its coverage to serve trains from Victoria to Brighton with contiguous 4G to Gatwick. EE is also installing many new sites (partly due to its ESN contract, many sites that if part funded by the Government will be usable by others).

Trains use multiple data connections but it's still a lot less users than everyone using their own phones also trying to connect. The router is one or two data connections to the network, shared locally. If the equipment supports the latest technology with 4x4 MIMO, carrier aggregation and 256QAM encoding then it will help reduce the load on the site compared to lots of users with phones with crappy modems (even the iPhone is poor in comparison to what's available on many phones today, party due to using Intel over Qualcomm).

 

[mrmartin]

VTWC are planning to offer free wi-fi to all passengers on board their Pendolino services by January 2019, according to this article on their website.

This was promised in 2015, then 2017 and now 2019. I did a FoI to the DfT and they clearly have no clue what is going on, saying it was delivered but not free because of 'operational reasons'. I asked VT what these were and they said they were waiting for trackside mast upgrades. I asked NR and they have no plans to install masts on the trackside. So all a bit confusing really...

 

[WatcherZero]

NR had a program to provide spare bandwidth on their train communication (GSM-R) for onboard Wi-fi and other digital customer services (airline style) and install additional masts, thats hasnt happened with the squeeze on resouces so Virgin cant offer that facility.

TPE and Azuma I believe have media servers where information accessed by other passengers is cached to increase performance, e.g if you and two other passengers are reading BBC news its only downloaded once.

 

[jon0844]

NR had a program to provide spare bandwidth on their train communication (GSM-R) for onboard Wi-fi and other digital customer services (airline style) and install additional masts, thats hasnt happened with the squeeze on resouces so Virgin cant offer that facility.

GSM-R is extremely unsecure and it won't be long until someone hacks it and sends signals to stop trains or cause other mischief. I think the industry is genuinely concerned about this, so opening anything up will almost certainly not happen.

I won't detail anything more here.

 

[jon0844]

NR had a program to provide spare bandwidth on their train communication (GSM-R) for onboard Wi-fi and other digital customer services (airline style) and install additional masts, thats hasnt happened with the squeeze on resouces so Virgin cant offer that facility.

TPE and Azuma I believe have media servers where information accessed by other passengers is cached to increase performance, e.g if you and two other passengers are reading BBC news its only downloaded once.

There's the local storage of TV shows and movies too, although I have no idea how popular that is.

Now Vodafone has upgraded its 4G service at most or all Network Rail stations, you're better off downloading content for offline viewing. I can get 150Mbps on Vodafone at King's Cross now, so it doesn't take long to download a 500MB-1GB movie even if you leave it until the last minute.

 

[WatcherZero]

GSM-R is extremely unsecure and it won't be long until someone hacks it and sends signals to stop trains or cause other mischief. I think the industry is genuinely concerned about this, so opening anything up will almost certainly not happen.

I won't detail anything more here.

Not really opening up the radio protocol if its accessed through onboard Wi-Fi routers.

 

[mrmartin]

NR had a program to provide spare bandwidth on their train communication (GSM-R) for onboard Wi-fi and other digital customer services (airline style) and install additional masts, thats hasnt happened with the squeeze on resouces so Virgin cant offer that facility.

TPE and Azuma I believe have media servers where information accessed by other passengers is cached to increase performance, e.g if you and two other passengers are reading BBC news its only downloaded once.

I very much doubt it's to do with GSM-R. More likely the fibre backhaul and masts that LTE could be deployed on. GSM-R data rates max out at 14kbit/sec... not exactly useful.

Also - proxy caching only could work for non-HTTPS sites, which are increasingly rare. So I doubt that is the reason. I think it is simply they have better kit than Virgin.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why only First?
I can sit on my local train from Machynlleth to Birmingham and have internet access all the way, then I get onto a VTWC to Euston and have to pay for it.
If ATW can do it for nothing why can't Virgin?

How many people are on that train all trying to access the same connection though?

 

[island]

There's the local storage of TV shows and movies too, although I have no idea how popular that is.

Now Vodafone has upgraded its 4G service at most or all Network Rail stations, you're better off downloading content for offline viewing. I can get 150Mbps on Vodafone at King's Cross now, so it doesn't take long to download a 500MB-1GB movie even if you leave it until the last minute.

That'll plough through your data allowance though. The only main network offering proper unlimited data these days is 3.

 

[Llanigraham]

How many people are on that train all trying to access the same connection though?

From my observations, quite a lot.

 

[jon0844]

That'll plough through your data allowance though. The only main network offering proper unlimited data these days is 3.

Yes, but I've got plenty of data. AYCE data on Three (£20/m), 50GB on Vodafone (£30/m but with free Spotify worth £10/m) and 35GB on EE.

Wi-Fi on trains will be restricted to block or throttle streaming anyway.