Why are the Class 700s so terrible?

[bengley]

That's as maybe, but
a) Due to power constraints imposed by the existing OLE, 12-car 319s could only go at 75mph north of St Pancras, so the "fast" part of the plan is in itself a misnomer.
b) BED-BTN services are the main ones due to be using 12-cars, so using the above plan with 8-car 319s wouldn't achieve the desired result for hoovering up the punters at either end.
c) If you believe that the 700s have bad seats for a relatively fast journey, you should perhaps try taking a Pacer round the Cumbrian Coast. 700s might seem like luxury then!
d) if you want "packed in", try getting a peak-time XC service from Notts to Cardiff (via B'ham New St); 2 coaches for 2 hours of hell.

Phew, rant over.

The 75mph restriction for 12 car 319s was only if there were any Stone Faiveley pantographs in the formation. Brecknell Willis could do 100mph.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The 75mph restriction for 12 car 319s was only if there were any Stone Faiveley pantographs in the formation. Brecknell Willis could do 100mph.

What's the difference(s) between the two types of pantograph?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What's the difference(s) between the two types of pantograph?

My limited knowledge tells me that a Brecknell Willis pantograph is designed for high speed. I'm sure someone will come up with a better explanation

 

[Domh245]

What's the difference(s) between the two types of pantograph?

My limited knowledge tells me that a Brecknell Willis pantograph is designed for high speed. I'm sure someone will come up with a better explanation

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that the Brecknell Willis pantograph has better uplift than the Stone Faiveley (particularly on the variants fitted with aerofoils - although I don't think that this is the case with the 319s) meaning that it will have better contact with the overhead line in situations where they may be moving more than usual, such as at higher speeds, or when there are several pantographs in contact.

 

[jon0844]

No I don't know what I'm talking about hence 'I still don't get this'. Rather than having 2 different operators providing fast and slow services they should combine the two like the old First Capital Connect.
And Virgin Trains East Coast is designed for that; express services. They're not that much more expensive, I've used them and it's better than ricketing along on a packed 313 at peak time.

The service frequency to Stevenage or Peterborough on Virgin is abysmal compared to the GN services. Yes Virgin is faster when you're on a train that calls but Virgin doesn't want people using its services to Scotland to get off 20 or 40 minutes up the line, taking up seats when the train is boarding at King's Cross. And coming back to London, Virgin can do drop off only on late trains and don't want full trains on a Sunday night trying to pack on people from PBO or SVG to go one stop.

And 313s rarely ventured that far so not sure of the relevance there. Today it would be a 365 or 387 and both are more comfortable. A 387 when it's not rush hour is actually a very nice way to travel.

 

[Hadders]

No I don't know what I'm talking about hence 'I still don't get this'. Rather than having 2 different operators providing fast and slow services they should combine the two like the old First Capital Connect.
And Virgin Trains East Coast is designed for that; express services. They're not that much more expensive, I've used them and it's better than ricketing along on a packed 313 at peak time.

A Peterborough-London Terminals Annual Season Ticket is £7,484 Any Permitted and £6,316 Great Northern Only. I'd say that travel on Virgin is significantly more expensive rather than 'not much more expensive'.

Two train companies operate between Peterborough and London:

Virgin Trains East Coast provide express service that are either non-stop or just one stop (at Stevenage)
Govia Thameslink Railway operate the remaining services under their Great Northern Brand. From 2018 their faster limited stop services (that mainly operate in the peak) will use the Great Northern brand with semi-fast services using the Thameslink brand.

Virgin don't serve Stevenage at all in the morning peak and there are only 4 trains between 1600 and 1900.

Class 313 trains don't operate to Peterborough.

 

[Kite159]

No I don't know what I'm talking about hence 'I still don't get this'. Rather than having 2 different operators providing fast and slow services they should combine the two like the old First Capital Connect.
And Virgin Trains East Coast is designed for that; express services. They're not that much more expensive, I've used them and it's better than ricketing along on a packed 313 at peak time.

The 313s will still be operating out of Moorgate on the inner suburban services (Welywn Garden & Hertford North), they will get replaced by 717s next year.

As for the ECML itself, they are the same operator, just some services will be branded Great Northern for those services terminating at Kings Cross and some will be branded Thameslink for those who will continue south via the core. (Like how Gatwick services are from Victoria with the express services branded "Gatwick Express" and the semi-fast services are branded as 'Southern')

----

Back on topic, the 700s are better than the 319s at being people movers, not to mention they are slightly faster off the mark than the slower 319s. Similar to the experience reported on the 345 thread, you might not be able to get a seat but you will be able to board (and I've seen some of those 700s when they are quite cosy following a break in service)

 

[Bald Rick]

Sometimes you say the strangest of things that I just can't reconcile. Your usually one of the most level headed and edumacated of posters :/

I have been catching time back through the core for years. Southbound at St Pancras you typically get 1/2 minutes dwell and you are generally early there but you catch time back naturally because you have a booked dwell. This hasn't changed between stock and very much existed with 319's. I wouldn't even put it down to the stock either because the dwell time is a booked one. Farringdon has always been a bit of a mixed bag. You used to get additional time given for the pant changeover so your dwell was always longer, some schedules still have this booked. Again, this existed under 319's also and again, a booked dwell time. City you get forever. Again, its been in place there for yoinks. 1/2 minutes dwell for change of Drivers at Blackfriars. You tend to leave Blackfriars on time. Northbound is always a a bit tighter but you still benefit from the timetable feeding minutes back. Farringdon is where I normally see the biggest benefit because you get an extended dwell. I've always relaxed a little through the core as getting +5 back was almost guaranteed.

I do think its a little rose tinted to see dwell time benefits when the timetable hasn't changed and the dwells are more based on the Drivers schedule than any benefit from the stock. Station dwells haven't changed so it is a little disingenuous to say its because of the stock. The time I close the doors and pull away is determined by my schedule. For a real comparison you need to consider the 30 second dwells where your booked in and out in the same minute. The wider doors and the ability to walk through will be a benefit and an improvement. Same with the doors opening it should shave the much needed few seconds from the dwell time.

Performance wise I'm leaning towards the 700's. Not so much acceleration and especially not on DC. What I can see is a marked power improvement. A 319 barely got to 90 let alone 100 but a 700 keeps its acceleration and doesn't drop its performance at higher speeds. I almost never hit the brakes into Elstree tunnel but now I'm watching my speed well into the curve. Radlet southbound, into Cray on the up fast, and for once I actually have a unit that can hit the 30 into Blackfriars. Its just got some serious umphh where it counts. North of the river these units really shine. In relation to the core. The speed is so low that the performance improvement is barely noticeable. 0-60 I'm gonna call even because where I used to mark a units performance there is a whisker between them. 60-100 I'd give it to 700's every time. Anywhere where you need a good few horses under the desk I'd also give to 700's. 319's on a gradient were a bit meh.

Fair challenge. My mum told me not to exaggerate over a million times

Nevertheless, my experience is based on southbound am peak to the core, and northbound pm peak from the core. There are, or rather were, a number of early high peak trains which were almost guaranteed to be a few minutes late arriving at the core in 319 days due to dwells on the way south. As examples, for years I used turn up for the 0744 fast from St Albans at 0746 and rarely miss it. The 0744 semi was routinely 3 down by West Hampstead. The 0726/28 and 0738 would usually be a couple late into the core, and not make it back. This was because the trains were so full, and the doors / vestibules so narrow, people would take a long time to squeeze on / off.

Going north, the 1722 and 1752 off Blackfriars were well known for getting a poor run up from Gatwick (still are), and would rarely make it up going north under clear signals. Particularly with the 377s, with their 1 minute + voltage changeover. Nowadays they will easily pull a couple of minutes back.

Off peak, of course, is not a problem with any stock, and getting 3-5 minties back is routine.

Having watched the behaviour of punters at close quarters, and having been out with the stopwatch timing dwells (from wheels stop to the time when doors could be safely closed), my estimate is that dwells on peak services are between 15-30 seconds shorter with the 700s than 319s / 377s at most busy stations, and nearly a minute better at St Pancras. Perhaps the most noticeable thing is that since the 700s came in, I have never seen or heard any passenger bang on the windows and ask those on board to 'move down the train so we can all get on'. I would see this 3-4 times a week on the 319s / 377s.

As we have both said, the full benefit is not seen yet as the timetable hasn't changed. But in my experience, late running trains are more likely to make back time. Indeed one evening last week I caught an on-time northbound train from West Hampstead that was 8L at Blackfriars.

 

[F Great Eastern]

From a semi-regular Thameslink user for me the 700s are not perfect but a MASSIVE improvement on the 319s.

I'm 6ft2 and agree some of the seats are a little tight they have far better back support but during the rush the walk through design, layout and the quietness of them makes them a much nicer place to be than all of the old BR stock that they replaced.

Now I can go through the core at it's worth without arms and legs digging into me, people taking ages to get out of the doors and sometimes can even get a see a little more often even though it's not common.

 

[ComUtoR]

Having watched the behaviour of punters at close quarters, and having been out with the stopwatch timing dwells (from wheels stop to the time when doors could be safely closed)

Then perhaps we are talking cross purposes. When I think of dwell times, I look to my schedule. What I'm not looking at is when its safe to close the doors or how long its taken passengers to get on. I do people watch but in no way the extent that I'm timing it. As I'm not moving till T-30, Passengers getting on and off isn't a consideration for me. I'm checking the departure time. If your looking at the potential dwell time being cut short because loading and unloading is quicker then I'll bow to your far greater knowledge. I don't check for that whatsoever. As has been discussed, the wider doors and fewer seats means you can shuffle people on and off much quicker. I'll agree that all day long. 700 > 319 there for sure.

I have never seen or heard any passenger bang on the windows and ask those on board to 'move down the train so we can all get on'. I would see this 3-4 times a week on the 319s / 377s.

Again, this is interesting. I've certainly still made announcements to get people to move down when we still get overcrowding (same as I brought up previously) Through the core ? Dunno. Not that I can remember for either stock but because I used to wait for station staff to do the announcements I'm more concerned with CD/RA than making announcements. They clash with platform ones so its best left to them. I'll happily defer to you on that.

As we have both said, the full benefit is not seen yet as the timetable hasn't changed. But in my experience, late running trains are more likely to make back time. Indeed one evening last week I caught an on-time northbound train from West Hampstead that was 8L at Blackfriars.

North of 'The River' You can certainly eat through the SRTs. As mentioned, I'm using brake where previously I'm desperate for power. Through the core I'm just not seeing any difference because I've always made time back. But after that, whooosh to St Albans 700 >> 319.

On a side note to late running and with a small relation through the core. When your late the unit/service in front tends to pull away and where you can crawl through restrictive aspects, late running means your headway clears. Signals step to green and your good to hit linespeed more. Typically, I get checked down to a red in Belsize and I creep through. When I'm late, its green so I pull 75 through the tunnel and hit West Hampstead at speed rather than any acceleration from a crawl. Its a small phenomenon but not one passengers would immediately notice.

Another experience related note. Between you, I, and the general public, there are obvious differences. You see (as a passenger) peak time services. I tend to see a whole spectrum of services. As we are both 'Railwaymen' we see the more technical side of this all so we can see some both incremental gains and also see potential gains. Between you an I its interesting to see our different perspectives and how different departments see things so different. I see Driver side, you see the Ops side. Passengers are a whole different ball game. They are much much more subjective (as this thread proves). They are learning and I heard a couple yesterday say 'get on anywhere, you can walk through' They know which dors open and dont and even know the door will open even though the announcement said it wouldn't. Old habits potentially being changed for new ones but I think the 700's have slightly changed passenger behaviours. I'm of the mind that the biggest change still needs to come from them.

Always a pleasure, man with the cunning plan

 

[jon0844]

I would say that passengers play the biggest part in allowing the new timetable to have any chance of succeeding. If they're slowly learning now, that's all good!

 

[highspeed990]

The service frequency to Stevenage or Peterborough on Virgin is abysmal compared to the GN services. Yes Virgin is faster when you're on a train that calls but Virgin doesn't want people using its services to Scotland to get off 20 or 40 minutes up the line, taking up seats when the train is boarding at King's Cross. And coming back to London, Virgin can do drop off only on late trains and don't want full trains on a Sunday night trying to pack on people from PBO or SVG to go one stop.

And 313s rarely ventured that far so not sure of the relevance there. Today it would be a 365 or 387 and both are more comfortable. A 387 when it's not rush hour is actually a very nice way to travel.

There's plenty of Virgin Trains East Coast services at Peterborough, most of them don't travel as far as Scotland though. I've also never seen set down only but I guess these services don't show up on the timetable for southbound Peterborough passengers.

The frequency at Stevenage is 1p2h last time I checked, that's fine if you know the timetable, not to mention Hull Trains provide a few services to Stevenage and back a day during the peak.

As for Virgin Trains East Coast Not wanting short distance passengers occupying seats, the reservations are separate for each part of the journey so I don't think that's an issue.

I've also seen plenty of 313s at Peterborough.

 

[highspeed990]

A Peterborough-London Terminals Annual Season Ticket is £7,484 Any Permitted and £6,316 Great Northern Only. I'd say that travel on Virgin is significantly more expensive rather than 'not much more expensive'.

Two train companies operate between Peterborough and London:

Virgin Trains East Coast provide express service that are either non-stop or just one stop (at Stevenage)
Govia Thameslink Railway operate the remaining services under their Great Northern Brand. From 2018 their faster limited stop services (that mainly operate in the peak) will use the Great Northern brand with semi-fast services using the Thameslink brand.

Virgin don't serve Stevenage at all in the morning peak and there are only 4 trains between 1600 and 1900.

Class 313 trains don't operate to Peterborough.

It isn't that much more expensive, what would that be as a percentage? If they sold 3 year tickets the difference would be greater but the percentage difference would remain the same. It's like 'well if you save a pound every day..' And class 313s do operate to Peterborough sometimes.

 

[highspeed990]

The 313s will still be operating out of Moorgate on the inner suburban services (Welywn Garden & Hertford North), they will get replaced by 717s next year.

As for the ECML itself, they are the same operator, just some services will be branded Great Northern for those services terminating at Kings Cross and some will be branded Thameslink for those who will continue south via the core. (Like how Gatwick services are from Victoria with the express services branded "Gatwick Express" and the semi-fast services are branded as 'Southern')

----

Back on topic, the 700s are better than the 319s at being people movers, not to mention they are slightly faster off the mark than the slower 319s. Similar to the experience reported on the 345 thread, you might not be able to get a seat but you will be able to board (and I've seen some of those 700s when they are quite cosy following a break in service)

I agree with this post. But different brands are different companies, they've got different websites, different numbers, in some case different tickets.

 

[highspeed990]

Then perhaps we are talking cross purposes. When I think of dwell times, I look to my schedule. What I'm not looking at is when its safe to close the doors or how long its taken passengers to get on. I do people watch but in no way the extent that I'm timing it. As I'm not moving till T-30, Passengers getting on and off isn't a consideration for me. I'm checking the departure time. If your looking at the potential dwell time being cut short because loading and unloading is quicker then I'll bow to your far greater knowledge. I don't check for that whatsoever. As has been discussed, the wider doors and fewer seats means you can shuffle people on and off much quicker. I'll agree that all day long. 700 > 319 there for sure.



Again, this is interesting. I've certainly still made announcements to get people to move down when we still get overcrowding (same as I brought up previously) Through the core ? Dunno. Not that I can remember for either stock but because I used to wait for station staff to do the announcements I'm more concerned with CD/RA than making announcements. They clash with platform ones so its best left to them. I'll happily defer to you on that.



North of 'The River' You can certainly eat through the SRTs. As mentioned, I'm using brake where previously I'm desperate for power. Through the core I'm just not seeing any difference because I've always made time back. But after that, whooosh to St Albans 700 >> 319.

On a side note to late running and with a small relation through the core. When your late the unit/service in front tends to pull away and where you can crawl through restrictive aspects, late running means your headway clears. Signals step to green and your good to hit linespeed more. Typically, I get checked down to a red in Belsize and I creep through. When I'm late, its green so I pull 75 through the tunnel and hit West Hampstead at speed rather than any acceleration from a crawl. Its a small phenomenon but not one passengers would immediately notice.

Another experience related note. Between you, I, and the general public, there are obvious differences. You see (as a passenger) peak time services. I tend to see a whole spectrum of services. As we are both 'Railwaymen' we see the more technical side of this all so we can see some both incremental gains and also see potential gains. Between you an I its interesting to see our different perspectives and how different departments see things so different. I see Driver side, you see the Ops side. Passengers are a whole different ball game. They are much much more subjective (as this thread proves). They are learning and I heard a couple yesterday say 'get on anywhere, you can walk through' They know which dors open and dont and even know the door will open even though the announcement said it wouldn't. Old habits potentially being changed for new ones but I think the 700's have slightly changed passenger behaviours. I'm of the mind that the biggest change still needs to come from them.

Always a pleasure, man with the cunning plan

So would you say the 700s are easier to drive than 319s? Also how much improved are the accelaration, are there any nought to statistics?

 

[jon0844]

There's plenty of Virgin Trains East Coast services at Peterborough, most of them don't travel as far as Scotland though. I've also never seen set down only but I guess these services don't show up on the timetable for southbound Peterborough passengers.

The frequency at Stevenage is 1p2h last time I checked, that's fine if you know the timetable, not to mention Hull Trains provide a few services to Stevenage and back a day during the peak.

As for Virgin Trains East Coast Not wanting short distance passengers occupying seats, the reservations are separate for each part of the journey so I don't think that's an issue.

I've also seen plenty of 313s at Peterborough.

I know reservation cards can cover multiple reservations, but nobody wants a packed train that stops walk up passengers getting on because it is taking hundreds of people only as far as Stevenage. Imagine how many users travel on GN fast and semi fast trains every hour. 2tph first stop Stevenage after Finsbury Park. 2tph Potters Bar, Hatfield etc. Then the services via Hertford North.

Virgin really don't need them.

 

[highspeed990]

I know reservation cards can cover multiple reservations, but nobody wants a packed train that stops walk up passengers getting on because it is taking hundreds of people only as far as Stevenage. Imagine how many users travel on GN fast and semi fast trains every hour. 2tph first stop Stevenage after Finsbury Park. 2tph Potters Bar, Hatfield etc. Then the services via Hertford North.

Virgin really don't need them.

Exactly, the Great Northern is packed because of people getting on from intermediate stations between stevenage and King's Cross like the ones you mentioned. Take all that away and there are significantly fewer passengers. Most people would prefer to use Virgin Trains East Coast as it is less crowded, more comfortable, quieter (They only use locomotives) and offer refreshments. They offer plenty of services, and it's not bad for the long distance passengers because the scotland trains don't stop at as many stations.

 

[ComUtoR]

So would you say the 700s are easier to drive than 319s?

The 700 would be my preference because it offers more control. A traditional 3 step brake limits what you can do. I like the seating position but in a 319 you could stand up, still the 700 wins out for cab comfort by far. I don't think there is any easier or harder at work here but more of a preference.

Driving being the more important bit I'd edge the 700 but not by much. I'm multi traction and there is little to separate any unit I drive by ease or difficulty.

700s are overly complicated and the HMI/DMI I don't think is a friendly GUI. Its also got way to many software problems and some clash with operational requirements. This is a very bad thing. It looks like Siemens made a train and forgot we drive them in service with passengers and need to do X, Y, and Z. In terms of cab controls and dealing with faults etc. Then I'm going with a 319. 700s. They have been dealing with the software issues and you can update the software so that's a step forward. The problems shouldn't happen. If this was any other product, I'd refund it.

Also how much improved are the acceleration, are there any nought to statistics?

I'm sure there are some somewhere. For me, what I do is pick a point where I know the speed I reach. eg. I pull out of station X and by point Y I'm at 60mph. That way I can judge how my unit is performing. I can also measure how the weather is affecting me and check the motors if I suspect a fault. 700 Vs 319 on DC is tight. 319s are pretty quick to 60 and some of my checkpoints the 319 comes out on top. Not by much though. 700's carry more power between 60 and 100 by far. With more power underneath the bonnet it maintains the power curve right through anything. Its like when your in a small car and you hit a hill. You struggle up to the top and the engine labours hard. Switch to a 4wd Chelsea tractor and your up and you barely feel it. However put both cars on a flat and the small car might just hit 0-60 quicker.

On DC its even but on AC, the 700 every single time. I'd love to try one without the power restriction.

They are definitely geared for metro but with the bonus of mainline power. As a Driver, more than anything I want power and all round performance. 700 wins.

 

[jon0844]

Exactly, the Great Northern is packed because of people getting on from intermediate stations between stevenage and King's Cross like the ones you mentioned. Take all that away and there are significantly fewer passengers. Most people would prefer to use Virgin Trains East Coast as it is less crowded, more comfortable, quieter (They only use locomotives) and offer refreshments. They offer plenty of services, and it's not bad for the long distance passengers because the scotland trains don't stop at as many stations.

I think people would miss the frequency. A faster train is fine if you make it on time. A 20 minute trip isn't much good if the next train is an hour or more away.

Obviously people for Peterborough do pay the extra, but plenty don't. There's a clearer speed advantage too than Stevenage, but GN do run some faster services in the peaks don't they?

 

[highspeed990]

I use thameslink quite a lot so I've probably been on your train at some point. I want to ask something, and this has happened on 319s and 700s but not sure if it happens on other trains, when the train starts to depart a station, it lunges forward a few times as it accelerates, as if max power has been rapidly engaged and disengaged. If I am travelling backwards I am pressed into the seat. Is this something drivers do on purpose or is it out of your control?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expect that’s probably wheelslip.

 

[highspeed990]

I doubt it, this doesn't happen on the tube.

 

[Hadders]

It isn't that much more expensive, what would that be as a percentage? If they sold 3 year tickets the difference would be greater but the percentage difference would remain the same. It's like 'well if you save a pound every day..' And class 313s do operate to Peterborough sometimes.

An Any Permitted season ticket is 18.5% more expensive than a Great Northern only, not insignificant in my opinion.

Class 313s are not booked to operate to Peterborough. They might have gone there by exception in the past (I seem to remember after Hatfield or Potters Bar accidents in the early 2000s a service was operated between Welwyn Garden City and Cambridge using 313s. I’m not sure if they ran to Peterborough as well)

 

[bramling]

Never known a 313 work to Peterborough. They may very occasionally make Biggleswade, most likely empty, but I'm struggling to remember seeing even that happen.

Definitely seen a 313 work to Cambridge in service - a Stevenage to Cambridge shuttle service worked on the day of the Hatfield derailment.

They were booked to run as far as Royston for a couple of timetables in the mid 2000s, although this was more for convenience of reversing than any other reason. This stopped when the timetable changes caused the services to become today's peak XX23 and XX53 Royston services, which then went over to 317s or 365s.

 

[highspeed990]

hmm perhaps it was a 317 I saw?

 

[Hadders]

Deleted duplicate post

 

[SAPhil]

Having watched the behaviour of punters at close quarters, and having been out with the stopwatch timing dwells (from wheels stop to the time when doors could be safely closed), my estimate is that dwells on peak services are between 15-30 seconds shorter with the 700s than 319s / 377s at most busy stations, and nearly a minute better at St Pancras. Perhaps the most noticeable thing is that since the 700s came in, I have never seen or heard any passenger bang on the windows and ask those on board to 'move down the train so we can all get on'. I would see this 3-4 times a week on the 319s / 377s.

Catch a slow one in the morning peak - still happens

 

[Skimble19]

There's plenty of Virgin Trains East Coast services at Peterborough, most of them don't travel as far as Scotland though. I've also never seen set down only but I guess these services don't show up on the timetable for southbound Peterborough passengers.

The frequency at Stevenage is 1p2h last time I checked, that's fine if you know the timetable, not to mention Hull Trains provide a few services to Stevenage and back a day during the peak.

As for Virgin Trains East Coast Not wanting short distance passengers occupying seats, the reservations are separate for each part of the journey so I don't think that's an issue.

I've also seen plenty of 313s at Peterborough.

Hull Trains do not provide services at Stevenage other than a few on sundays and you definitely haven't seen any 313s at Peterborough (at least not recently!) Perhaps you're thinking of 317s but they're gone now.

 

[bengley]

I use thameslink quite a lot so I've probably been on your train at some point. I want to ask something, and this has happened on 319s and 700s but not sure if it happens on other trains, when the train starts to depart a station, it lunges forward a few times as it accelerates, as if max power has been rapidly engaged and disengaged. If I am travelling backwards I am pressed into the seat. Is this something drivers do on purpose or is it out of your control?

Depends on location.

Until about 2/3 months ago 700s had an issue where they would take 66% power straight away even if you chose a lower power level. This resulted in the train lurching forward at 66% effort for a second and then quickly backing off to the drivers' selected power level. This has since been fixed and no longer happens.

Some locations have conductor rail gaps which can cause lurching. Most drivers shut off power over gaps but some don't.

Some locations in the core have low adhesion due to a couple of over active greasers which don't seem to ever get sorted.

Generally I find the 700s to be very smooth at taking power.

 

[bramling]

Why is it so implausible?

Even today it's quite possible to lose 20 minutes on an up GN journey just because the train is off book and has lost its path. In the down direction it doesn't happen nearly so much due to the high likelihood of the train starting its journey on book.

A down train has the chance to get tangled up in the Moorgate services around Potters Bar to Welwyn, tangled up with other down Thameslink services around Welwyn-Hitchin and with fast Cambridge services between Hitchin-Cambridge. Then we have the ultimate delay transmitter - the two long single-line sections Littleport-Downham and Magdalen Road-Kings Lynn, reflecting the whole pack of cards back towards London again.

So on the hypothetical basis the off-peak Thameslink service were to be retrenched back a little, why is it a given that any King's X services would have to be Undesiros? Assuming the Cambridge fast services go fully 387, which I'd say is a given, one now has 19x 365s sitting around doing basically peak hour and evening work. The bulk of the fleet needs to be outstabled overnight, and a proportion would need to go to Hornsey during the midday for maintenance, however this still leaves plenty of units free to work in the middle of the day. What better way to grow your off-peak revenue than giving passengers the features they've said they miss on the Undesiros, like comfortable seats and tables? A 50/50 split between GN and Thameslink should please everyone, the through journey opportunities remain, whilst those who rely on reliability and punctuality get that too.

If things were to include the peaks, any displaced Undesiros would by no means go amiss on the Hertford loop, where their design and SDO capability would be ideal (give or take a few flaws like the ducting and hard seats) to complement the 6-car Moorgate services, which today are in general very much by far the most overcrowded GN services. There's much less scope for delays to transmit on the Hertford loop as all services would be all or most stations, unlike the Hitchin-Cambridge line. Their good acceleration would also come in useful, instead of being wasted once the train reaches 100mph on the fast lines.