Why are the Class 700s so terrible?

[Mutant Lemming]

Probably all covered before but basically boils down to :
ADVANTAGES - No more 4 car peak hour workings. Ability to walk easily through the train to find a seat (if there is one)
DOWNSIDES - Sitting by a window means you end up with one knee below your chin

 

[highspeed990]

I'm not a fan of the 700's seats (they're uncomfortably close to the train wall and some have awful legroom - but then so did many 319 seats), but the class 319 hadn't been a suitable train for the route for years. The very narrow door vestibules and lack of space often made them a nightmare between Gatwick and London.

I remember reading someone claim years ago that you couldn't couple 3 together because the middle unit would have no emergency exit at the end, and that was required in the Snow Hill tunnel. That must have been incorrect or the requirement dropped though, given the class 700 doesn't have end doors.

I think the snow hill tunnel was on the now closed Moorgate branch that wasn't wide enough for evacuation from the side doors. I think class 319s should be kept for long distance and off peak services at least.

 

[highspeed990]

I didn't know that 'the forum' had a view on seats. That sounds like the people wanting to leave the EU despite it being just over a quarter of the electorate who felt strongly enough to use their vote.

Pleeeease no politics

 

[highspeed990]

Because the 700s have improved wider doors which reduces dwell time. That’s the only way you can shove 24 trains an hour through the core.

Has dwell time really improved that much though? I haven't noticed an improvement, and the doors close by sequence in each section of the train.

 

[hassaanhc]

That is simply not the case. Yes there are some journeys over an hour, and there will be more of them when the Thameslink 2018 timetable is in full swing, but the average is not 50 minutes, far from over it.

Firstly a challenge. More than a quarter of current users are just in the core, and from 2018 that is likely to be a third or more. Why are these not representative? Indeed what is representative?

Starting with the Midland Mainline. The Thameslink stations north of St Pancras have around 40 million passengers a year. About 2 million of them use EMT from Bedford and the Lutons. Of the 38m left, 60% use stations from St Albans southwards. Most are going towards the core (with a notable flow to West Hampstead) and very, very few beyond (less than 1%). With a handful of station pair exceptions, all the London flows are less than 25 minutes, some are much less. The 10-20% that aren't going to London are usually making short trips - eg there are large flows from Elstree / Radlett / Harpenden to St Albans for schools. The average for this lot, including the non London journeys, is less than 20 mins.

North of St Albans, journey times are of course (mostly) above 25 minutes to London, but there's not as many of them, and times do vary. The faster TL trains to Bedford, which many Bedford commuters get if not on an EMT, are 50 minutes from St Pancras. Flitwick is 38 mins. Luton just under 30. And there's a lot of people doing Harpenden to St Pancras at, guess what, a little under 25 minutes. The average for this group, again including the non-London journeys, is a little more than 35 mins.

Taken together, then, the average for the north side of TL today is just over 25 minutes excluding the 'internal to core' passengers. Add them in and it's actually under 20.

On the south side it is more complicated for a number of reasons, not least the diversions away from London Bridge and the Southern routes serving many of the stations.

But, generally, the stations closer to London have much higher traffic than those further out. Post 2018 there will, for example, be an awful lot of people doing the hop Croydon to London Bridge on TL in 12-13 minutes. To take another example, Streatham has more than twice as many passengers as the entire Wimbledon loop (Wimbledon to Sutton exclusive). Even then a majority of people on the Wimbledon loop are actually only travelling to Sutton or Wimbledon (same goes for Haydons Rd to Wimbledon). Another one - Loughborough Jn (all Thameslink, mostly less than 10 mins to London) has as many passengers as Wivelsfield and Preston Park combined (shared with Southern, split directions). This all adds up to a lot of short journeys, which brings the average down.


Clearly, there are some journeys on TL that will be over an hour, indeed a very few will be over two. But they are (and will be) a small proportion of the total.

You can of course argue that the 700s are not designed for such journeys over an hour, and if I was feeling particularly benevolent I might agree with you, albeit in the same way that I might agree that a 450 isn't designed for a 2 hour trip from Portsmouth to Waterloo. However it would be very hard to argue that the 700s are not designed for journeys of up to 50-60 minutes, on routes where high capacity is paramount, and which accommodates 80%+ of all Thameslink journeys. That is what I think is representative.

Besides, it could be worse - you could commute from Richmond to Stratford, Amersham to Moorgate or Epping to Shepherd's Bush, all in rather less comfort than a 700.

Completely agree with what you posted, but I'm sure your effort will be wasted as people will only think about themselves . I have never understood just what god-given right they have to extra comfort when so many others with similar journey times don't even have air conditioning or toilets on board, or indeed worry if they will even be able to board trains. Had history been different it could have been residents of St Albans or Redhill having tube stock instead of Epping. That would have bought all lonigtudinal seats, a much more cramped interior, no toilets even on many stations, and maybe even no limited-stop services (yes, the 20 miles from Redhill to Victoria and the 13 miles from Hounslow to Waterloo take about the same time, as the latter only has all-stations services).
Oh how residents of the Piccadilly line Heathrow branch wish they had stock where aisles didn't get blocked by a single suitcase, or indeed stock that isn't some of the oldest in the country (also applicable to the Bakerloo line). Oh how people on the Dartford lines and in the Thames Valley wish they had enough stock for every service to be full-length, and to have air conditioning and toilets on all their trains. Oh how people in the Chilterns wish they had electric trains with faster acceleration and reduced noise.

And yes I'm a huge fan of the 700s, I find their seats perfect for my bad back and legroom is the same as a 450. The incredibly soggy seats found on Classes 458 and on things like Chiltern and Anglia Mk3 coaches are absolutely horrible.

 

[jon0844]

Or just carry a spare battery.

I do, and rarely use power sockets because I don't carry a mains adapter. I do have USB leads though, as they're connected to the power banks.

 

[Bald Rick]

Has dwell time really improved that much though? I haven't noticed an improvement, and the doors close by sequence in each section of the train.

Yes it has. But the timetable hasn't changed yet, so trains that are running to time (ie nearly all of them) will be standing at the station waiti for departure time. However catch a late one coming through the core in the peak and you will find the train makes up 3-4 minutes through quicker station dwells. This did not happen during the peak with the previous rolling stock.

 

[bengley]

I think the snow hill tunnel was on the now closed Moorgate branch that wasn't wide enough for evacuation from the side doors. I think class 319s should be kept for long distance and off peak services at least.

Snow Hill Tunnel is the tunnel between Blackfriars and Farringdon

 

[highspeed990]

Yes it has. But the timetable hasn't changed yet, so trains that are running to time (ie nearly all of them) will be standing at the station waiti for departure time. However catch a late one coming through the core in the peak and you will find the train makes up 3-4 minutes through quicker station dwells. This did not happen during the peak with the previous rolling stock.

My journey time has increased by 4 minutes so the timetable must have changed.

 

[A0]

I think the snow hill tunnel was on the now closed Moorgate branch that wasn't wide enough for evacuation from the side doors. I think class 319s should be kept for long distance and off peak services at least.

No - the Snow Hill tunnel is the one Thameslink services use between Farringdon and Blackfriars.

The one which had restricted space was one of the old 'widened lines' tunnels between Farringdon and Moorgate that necessitated the cab end doors IIRC. Parts of it were pretty tight for 25kv overheads as well - you only need to look at how low the pantograph is on most EMUs at Farringdon to get an idea of that.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes it has. But the timetable hasn't changed yet, so trains that are running to time (ie nearly all of them) will be standing at the station waiti for departure time. However catch a late one coming through the core in the peak and you will find the train makes up 3-4 minutes through quicker station dwells. This did not happen during the peak with the previous rolling stock.

Sometimes you say the strangest of things that I just can't reconcile. Your usually one of the most level headed and edumacated of posters :/

I have been catching time back through the core for years. Southbound at St Pancras you typically get 1/2 minutes dwell and you are generally early there but you catch time back naturally because you have a booked dwell. This hasn't changed between stock and very much existed with 319's. I wouldn't even put it down to the stock either because the dwell time is a booked one. Farringdon has always been a bit of a mixed bag. You used to get additional time given for the pant changeover so your dwell was always longer, some schedules still have this booked. Again, this existed under 319's also and again, a booked dwell time. City you get forever. Again, its been in place there for yoinks. 1/2 minutes dwell for change of Drivers at Blackfriars. You tend to leave Blackfriars on time. Northbound is always a a bit tighter but you still benefit from the timetable feeding minutes back. Farringdon is where I normally see the biggest benefit because you get an extended dwell. I've always relaxed a little through the core as getting +5 back was almost guaranteed.

I do think its a little rose tinted to see dwell time benefits when the timetable hasn't changed and the dwells are more based on the Drivers schedule than any benefit from the stock. Station dwells haven't changed so it is a little disingenuous to say its because of the stock. The time I close the doors and pull away is determined by my schedule. For a real comparison you need to consider the 30 second dwells where your booked in and out in the same minute. The wider doors and the ability to walk through will be a benefit and an improvement. Same with the doors opening it should shave the much needed few seconds from the dwell time.

Performance wise I'm leaning towards the 700's. Not so much acceleration and especially not on DC. What I can see is a marked power improvement. A 319 barely got to 90 let alone 100 but a 700 keeps its acceleration and doesn't drop its performance at higher speeds. I almost never hit the brakes into Elstree tunnel but now I'm watching my speed well into the curve. Radlet southbound, into Cray on the up fast, and for once I actually have a unit that can hit the 30 into Blackfriars. Its just got some serious umphh where it counts. North of the river these units really shine. In relation to the core. The speed is so low that the performance improvement is barely noticeable. 0-60 I'm gonna call even because where I used to mark a units performance there is a whisker between them. 60-100 I'd give it to 700's every time. Anywhere where you need a good few horses under the desk I'd also give to 700's. 319's on a gradient were a bit meh.

 

[highspeed990]

Sometimes you say the strangest of things that I just can't reconcile. Your usually one of the most level headed and edumacated of posters :/

I have been catching time back through the core for years. Southbound at St Pancras you typically get 1/2 minutes dwell and you are generally early there but you catch time back naturally because you have a booked dwell. This hasn't changed between stock and very much existed with 319's. I wouldn't even put it down to the stock either because the dwell time is a booked one. Farringdon has always been a bit of a mixed bag. You used to get additional time given for the pant changeover so your dwell was always longer, some schedules still have this booked. Again, this existed under 319's also and again, a booked dwell time. City you get forever. Again, its been in place there for yoinks. 1/2 minutes dwell for change of Drivers at Blackfriars. You tend to leave Blackfriars on time. Northbound is always a a bit tighter but you still benefit from the timetable feeding minutes back. Farringdon is where I normally see the biggest benefit because you get an extended dwell. I've always relaxed a little through the core as getting +5 back was almost guaranteed.

I do think its a little rose tinted to see dwell time benefits when the timetable hasn't changed and the dwells are more based on the Drivers schedule than any benefit from the stock. Station dwells haven't changed so it is a little disingenuous to say its because of the stock. The time I close the doors and pull away is determined by my schedule. For a real comparison you need to consider the 30 second dwells where your booked in and out in the same minute. The wider doors and the ability to walk through will be a benefit and an improvement. Same with the doors opening it should shave the much needed few seconds from the dwell time.

Performance wise I'm leaning towards the 700's. Not so much acceleration and especially not on DC. What I can see is a marked power improvement. A 319 barely got to 90 let alone 100 but a 700 keeps its acceleration and doesn't drop its performance at higher speeds. I almost never hit the brakes into Elstree tunnel but now I'm watching my speed well into the curve. Radlet southbound, into Cray on the up fast, and for once I actually have a unit that can hit the 30 into Blackfriars. Its just got some serious umphh where it counts. North of the river these units really shine. In relation to the core. The speed is so low that the performance improvement is barely noticeable. 0-60 I'm gonna call even because where I used to mark a units performance there is a whisker between them. 60-100 I'd give it to 700's every time. Anywhere where you need a good few horses under the desk I'd also give to 700's. 319's on a gradient were a bit meh.

I've always wanted why they can't raise the pantograph earlier and simultaneously have the pantograph and the contact shoe deployed to save time

 

[highspeed990]

But yeah Class 700, apart from no crowds Imo has no improvement to the class 319s. I remember the times the 319s had lounge seats. The class 700 seats have leg room designed for women, again to pack people in.

If metro style services are becoming the norm, then just like London Overground and Tfl Rail taking over the GEML with metro style new trains, they should leave the Class 319s to serve Bedford to Brighton fast services.

 

[59CosG95]

But yeah Class 700, apart from no crowds Imo has no improvement to the class 319s. I remember the times the 319s had lounge seats. The class 700 seats have leg room designed for women, again to pack people in.

If metro style services are becoming the norm, then just like London Overground and Tfl Rail taking over the GEML with metro style new trains, they should leave the Class 319s to serve Bedford to Brighton fast services.

That's as maybe, but
a) Due to power constraints imposed by the existing OLE, 12-car 319s could only go at 75mph north of St Pancras, so the "fast" part of the plan is in itself a misnomer.
b) BED-BTN services are the main ones due to be using 12-cars, so using the above plan with 8-car 319s wouldn't achieve the desired result for hoovering up the punters at either end.
c) If you believe that the 700s have bad seats for a relatively fast journey, you should perhaps try taking a Pacer round the Cumbrian Coast. 700s might seem like luxury then!
d) if you want "packed in", try getting a peak-time XC service from Notts to Cardiff (via B'ham New St); 2 coaches for 2 hours of hell.

Phew, rant over.

 

[highspeed990]

That's as maybe, but
a) Due to power constraints imposed by the existing OLE, 12-car 319s could only go at 75mph north of St Pancras, so the "fast" part of the plan is in itself a misnomer.
b) BED-BTN services are the main ones due to be using 12-cars, so using the above plan with 8-car 319s wouldn't achieve the desired result for hoovering up the punters at either end.
c) If you believe that the 700s have bad seats for a relatively fast journey, you should perhaps try taking a Pacer round the Cumbrian Coast. 700s might seem like luxury then!
d) if you want "packed in", try getting a peak-time XC service from Notts to Cardiff (via B'ham New St); 2 coaches for 2 hours of hell.

Phew, rant over.

So how does that work do class 319s require more power?

And as for the pacers well it's a known fact the north is neglected but these are older trains so it wouldn't make sense to compare the two.

Trains now are low quality foreign built characterless rubbish built to only perform the most basic required tasks. They won't bother making them comfortable no but will strive to make them 'environment friendly' for all the tree huggers.

Older underground trains were more comfortable, like the old A stock, and look at the new trains.

 

[highspeed990]

I can't wait to see the shambles thameslink will be when it expands to Peterborough. Will they be using 700s? And will Great northern no longer operate to Peterborough?

 

[MCR247]

But yeah Class 700, apart from no crowds Imo has no improvement to the class 319s. I remember the times the 319s had lounge seats. The class 700 seats have leg room designed for women, again to pack people in.

If metro style services are becoming the norm, then just like London Overground and Tfl Rail taking over the GEML with metro style new trains, they should leave the Class 319s to serve Bedford to Brighton fast services.

Not sure about them having seats designed for 'women'?? Interesting way to decide to make your point

In your opinion the 700s offer no improvement to 319s, whilst in almost everyone elses opinion they do. They aren't pefect and do have design flaws to the point where I can see why people preferred electrostars but 319s? Sounds like you need to take off those rose tinted specs

 

[bonzawe]

I think it will be interesting to see passengers views from Cambridge in a couple of years. They will have a choice (albeit not on the same route) of 3 very different seating plans

700 - narrow seats no armrests maximum standing room 2+1 and mainly 2+2 seating
387 - wider seats with armrests, less standing room 2+2 seating
720 - narrow seats no armrests least standing room but 2+3 seats maximum seating
the contrast in policy between the 3 could not be larger

I am sure we will be divided on what we prefer, personally I prefer a uncomfortable seet to standing.

 

[MCR247]

I think 2+1 is a bit misleading, this is only in the wheelchair area isn't it? And are the seats on 387s a different width the ones on 700s? I thought they were the same but more spaced out with armrests

 

[bonzawe]

I think 2+1 is a bit misleading, this is only in the wheelchair area isn't it? And are the seats on 387s a different width the ones on 700s? I thought they were the same but more spaced out with armrests

700 Yes hence mainly 2+2, the wider spacing in a 387 does make a big difference if you are bigger, much more shoulder room, with the window seat so close to the wall in the 700 the person in the other seat tends to overlap the aisle anyway

 

[MCR247]

700 Yes hence mainly 2+2, the wider spacing in a 387 does make a big difference if you are bigger, much more shoulder room, with the window seat so close to the wall in the 700 the person in the other seat tends to overlap the aisle anyway

Fair enough but I just thought it was a bit odd to refer to the 2+1 personally. Don't class 387s have some sideways seats? (or is that just 377/6s I can't rememeber they're so similar). Yeah I'm not disputing the difference it makes, but saying 'wider seats' isn't really true is it?

 

[Skimble19]

I can't wait to see the shambles thameslink will be when it expands to Peterborough. Will they be using 700s? And will Great northern no longer operate to Peterborough?

Great Northern will still operate fast services from Peterborough to Kings Cross using 365s, calling Huntingdon, St Neots, Biggleswade and Stevenage during the peaks and at weekends in the morning and evening.

 

[highspeed990]

Not sure about them having seats designed for 'women'?? Interesting way to decide to make your point

In your opinion the 700s offer no improvement to 319s, whilst in almost everyone elses opinion they do. They aren't pefect and do have design flaws to the point where I can see why people preferred electrostars but 319s? Sounds like you need to take off those rose tinted specs

It seems only women can fit in them. You're right that most people don't like the 319s but most people agree class 700s is 1 step forward 2 steps back if you will. I like the 387s more than the 319s but the 319s more than the 700s

 

[highspeed990]

Great Northern will still operate fast services from Peterborough to Kings Cross using 365s, calling Huntingdon, St Neots, Biggleswade and Stevenage during the peaks and at weekends in the morning and evening.

I still don't get this. Virgin Trains East Coast provide a fast service to Stevenage and Peterborough. Thameslink will provide the stopping service calling at all the stations and go further than King's Cross, making the Great Northern obsolete for the King's Cross to Peterborough route. IMO Thameslink should go up to Cambridge, Ely, and King's Lynn too but then again that would also probably end in disaster.

 

[ooo]

Trains now are low quality foreign built characterless rubbish built to only perform the most basic required tasks. They won't bother making them comfortable no but will strive to make them 'environment friendly' for all the tree huggers.

Electrostars which are some of the newest trains were built in Derby which is in this country.
It's hardly a bad thing to make things more environmentally friendly if we want to protect the planet

 

[goblinuser]

So how does that work do class 319s require more power?

And as for the pacers well it's a known fact the north is neglected but these are older trains so it wouldn't make sense to compare the two.

Trains now are low quality foreign built characterless rubbish built to only perform the most basic required tasks. They won't bother making them comfortable no but will strive to make them 'environment friendly' for all the tree huggers.

Older underground trains were more comfortable, like the old A stock, and look at the new trains.

It's possible to have comfortable and environmentally friendly together, it's not one or the other.
Blame the demand for rail for the reduce in comfort - it's about moving as many people as possible, comfort is now an afterthought sadly. (Small seats, longitudinal seats on mainline stock). But modern stock does have benefits too - air conditioning and heating is usually miles better than before.

 

[Deety]

I would take a 700 all day long over the 319s we used to get going south to Brighton from P5 at London Bridge in the evening peak.

Doesn't look like I have much choice anyway as my normal commute has slid from 442 -> 377 -> 700 in recent months. I suppose it could be worse!

 

[TheDavibob]

I still don't get this. Virgin Trains East Coast provide a fast service to Stevenage and Peterborough. Thameslink will provide the stopping service calling at all the stations and go further than King's Cross, making the Great Northern obsolete for the King's Cross to Peterborough route. IMO Thameslink should go up to Cambridge, Ely, and King's Lynn too but then again that would also probably end in disaster.

Do you know what you're talking about? Thameslink will replace the semi-fast and slow services to Cambridge. Great Northern will operate the express service to Cambridge (and Kings Lynn), and the semi-fast service to Peterborough (which is essentially the fast service for Sandy, Biggleswade, etc. and is cheaper than the VTEC service (which isn't really designed for Pboro/Stevenage - London). Thameslink to Kings Lynn would be horribly compromised by the single track sections, sharing tracks with other services and the limit on stock length.

 

[highspeed990]

Electrostars which are some of the newest trains were built in Derby which is in this country.
It's hardly a bad thing to make things more environmentally friendly if we want to protect the planet

It's possible to have comfortable and environmentally friendly together, it's not one or the other.
Blame the demand for rail for the reduce in comfort - it's about moving as many people as possible, comfort is now an afterthought sadly. (Small seats, longitudinal seats on mainline stock). But modern stock does have benefits too - air conditioning and heating is usually miles better than before.

I won't talk about the environment further because I don't want to turn this into a political discussion, and I didn't say you couldn't have comfort and eco friendly together, I'm angry that they do one and not the other.

 

[highspeed990]

Do you know what you're talking about? Thameslink will replace the semi-fast and slow services to Cambridge. Great Northern will operate the express service to Cambridge (and Kings Lynn), and the semi-fast service to Peterborough (which is essentially the fast service for Sandy, Biggleswade, etc. and is cheaper than the VTEC service (which isn't really designed for Pboro/Stevenage - London). Thameslink to Kings Lynn would be horribly compromised by the single track sections, sharing tracks with other services and the limit on stock length.

No I don't know what I'm talking about hence 'I still don't get this'. Rather than having 2 different operators providing fast and slow services they should combine the two like the old First Capital Connect.
And Virgin Trains East Coast is designed for that; express services. They're not that much more expensive, I've used them and it's better than ricketing along on a packed 313 at peak time.