Why are some coach letters skipped on trains with lettered coaches ?

[JulienD]

Take an Intercity 225 for example, like the 1D25 1739 London Kings Cross to Bradford Forster Square. There's no coach A, it starts at B, and it skips other letters as well.
Surely it should just go A, B, C, D, E, F, G? I've seen coach letters skipped on IETs as well, with both the LNER and GWR.

 

[321362]

I know I is skipped because it looks too similar to 1, but don't know why A would be. Possibly because that service was previously 9 cars?

 

[MrJeeves]

There's no coach A, it starts at B, and it skips other letters as well.
Surely it should just go A, B, C, D, E, F, G?

I think there's no A because they had one coach fewer standard class(?) or at least a slightly different formation versus the HSTs. This way A through H would be standard class for both fleets.

From https://web.archive.org/web/2015062...narkive.com/G2DJRNvk/gner-ic225-coach-letters:

IC125: (PowerCar)-A-B-C-D-E---G---J---L-M-(PowerCar)
IC225: (Class 91)---B-C-D-E-F-G---J---L-M-(DVT)[not yet overhauled]
IC225: (Class 91)---B-C-D-E---G---J-K-L-M-(DVT)[not yet overhauled]
IC225: (Class 91)---B-C-D-E---G-H---K-L-M-(DVT)["Mallard" rakes]

In all of the above cases
Cars A - H are Standard
Cars J - M are First Class.
Car H is the "Bistro".
Car J is the Restuarant.
Note that the letter "I" is not used.

I've seen coach letters skipped on IETs as well, with both the LNER and GWR.

Again, to maintain consistency between the different IET configurations (e.g., 5 car and 9 car) so that a letter which is in both units will have the same coach layout for reservation purposes.

 

[Segedunum]

I think there's no A because they had one coach fewer standard class(?) or at least a slightly different formation versus the HSTs. This way A through H would be standard class for both fleets.

HSTs had nine coaches apart from an ex-EMT/Midland Mainline set which had eight coaches and a (usually) captive diagram. IIRC the coach lettering for those was BCDEFGJLM.

Indeed though it's partly to keep the same letters related to each respective class and general seating layout/facilities so there aren't any wild inconsistencies. E.G a nine-car Azuma is ABCGHJKLM which skips out D (Standard/First Composite, five or 10-car) and E (First on a five or 10-car) as well as F (10-car only, same layout as A, fewer seats as a result). There are fewer luggage racks on five-car and 10-car sets so you end up with some minor seating differences in A/B/C etc but otherwise they're largely the same.

10-car trains don't have L as that's a full carriage of First on a nine-car which doesn't exist on a 10-car, only a composite car and a kitchen car (times two).

On 225s, E is missing because it's been removed as part of shortening to seven cars. There's no G as the HSTs had a full carriage of seats in G while H only has a limited number of seats due to the cafe bar being in it. Similarly no J as that was where the cafe bar was on HSTs with only a small number of First Class seats, while K has substantially more.

 

[43096]

I think there's no A because they had one coach fewer standard class(?) or at least a slightly different formation versus the HSTs. This way A through H would be standard class for both fleets.

I think coach A is missing from the 225s because on the HST fleet it was used for the bike spaces in the van. By assigning a coach letter to the TGS van it enabled bike reservations to be managed.

 

[hexagon789]

Take an Intercity 225 for example, like the 1D25 1739 London Kings Cross to Bradford Forster Square. There's no coach A, it starts at B, and it skips other letters as well.
Surely it should just go A, B, C, D, E, F, G? I've seen coach letters skipped on IETs as well, with both the LNER and GWR.

The 225s were relettered in 2004/5 as part of the Mallard refurbishment, and to homogenise the letters with the HSTs which were upped to 2+9 at the time, though there were a couple letters unique to each type.

For some years, A was the van space on the HSTs, so B was notionally the first "carriage" in Standard on both types.

E and M were removed when the 225s were shortened to seven coaches.

I know I is skipped because it looks too similar to 1, but don't know why A would be. Possibly because that service was previously 9 cars?

CrossCountry use I on double Voyagers.

But I agree that traditionally I was omitted for that reason.

I think there's no A because they had one coach fewer standard class(?) or at least a slightly different formation versus the HSTs. This way A through H would be standard class for both fleets.

After Mallard, A on the HSTs was the van in the TGS, otherwise the seating started at B on both HSTs and 225s:

(A - van space on HSTs)
B - Standard
C - Standard
D - Standard
E - Standard
F - Standard Accesible
G - Standard. HST only.
H - Standard/Buffet. 225 only
J - First Class/Buffet. HST only
K - First Class. 225 only
L - First Accessible
M - First
(P - DVT van space. 225 only)

 

[Merle Haggard]

HSTs had nine coaches apart from an ex-EMT/Midland Mainline set which had eight coaches and a (usually) captive diagram. IIRC the coach lettering for those was BCDEFGJLM.

Indeed though it's partly to keep the same letters related to each respective class and general seating layout/facilities so there aren't any wild inconsistencies. E.G a nine-car Azuma is ABCGHJKLM which skips out D (Standard/First Composite, five or 10-car) and E (First on a five or 10-car) as well as F (10-car only, same layout as A, fewer seats as a result). There are fewer luggage racks on five-car and 10-car sets so you end up with some minor seating differences in A/B/C etc but otherwise they're largely the same.

10-car trains don't have L as that's a full carriage of First on a nine-car which doesn't exist on a 10-car, only a composite car and a kitchen car (times two).

On 225s, E is missing because it's been removed as part of shortening to seven cars. There's no G as the HSTs had a full carriage of seats in G while H only has a limited number of seats due to the cafe bar being in it. Similarly no J as that was where the cafe bar was on HSTs with only a small number of First Class seats, while K has substantially more.

The Midland Mainline HSTs weren't quite that simple. The 'Cutler Sets' had 3 TFOs and the other sets with 2 didn't have a 'G'.

I only noticed it in the days when MML gave out the Evening Standard free in the first class. After a mishap on GWR its front page headline was 'Horror in Coach G'; I noticed that there was no G in the train I was on (F and H were adjacent) so I thought that some hasty re-lettering had been done, but it was actually the normal situation.

There was one less TSO in the Cutler sets, but I'm not sure which letter was missing.

 

[DarloRich]

It is done to cause confusion obviously

 

[Fokx]

At Transpennine multiple class 185s run as ABC EFG

Carriage D was/is intentionally missed out from the days of the class 350 so that first class would always be coaches C and G in the event of a 185 substitution. Prior to the arrival of the 350's, first class used to be coach A which is why the seat numbering is the wrong way round to what you would expect, with seat numbers in the high 60's and low 70's closest to the cab.

When they had class 170's they ran as:
AC DF HJ.

 

[eisenach]

I distinctly remember bringing a school group back from France. We were booked on an HST from Paddington to Hereford. A nice chap from the Paddington staff took us early down to the platform so that we had priority boarding. We were booked on coach E. In rolled the train : A;B; C; D; F; G ...
Chaos as he said, " quick, get on the unreserved coach before the crowds arrive..."
We did, fortunately, and then quickly the coach jammed from both directions as people looked for their reserved seats in Coach E. Problem only partly resolved after Reading.
I dread to think what would have happened if we hadn't had the nice Paddington chap.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

On Pendolinos an extra letter is slotted in
9 cars - ABCDEF--HJK
11 cars - ABCDEFUGHJK
U and G were added when they were upgraded to 11 car (although I believe it was actually U and F added, with 9 car's G (first) being converted to F (standard).

Then later on 11 car's G was concerned to standard.

Not sure why F was missed out on original 9 cars
Maybe to do with HSTs?
Voyagers/Everos also have weird lettering I haven't committed to memory


Edit: Had I in both, removed.

 

[Sorcerer]

A thought that just sprang to mind. Could some letters be excluded because they may sound similar to each other? For example I can see some passengers confusing A with I in announcements, particularly accented ones, but then on that logic how would you differentiate between B, C, D, E and G? Or even J and K? I would like to say that they sound more cleanly different even with accents but I'm not so confident.

On Pendolinos an extra letter is slotted in
9 cars - ABCDEF--HIJK
11 cars - ABCDEFUGHIJK
U and G were added when they were upgraded to 11 car (although I believe it was actually U and F added, with 9 car's G (first) being converted to F (standard).

Then later on 11 car's G was concerned to standard.

Not sure why F was missed out on original 9 cars
Maybe to do with HSTs?
Voyagers/Everos also have weird lettering I haven't committed to memory

Slight little typo with the including of a Coach I in both formations, but you're otherwise pretty much spot on. The original formations were ABCDEGHJK, with F and U added on 11-car formations, and then Coach G being converted to Coach F when the 9-car units had a first coach converted to standard. Everos are ABCDJ on 805s with a doubled up formation turning the second set coaches into LMNPK respectively. The 807s are all ABCDEHJ.

It is done to cause confusion obviously

Confusion and delay? Wait until The Fat Controller hears about this!

 

[Merle Haggard]

On Pendolinos an extra letter is slotted in
9 cars - ABCDEF--HIJK
11 cars - ABCDEFUGHIJK
U and G were added when they were upgraded to 11 car (although I believe it was actually U and F added, with 9 car's G (first) being converted to F (standard).

Then later on 11 car's G was concerned to standard.

Not sure why F was missed out on original 9 cars
Maybe to do with HSTs?
Voyagers/Everos also have weird lettering I haven't committed to memory

Was the missing F connected to the conversion from 8 car to 9 car possibly?
There isn't an I of course, take it as fat finger.

 

[JonathanH]

I think coach A is missing from the 225s because on the HST fleet it was used for the bike spaces in the van. By assigning a coach letter to the TGS van it enabled bike reservations to be managed.

Also, in the Intercity days, the TGS (standard trailer with guard area coupled next to the power car) wasn't the smoking coach on a 125 (nor the BSO (half brake coach, standard class) on a Mark 2 set), with the first full TS (standard class trailer) taking that role, whereas the TSOE (standard class trailer coupled to the locomotive with no end gangway) on a 225 was, so it would make sense to have both smoking coaches as coach B.

 

[py_megapixel]

On Pendolinos an extra letter is slotted in
9 cars - ABCDEF--HIJK
11 cars - ABCDEFUGHIJK
U and G were added when they were upgraded to 11 car (although I believe it was actually U and F added, with 9 car's G (first) being converted to F (standard).

There seem to be ten coaches in your 9 car set there!

Voyagers/Everos also have weird lettering I haven't committed to memory

I believe Voyagers all have ABDF, 5-car sets additionally have C, and then E is reserved as it was thought at some point in the distant past that sixth carriages might be ordered for each set.

(I'm sure many on this forum would be delighted to see additional carriages added to Cross Country sets but that ship has now sailed, packed to the rafters with all the people who couldn't fit into the shortformed train...)

 

[hexagon789]

Was the missing F connected to the conversion from 8 car to 9 car possibly?
There isn't an I of course, take it as fat finger.

E was the vehicle added to make the original 8 cars up to 9. (Some of the later first batch sets entered service as 9 with E present already.)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There isn't an I of course, take it as fat finger.

Slight little typo with the including of a Coach I in both formations,

I may or may not have just typed out the alphabet but inserted a U - somehow missed the very important part of skipping I
Corrected in original post.

 

[sabanda]

I believe Voyagers all have ABDF, 5-car sets additionally have C, and then E is reserved as it was thought at some point in the distant past that sixth carriages might be ordered for each set.

4-car XC Voyagers are ACDF with 221s having the unreserved seating in coach B. If I remember correctly, the 607 and 608 vehicles were swapped, putting the 'new' large luggage storage area (former buffet) in Coach D rather than directly behind first class. They have also been swapped on the ex-Avanti sets which of course retain their buffets for now.

 

[Krokodil]

Voyagers/Everos also have weird lettering I haven't committed to memory

Everos:
ABCDJ-LMNPK where J and K are 1st class.

 

[thenorthern]

Coach U on the Pendos stood for unreserved as when they were expanded to 11 coaches the U was one of the unreserved coaches.

As others have said I is not used a lot as in some fonts it can easily be confused with a 1.

 

[Magdalia]

This is only a vague recollection, but I think the absence of coach A on ECML trains is to do with smoking.

The ECML was one of the last routes to allow smoking and the smoking was in coach A on the Mark IV sets..

 

[Jim the Jim]

They think some passengers might start counting from the loco ("A") and so it makes sense for B to be the coach immediately behind it?

 

[mmh]

This is only a vague recollection, but I think the absence of coach A on ECML trains is to do with smoking.

The ECML was one of the last routes to allow smoking and the smoking was in coach A on the Mark IV sets..

That's right, it was the last route. I don't think this will be the reason - they didn't take the coach away when smoking was stopped.

 

[SansHache]

On Pendolinos an extra letter is slotted in
9 cars - ABCDEF--HJK
11 cars - ABCDEFUGHJK
U and G were added when they were upgraded to 11 car (although I believe it was actually U and F added, with 9 car's G (first) being converted to F (standard).

Then later on 11 car's G was concerned to standard.

Not sure why F was missed out on original 9 cars
Maybe to do with HSTs?
Voyagers/Everos also have weird lettering I haven't committed to memory


Edit: Had I in both, removed.

The original Pendolino design was for an 8-car train that could be extended to 9-car or 10-car by the addition of extra trailer vehicles in the middle of the unit.
The 8-cars were labelled A,B,C,D,G,H,J,K, leaving a gap for E and F for 9-car and 10-car versions. G,H,J and K were all first class vehicles.
When extended to 9-car this became A,B,C,D,E,G,H,J,K, with E being an additional standard class vehicle.
By 2007 it was clear that 9-car was insufficient for future capacity demands and extension to 10-car would only provide temporary relief. The infrastructure costs of extending to 12-car were excessive (platform lengths at terminal stations) so the optimum solution was 11-car trains. It was not possible to maintain journey times with three trailer vehicles, so the two additional cars were fitted with an additional transformer and Traction equipment.
The 11-car formation then became A,B,C,D,E,F,U,G,H,J,K. The 11th vehicle was labelled U (Unreserved) as it was out of sequence anyway. G,H,J and K initially remained as first class vehicles on 11-car trains.
To provide a better balance between standard class accommodation on 9-car (5 standard vehicles) and 11-car (7 standard vehicles) trains, coach G on 9-car trains was converted to standard and renamed coach F, thereby aligning with coach F on the 11-car train. This resulted in the current 9-car formation of A,B,C,D,E,F,H,J,K.
Coach G on 11-car trains was subsequently converted from first to standard as the demand for business travel reduced.

 

[43096]

This is only a vague recollection, but I think the absence of coach A on ECML trains is to do with smoking.

The ECML was one of the last routes to allow smoking and the smoking was in coach A on the Mark IV sets..

As per the posts above, the absence of Coach A is to do with bike reservations - on HSTs the bike spaces in the TGS were "Coach A".

 

[swt_passenger]

4-car XC Voyagers are ACDF with 221s having the unreserved seating in coach B. If I remember correctly, the 607 and 608 vehicles were swapped, putting the 'new' large luggage storage area (former buffet) in Coach D rather than directly behind first class. They have also been swapped on the ex-Avanti sets which of course retain their buffets for now.

Did Virgin Avanti change their 221s to A-E when they did the premium first changes? If so presumably XC will have changed them back to ABCD-F again?

 

[hexagon789]

Did Avanti change their 221s to A-E when they did the premium first changes? If so presumably XC will have changed them back to ABCD-F again?

The A, B, C, D, E change on the West Coast 221 fleet was under Virgin.

 

[swt_passenger]

The A, B, C, D, E change on the West Coast 221 fleet was under Virgin.

Yes of course. Doesn’t time fly…

 

[hexagon789]

Yes of course. Doesn’t time fly…

Does indeed.

I think it dates from when the buffet was remarshalled next to First Class, and then Virgin used D as pseudo-First Class on Chester/North Wales duties.

 

[Snow1964]

On Cardiff-Portsmouth get all sorts of combinations,

seen pairs of 2car 165s with something like D-E-E-D, or a 166+165 something like C-B-A-E-D, never any attempt to reletter the coaches into alphabetical order with turbos

When 158s form trains (which is usually just 3 of 8 trains on the circuit), either more logical order or coach letters are not obvious