Why Are Rail Replacement Buses So Slow ?

[infobleep]

I am pleased to report that during two weeks of RRB's when the Loughor bridge was renewed, the buses were considerably quicker than the timetable suggested.

As mentioned above, the timetables have to be robust to allow for emergency roadworks, heavy traffic,and other unforeseen incidents.

I seem to remember missing a train to Guildford from Reigate because the replacement bus from Gatwick got stuck in traffic.

 

[Olaf]

On Saturday I intend to travel from Bicester to Oxford but engineering work means there is a bus replacement between Bicester and Oxford. This service is scheduled to take 40 minutes with one stop at Islip. The S5 service bus has numerous stops and only takes 38 minutes.
While I can understand that many rail passengers would be unaware of the change of mode for their journey and may slow things down a bit as a result, I can't see how it can take longer than the service bus which has many more stops and a driver having to collect fares and issue tickets.

At one extreme, it could be that the driver of the replacement bus does not know the route to take:
http://www.kingstonguardian.co.uk/n...plaints_over_weekend_bus_replacement_service/
- These buses were running due to maintenance work on the line between Waterloo and Clapham Junction (and possibly on the Kingston Loop).

 

[infobleep]

In fact last weekend I missed two connecting trains because the bus service either was late or couldn't cope with numbers wanting to catch a or both. This was Haywards Heath to Three Bridges. I wasn't expecting problems because nothing had been tweeted about bus problems. The 17 minute delay caused me to be 40 minutes late into Guildford and that was only because a connecting train was late and I got an unofficial connection at Clapham Junction. Otherwise it would have been 60 minute delay.

I was relying on the timetable on National Rail Enquiries. Wasn't aware that would be unreliable.

 

[Chrisgr31]

The Uckfield line is an example where the bust takes a lot longer than the train. Train Crowborough to Oxted is around 35 minutes and driving is bout the same. The replacement bus takes an hour or more it used to be longer.

I have complained numerous times about the bus going from Oxted to Hurst Green as its first stop as invariably Hurst Green is still served by East Grinstead trains when the Uckfield line is shut. However they say the bus still has to go there, they have however looked at the route of the bus, and found a much quicker route from Hurst Green to Oxted.

However as others have said the issue is all the stations and the fact there aren't direct routes to them. The bus cant get close to Hever station, and Ashurst to Eridge is a nightmare, and for those going beyond Crowborough Crowborough to Buxted is a nightmare road route.

It would seem easier to use taxis between the minor stations allowing buses to run between the major ones.

Oh and of course an unplanned closure is far better to a planned one, tend to get coaches on an unplanned closure, beaten up buses on a planned one!

To give Southern credit they have looked at the issues RRB cause and during unplanned closures get ticket acceptance on the 29 bus between Lewes and Tunbridge Wells which gives better options albeit it doesn't go to Buxted or Crowborough, but they also tend to run RRBs Uckfield to Haywards Heath, so they do try. The biggest mystery though is how in an unplanned closure everyone seems to evaporate!

 

[341o2]

Whenever there is a replacement express bus between Southampton (departing from the airport) & Bournemouth it is quicker than the normal train service.

not surprising when the bus can almost be immediately on the motorway and travel on unrestricted roads non stop (bar traffic congestion) until there is a 50mph limit on the Wesex way in the vicinity of Christchurch

would be a very different story if the buses all called at Southampton Central and Brockenhurst as well

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Because they're buses. There's a clue in the name!

 

[Robertj21a]

Because they're buses. There's a clue in the name!

.....and because they are *buses* on rail *replacement* work - 2 clues.

I wonder how much longer it would take if trains had to replace buses on a service.......

 

[PHILIPE]

Incidentally, as a possible point of interest, passengers missing trains in West Wales, especially at Llanelli, today due to rail replacement busses having been heavily delayed as a result of road closures and congestion brought about by the Llanelli Half Marathon

 

[lincolnshire]

Because they're buses. There's a clue in the name!

I like the quote above.

How many cars or buses leave the station and can do say 60 mph just down the road in a built up town then?

Also out on the open road whats the maximum speed for a bus / coach 56 mph? as against a train 70, 75, 90 mph ? and nobody in front of you or in the next lane .

It also depends if coaches are used or service buses as there can be different gearing to suit the usual travelling conditions, e.g on town work a higher speeds just can,t be achieved so not required.

Better you get there than not at all, wonder what people would think if they just said sorry no trains while monday morning from here and no alternative transport provided see you monday.

 

[al78]

I like the quote above.

How many cars or buses leave the station and can do say 60 mph just down the road in a built up town then?

Also out on the open road whats the maximum speed for a bus / coach 56 mph? as against a train 70, 75, 90 mph ? and nobody in front of you or in the next lane .

It also depends if coaches are used or service buses as there can be different gearing to suit the usual travelling conditions, e.g on town work a higher speeds just can,t be achieved so not required.

Better you get there than not at all, wonder what people would think if they just said sorry no trains while monday morning from here and no alternative transport provided see you monday.

But the question was why the rail replacement buses are significantly slower than standard buses, not why they are slower than the trains they replace.

 

[fowler9]

But the question was why the rail replacement buses are significantly slower than standard buses, not why they are slower than the trains they replace.

I think it was answered earlier but because many bus services follow routes planned out based on the road network. The minute you make a bus follow the rail network and its stations it has to wander all over the place. Where I live isn't too bad. A rail replacement bus from Lime Street to West Allerton follows a fairly sensible route as far as Liverpool South Parkway. It is much quicker than the 80 or 86 and not much slower than the train. Once you get to all stops beyond Liverpool South Parkway to Manchester Oxford Road it is an absolute nightmare. Just look at a map of where the main roads are between Liverpool and Manchester and where the stations are.

 

[duffers2324]

At one extreme, it could be that the driver of the replacement bus does not know the route to take:
http://www.kingstonguardian.co.uk/n...plaints_over_weekend_bus_replacement_service/
- These buses were running due to maintenance work on the line between Waterloo and Clapham Junction (and possibly on the Kingston Loop).

I remember this happened with me quite a few years ago now there was engineering work going on between Glasgow and Motherwell via Bellshill line and there was only a few of us on board the bus which happened to be a small minibus type, the driver clearly wasent sure were to go and had to ask the couple at the front which way to Bellshill so we got there and lo and behold everyone bar myself got off the bus at Bellshill, this then meant the driver asking me which way to go to get to Uddingston which I had no clue either it was dark and probably around 7-8o clock we ended up missing Uddingston all together but managed to get to Cambuslang then straight to Central to my relief but I was just hoping that no one had been waiting at Uddingston seeing as me and the driver made a hash of trying to get there and missed it out altogether!

 

[bicbasher]

I've found RRB's in South London to be more a game of Pot Luck.

Yesterday, it took 25 mins to get from Forest Hill to New Cross Gate. This was due to a combination of traffic in Forest Hill and Brockley, pax asking the driver questions which held up the service and the sheer wait of unloading and boarding passengers.

Whenever I board the Tube RRB's, these are marshalled with a person at every stop ensuring calling the name of the station and to answer customer enquiries.

The Southern RRB I endured yesterday boarded on a farce, which even included the driver stopping at another bus stop to the one planned between Southern and LOROL!

Apparently, someone else witnessed a driver skipping Honor Oak Park.

 

[as1981]

At one extreme, it could be that the driver of the replacement bus does not know the route to take

I've had that problem as well, at least once, twice I think. Also had a bus driver tell me he was going to my station and then skip it. He clearly didn't have a clue there are two different stations in that area. I ended up stranded at about 9:30pm in the winter and had to ring for a lift. Not impressed.

 

[Dr_Paul]

The North London Line is absolutely awful when it's a replacement bus. To go from Highbury and Islington to Gospel Oak takes three or four times as long as the train as there are no direct routes suitable for a bus from one station to the next (which is of course why it's a very useful rail service), and a morass of one-way roads around Camden Town makes things worse. Other parts of the NLL aren't that easy for buses, especially Willesden Junction down to Gunnersbury, although I've not had to do that bit by bus.

The Kingston loop from Wimbledon to Richmond, another route I've had to do by bus, is considerably less complicated, and is not greatly slower than the train. However, the obvious route (on a map) from Norbiton to Kingston goes under a low bridge, and conspicuous signs are put up at Norbiton warning drivers of this. Nonetheless, some time back one driver didn't take note, and his bus managed to hit the bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... the driver clearly wasent sure were to go and had to ask the couple at the front which way to Bellshill so we got there and lo and behold everyone bar myself got off the bus at Bellshill, this then meant the driver asking me which way to go to get to Uddingston which I had no clue either...

That reminds me when I was on a 168 bus in Holborn going to Waterloo when that route was run by Grey-Green and the drivers were not local men, and a bomb-scare closed Kingsway and Aldwych. The driver didn't know where to go; fortunately I was standing by the cab, and I directed him via Shaftsbury Avenue, Trafalgar Square, Whitehall, Westminster Bridge and around by County Hall to Waterloo.

 

[sor]

Some rail replacement is quicker than the trains being replaced.

During the Dawlish issues I was actually getting home quicker because the direct Bodmin/Tiverton coach was somewhat quicker than the HST would have been - where the coach was almost all dual carriageway/motorway at whatever speed a coach is allowed to do.

Plus the morning coach was nearly empty, had leather seats and didn't have its internal lights on, so much nicer to try to catch some sleep than trying to do it in standard

 

[notadriver]

That reminds me when I was on a 168 bus in Holborn going to Waterloo when that route was run by Grey-Green and the drivers were not local men, and a bomb-scare closed Kingsway and Aldwych. The driver didn't know where to go; fortunately I was standing by the cab, and I directed him via Shaftsbury Avenue, Trafalgar Square, Whitehall, Westminster Bridge and around by County Hall to Waterloo.

I've driven the 168. Of course rail replacement vehicles will have a better chance of matching the train out of London and where line speeds are in the 70 mph range (Cornwall and the highlands of Scotland for example).

Some tocs specify double decker vehicles which are usually buses. The B9TL I drove was fine in town but quite slow to accelerate once on dual carriageways and needed a downhill gradient to achieve its limited speed of 62 mph. A coach would have been nicer although still limited to the same speed.

 

[DeeGee]

Incidentally, as a possible point of interest, passengers missing trains in West Wales, especially at Llanelli, today due to rail replacement busses having been heavily delayed as a result of road closures and congestion brought about by the Llanelli Half Marathon

Which has probably been planned and publicised for a lot longer than the engineering works.

 

[pjnathanail]

Which has probably been planned and publicised for a lot longer than the engineering works.

Doubtful given engineering works are planned around 3 years in advance, and certainly publisised for a minimum of 12 weeks before travel - in many occasions much further in advance.

 

[RJ]

The Kingston loop from Wimbledon to Richmond, another route I've had to do by bus, is considerably less complicated, and is not greatly slower than the train. However, the obvious route (on a map) from Norbiton to Kingston goes under a low bridge, and conspicuous signs are put up at Norbiton warning drivers of this. Nonetheless, some time back one driver didn't take note, and his bus managed to hit the bridge.

I usually drive the New Malden to Twickenham rail replacements when the line is down. Norbiton is my least favourite part of the route as the forecourt can be a bit of a farce with people parking outside the Sainsbury's local. It also involves reversals and three point turns, as well as the negotiation of narrow roads. Some drivers reportedly skip Teddington and Strawberry Hill because it's too difficult for them :roll:. There was an incident with a driver crashing a bus into that bridge at Norbiton on the first weekend in January this year, reportedly a contributory factor to that operator's removal from the contract to operate that route for the next few weekends.

I also drive Clapham Junction to Surbiton (via Wimbledon), Clapham Junction to Twickenham (via Richmond) and occasionally Barnes to Feltham via Hounslow. The running times are the same throughout the day - barely enough with the daytime traffic, but lots of slack in the evenings. I tend to hang on at the bus stops until 30 seconds after the scheduled time. The fun thing about these routes is that improvisation is often required due to roadworks or plant machines blocking level crossings at Mortlake or North Sheen.

I find that I'm always overtaking other buses on high frequency rail replacements. I overtook around 5 buses in one trip when I did Tower Hill to Barking the other week. Some drivers don't know where they're going. When I catch up with a pair of buses, it's because one is following the other, which slows both of them down. I overtake them when I see this happening. The official route between Stratford and Upton Park (via Plashet Grove) had abysmal traffic management which impacted on the service. It's a mystery why Romford Road and Green Street aren't used instead.

Sometimes the time difference can be horrendous. I remember when I drove Hammersmith to Northfields. TfL brand it as a Picadilly Line replacement, although it's actually all District Line stops to Ealing Broadway then straight to Northfields. Hammersmith to Ravenscourt Park takes 1 minute on the Underground, but took 40 minutes on that day due to roadworks hock:. I don't know how people cope with driving in inner London, all of the weekend LU replacements I do seem to involve sitting in gridlock for substantial periods of time! I think I preferred driving routes like Finchley Road to Canons Park (via the Northern Line Golders Green to Edgware) and Wembley Park to Northwood. Wimbeldon to Hammersmith isn't too bad either.

 

[DeeGee]

Which has probably been planned and publicised for a lot longer than the engineering works.

Doubtful given engineering works are planned around 3 years in advance, and certainly publisised for a minimum of 12 weeks before travel - in many occasions much further in advance.

Whereas the half marathon has been that particular weekend since only 2011 at least, and I can already enter 2016's event. It really shouldn't shouldn't have been a surprise and would have been better for the runners and the local community if the line was open. What with road closures and stuff.

Joined up thinking and all that.

Unless, of course the race crossed a level crossing and therefore depended on the railway being closed.

 

[RJ]

I've found RRB's in South London to be more a game of Pot Luck.

Yesterday, it took 25 mins to get from Forest Hill to New Cross Gate. This was due to a combination of traffic in Forest Hill and Brockley, pax asking the driver questions which held up the service and the sheer wait of unloading and boarding passengers.

Whenever I board the Tube RRB's, these are marshalled with a person at every stop ensuring calling the name of the station and to answer customer enquiries.

The Southern RRB I endured yesterday boarded on a farce, which even included the driver stopping at another bus stop to the one planned between Southern and LOROL!

Apparently, someone else witnessed a driver skipping Honor Oak Park.

I'm doing a late turn on Clapham Junction to Canada Water on Sunday. 69 minutes running time hock:. It's a half hourly service too, so I imagine it will be 10-15mph running the whole way!

 

[Dr_Paul]

I usually drive the New Malden to Twickenham rail replacements when the line is down... Some drivers reportedly skip Teddington and Strawberry Hill because it's too difficult for them...

I also drive Clapham Junction to Surbiton (via Wimbledon), Clapham Junction to Twickenham (via Richmond) and occasionally Barnes to Feltham via Hounslow. The running times are the same throughout the day - barely enough with the daytime traffic, but lots of slack in the evenings. I tend to hang on at the bus stops until 30 seconds after the scheduled time. The fun thing about these routes is that improvisation is often required due to roadworks or plant machines blocking level crossings at Mortlake or North Sheen.

Strawberry Hill, North Sheen and Mortlake stations are not on any regular bus routes, and there is nowhere the replacement buses can conveniently stop outside them without causing a jam, as the roads are quite narrow, with the possible exception of Mortlake, which has a tiny forecourt. There are bus stands a few hundred yards from North Sheen (in the old coal-yard by the Gasworks Bridge), but it's a fair step from the station.

At Richmond, there are so many buses on regular routes that if the District/NLL or the South-Western -- or even better, if both of them -- have PW work, the road around the station gets completely clogged up. The council hasn't improved things by recently narrowing the road by turning the bus lane into a taxi-rank.