Why are rail fares so expensive when compared to other countries?

[Zoe]

Most off peak returns in the UK are not THAT badly priced.

I'm not sure about that, on quite a few intercity journeys even the off peak fare is getting to be unaffordable and is quite a bit more than it was a few years back when Super Saver tickets were available. It may well be that outside these intercity routes though Off Peak fares are much more reasonable. For example I no longer make day trips to London as I can't plan in advance and the walk-up fare is too expensive. Of course it could be argued that a few years back the cost of walk-up travel was too cheap and that the current fares better reflect the cost of running the railway and so reduced the burden on the taxpayer although that is not my opinion. Government police though is still to allow these fares to be increased by above inflation so they are only going to get more unaffordable in the long term.

 

[northwichcat]

Most off peak returns in the UK are not THAT badly priced.

Are you referring to all off peak returns or just the day returns or the former savers?

Some routes don't have Off Peak Day Returns despite having Anytime Day Returns - Knutsford to West Kirby for instance. Yes splitting at Chester is the answer here but to the person who hasn't researched ticket options they have to pay peak fare all day

 

[mikeg]

• Higher frequency than almost anywhere else in Europe. In Germany I had to wait over an hour and a half for a connection, this was between a well used intercity line and a relatively well used local service. In the Czech Republic there was a long wait at Ostrava between two intercity services.
• Lower subsidy than other high frequency nations
• Nicer, newer rolling stock - Czech republic was dirt cheap but made up of rolling stock from the 70s and earlier - one intercity train still had the old style compartments and narrow corridors, the last refurb done on one intercity train was in 1997 according to the notice! The compartment train appeared not to have been refurbed at all. Ancient trains seemed the norm even on well used lines in Italy too.
• Slow - again using my Czech Republic example services were much, much slower than in the UK
• Except for the Pendelino, which (I didn't understand the tickets as I don't speak Czech and my friend ordered) cost more to use and had compulsory reservations
• Better train presentation in the UK - trains were grotty and unclean in the Czech Republic
• Germany's pricing last time I used it (Deutsche Bahn from Hannover to Hamburg and Veolia Nordostseebahn from Hamburg to Itzehoe) was similar price-wise to ours but included VAT. This was on a single, where there was a significant discount compared with a return, a return would have been more expensive than a walk-on ticket here.
• Absence of period returns in some countries (the Netherlands only appeared to offer day returns last time I was there so I had to buy two singles from Schiphol to Rotterdam and back), so any comparison would be between singles here - ours are a rip-off as they're nearly the price of a return, the Netherlands are cheap, but once you need to make a return journey on a different day their fares become expensive
• Separation between train operation, train ownership and infrastructure has caused increased costs
• In the Czech Republic, rail user numbers were falling when I used the train, CzD had to be bailed out with a subsidy later that year I believe (normally Czech services have little subsidy), here passenger numbers are booming
• Nicer first class offering in most areas - in the Netherlands there was almost no difference between first and second class, but in Germany first class was reasonably priced and there was a difference (too bad I couldn't try it - a coach company was paying as my coach from Hannover airport to Wacken didn't arrive!)
• Advances - I read in the Financial Times that the cheapest per mile ticket in Europe is available in - the UK! In Germany savings of around 30% were being advertised in 2008 if I remember correctly, and advances were non-existant in the Netherlands.
• Better local services. In France Esk Valley Line style services seem to be the norm in (some) rural areas. Here you seem to get at least a two-hourly service and trains often run on Sundays. These are the services that require the most subsidy, too.
• Better disabled accessibility - Pacers aside, almost all trains are accessible in the UK, staff will take every step to ensure a disabled passenger can make his or her journey if given enough notice. In the Czech Republic most trains were non accessible: Narrow aisles not suitable for wheelchairs, steps up to trains (from the track which we had to walk across at one station!), slam doors seem to be the norm.
• Good punctuality in the UK. Everyone likes to moan about this here but in the Czech Republic and Germany punctuality seemed worse - the figures backed me up when I looked up Deutsche Bahn's PPM in 2008 compared to our TOCs' PPM, I don't have the Czech figures to hand. Only place it seemed better was the Netherlands.

So are our rail fares so expensive? Well yes, very, but they're also not bad value for money. We pay more, we get more. Only the vertical disintegration point is really a negative. I may not be entirely accurate - pricing comparisons were made by looking at the distance places appear on a map so are only guesstimates. I'm especially not sure about the Czech Republic pricing as a friend bought the tickets but I do remember paying more and receiving a reservation slip (for almost immediate travel) on the Pendolino going out than on the way back. Most of this was just made using the encounters an average tourist would make, rather than through the eyes of a rail enthusiast - I haven't been bashing abroad.

 

[northwichcat]

• Higher frequency than almost anywhere else in Europe. In Germany I had to wait over an hour and a half for a connection, this was between a well used intercity line and a relatively well used local service. In the Czech Republic there was a long wait at Ostrava between two intercity services.

• 
  
  German S-Bahn systems are more frequent than commuter services in England outside London. Merseyrail's every 15 minutes on most lines looks frequent to us but infrequent compared to S-Bahn.

 

[Zoe]

German S-Bahn systems are more frequent than commuter services in England outside London. Merseyrail's every 15 minutes on most lines looks frequent to us but infrequent compared to S-Bahn.

What are the commuter services into smaller cities like though? In Britain it can be as low as one train per hour.

 

[mikeg]

True, I wasn't really thinking of commuter services but the picture as a whole. Having used the S-bahn before I was impressed with the frequency. Our intercity frequencies are hard to beat though.

 

[Zoe]

True, I wasn't really thinking of commuter services but the picture as a whole. Having used the S-bahn before I was impressed with the frequency. Our intercity frequencies are hard to beat though.

Having high frequencies is all very well but it's not as helpful as it could be when you have to book in advance to be able to afford to use them.

 

[radamfi]

German S-Bahn frequencies can be hourly or half hourly at the extremes of the network but typically several routes combine to provide a frequent service through the core of the network. And one major difference is that Sunday frequencies are normally the same as weekday.

 

[Zoe]

And one major difference is that Sunday frequencies are normally the same as weekday.

What's interesting about this is that in Germany shops stay closed on Sunday and yet a more intense service is provided.

 

[bnm]

There's a simple solution I can offer to anyone who really believes that the grass is always greener on the other side.

Move to that other side.

It is extremely difficult to compare objectively. Comparisons are nearly always based on anecdotal evidence with narrow frames of reference.

The thread title is also misleading. What countries are we to compare with? Topics like this crop up with some regularity and none have anything more than opinion in the responses.

Is there any cold hard statistical data out there that accurately compares rail fares in the UK with other countries across the globe?

Oh and don't forget to account for average wages and GDP.

 

[WestCoast]

[*] Good punctuality in the UK. Everyone likes to moan about this here but in the Czech Republic and Germany punctuality seemed worse - the figures backed me up when I looked up Deutsche Bahn's PPM in 2008 compared to our TOCs' PPM, I don't have the Czech figures to hand. Only place it seemed better was the Netherlands.
[/LIST]

Well, DB has this year started to publish monthly statistics on punctuality:

August figures for overall traffic

5 min Pü (up to 5:59 min late) - 93.2%
15 min Pü (up to 15:59 min late) - 98.6 %

Figures for long-distance services were poorer though:
5 min Pü (up to 5:59 min late) - 81.9%
15 min Pü (up to 15:59 min late) - 93.2%

 

[mikeg]

Okay so they're obviously better than ours now. I concede that point.

 

[WestCoast]

Okay so they're obviously better than ours now. I concede that point.

I wouldn't say they were better, they just aren't significantly worse. People expect DB to be very punctual - it's a stereotypical cultural thing. I haven't found frequency to be less than the UK either. In fact I'd say the Netherlands in particular has very frequent rail services - almost 'metro like' on some corridors.

The one thing that your evidence doesn't take into account is the fact that DB sells an annual ticket for 3,800 euros for almost unlimited travel. That's the big issue here, what does it cost to commute? Not how much is a single ticket from X to X in each country, which is pretty meaningless. DB also offer some brilliant deals - up to five adults can travel around the country on regional trains for 39 euros on a Saturday or Sunday.

The DB figures for punctuality are recorded differently though, with timings at intermediate stations also being used.

How the punctuality survey is compiled
The displayed percentages reflect the percentage of punctual stops at all intermediate stations and end stations. A train stop is assessed to be punctual when the actual arrival time is less than 6 or 16 minutes later than its scheduled arrival time.
The statistics are compiled from 800,000 journeys of German Rail passenger trains in a month. All stops of the more than 20,000 monthly long distance journeys are included in the punctuality survey.
The punctuality data of 780,000 local trains movements in a month are derived from a representative sample of hundreds of measuring points at important junctions. These local trains include S-Bahn . This is agreed with the transport agencies of the federal states in its transport contract. From January 2012 the DB will fully record all the stops.

I'll be honest and say I don't know precisely how punctuality is recorded in the UK!
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Oh and don't forget to account for average wages and GDP.

Which is why comparisons with a lot of Eastern European states are effectively meaningless.
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There's a simple solution I can offer to anyone who really believes that the grass is always greener on the other side.

Move to that other side.

It is extremely difficult to compare objectively. Comparisons are nearly always based on anecdotal evidence with narrow frames of reference.

I agree with you 100% on this one. I am a regular user of UK trains and DB/NS services (due to family living there) and a lot of the comparison figures I see are meaningless - it's not like for like. Many of these networks offer so many incentives for regular commuters so looking at standard fares is useless. Does a foreign tourists travelling in Britain always secure the cheapest ticket for their journey?

 

[gordonthemoron]

as bnm says, to properly consider the difference you need to live there.

In general I prefer Germany, although it's nice to be able to get a cheap advance when I'm back in the UK and not too difficult. One thing against DB is the horrendous overcrowding, i.e. 16 coach ICEs standing room only in both classes

 

[radamfi]

The DB figures for punctuality are recorded differently though, with timings at intermediate stations also being used.

Also they wait for connections which must make it harder to meet punctuality targets.

 

[WestCoast]

One thing against DB is the horrendous overcrowding, i.e. 16 coach ICEs standing room only in both classes

I don't know what your experience is, but I've always found ICs and ICEs to have the highest level of overcrowding. Never found the RE/RB services to be quite as bad - although they are mostly double deckers in NRW.

NS services can be very crowded too. Evening peak out of Amsterdam Centraal with packed 12 coach double deckers (so effectively 24 coaches!).

I suppose the beauty of offering more advance fares is the ability to have greater control over loadings and to minimise large passenger loads by restricting advance purchase tickets on certain journeys.

 

[dzug2]

Also they wait for connections.

some of the time

 

[WestCoast]

some of the time

To be fair, only the really key connections can be held/waited for, otherwise the timetable would have to be shredded!

 

[sheff1]

The thread title is also misleading. What countries are we to compare with? Topics like this crop up with some regularity and none have anything more than opinion in the responses.

Is there any cold hard statistical data out there that accurately compares rail fares in the UK with other countries across the globe?

Oh and don't forget to account for average wages and GDP.

If there is hard statistical data I would like to see it. Without it I can only offer an opinion. Based on the two countries I travel in regularly, I feel ripped off whenever I have to pay the full long distance fare in the UK (although fortunately that is rare due to availabilty of splits and Routeing Guide anomalies to those in the know) but do not feel the same in Germany. I also believe the average wage/GDP is higher in Germany but stand to be corrected.

The key difference for me is that, were I living in Germany, I could get an annual ticket for the whole country at a cost of €3990 (2nd class) or €6690 (1st class). There is nothing remotely comparable available in the UK. A Sheffield - London annual alone would cost £9240 (standard) or £16200 (1st)

 

[Flamingo]

Is there any cold hard statistical data out there that accurately compares rail fares in the UK with other countries across the globe?

Oh and don't forget to account for average wages and GDP.

The other thing to add in is the level of government subsidy given in each country, as that is money indirectly paid by every taxpayer.

The running costs of each railway compared with how many miles infrastructure and train seats available, also number of passenger journeys would also help provide a help for cost comparisons.