Why are Northern Ireland services to basic?

[thenorthern]

The other day I was looking at the Northern Ireland timetable and it struck me on how basic and infrequent their services are compared to Great Britain with many of the Intercity routes such as Belfast to Londonderry only operating every two hours and also only 9 trains per day between Belfast and Dublin and it also seems so easy to close a railway line there compared to GB.

Does anyone know why this is?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Belfast-Londonderry goes hourly from 2017 (I think, it's been messed about with a few times now) when a loop is installed somewhere to enable it. It's still hourly from Belfast-Coleraine though, which serves a lot of decent-sized settlements like Antrim and Ballymena.

I think a lot of the frequencies elsewhere on the network are just about correct though - 2tph to each of Portadown, Bangor and Carrick (with 1tph to Larne) from Belfast, and hourly Coleraine-Portrush (half of which run through from Belfast). I'm not sure what you'd deem more appropriate?

A problem which faces the Londonderry route however is that in a lot of cases driving is simply far quicker. Look at the train's route: it goes far, far out of the way of the direction of Londonderry to serve places in Co. Antrim and across the north coast into Co. Londonderry. The road journey equivalent takes you direct over the (beautiful) Glenshane Pass and across the top of Lough Neagh, which can be done in about 90 mins. Using the same route Londonderry-Antrim takes an hour and 10 mins. The trains's times are to Belfast in 2h05 and Antrim in 1h40.

Enterprise is largely the same - driving is far quicker, even over the full course of the route. Whilst the likes of Portadown and Newry are serves in NI, for people in the likes of Co. Tyrone and Fermanagh it is just quicker to stick on the A roads all the way there than cut across to Portadown etc to use the train. It also isn't helped by the fact it gets practically no priority around Dublin, so it can often crawl the last handful of miles from Howth Jn, ditto northbound. Improvements have been sought over the years but as it's a 50:50 operation between the North and Republic no-one seems to want to take control of the matter and sort it out. Belfast-Dublin has an average speed of about 45mph on Enterprise. Says it all really.

 

[edwin_m]

A quick google gives a population of Northern Ireland of about 1.8 million. That's about the same as Nottinghamsire plus Derbyshire. Now imagine those two counties (or some other area with a similar population) were separated from the rest of the network and think about how many internal train services they would have. The result probably isn't too much different from the NI internal network. Public transport, and particularly rail services, depends strongly on the density and distribution of population.

This does of course exclude the Enterprise. Belfast and Dublin being in different countries means the travel market between them is much smaller than for city pairs of comparable size and separation with no international border, plus as mentioned the train is relatively slow and infrequent. I heard somewhere that the rail market share is comparable to other flows in Ireland, it is just that the total market is smaller.

 

[yorksrob]

it also seems so easy to close a railway line there compared to GB.

Is this necessarily true ? I was under the impression that the railway "network" in NI has been fairly stable since the Beeching era, although it's worth remembering that NI has been devolved for a lot longer than anywhere else in the country, so this might be a source of legislative differences.

 

[thenorthern]

Is this necessarily true ? I was under the impression that the railway "network" in NI has been fairly stable since the Beeching era, although it's worth remembering that NI has been devolved for a lot longer than anywhere else in the country, so this might be a source of legislative differences.

There have been I think about 5 stations closed since 2000 I think which is about the same as the whole of GB in the same time frame.

 

[yorksrob]

There have been I think about 5 stations closed since 2000 I think which is about the same as the whole of GB in the same time frame.

Goodness. I'm surprised they haven't kicked up more of a fuss !

 

[MidnightFlyer]

There have been I think about 5 stations closed since 2000 I think which is about the same as the whole of GB in the same time frame.

All five were related to one line however: (Belfast)-Crumlin-(Antrim). Four were on the actual line, which was used by trains between Belfast and Antrim. This closed when the new line from Bleach Green reopened along with two new stations and the provision for a third. The other closure was Knockmore, an unusual station in that its southbound platform was on the Portadown line but its northbound platform was on the Crumlin line. The reopened line via Bleach Green gives much faster journey times IIRC and also improves connectivity from the Antrim, Coleraine et al to Larne and Bangor.

 

[thenorthern]

All five were related to one line however: (Belfast)-Crumlin-(Antrim). Four were on the actual line, which was used by trains between Belfast and Antrim. This closed when the new line from Bleach Green reopened along with two new stations and the provision for a third. The other closure was Knockmore, an unusual station in that its southbound platform was on the Portadown line but its northbound platform was on the Crumlin line. The reopened line via Bleach Green gives much faster journey times IIRC and also improves connectivity from the Antrim, Coleraine et al to Larne and Bangor.

Indeed they were but imagine if Network Rail wanted to close a similar size line the DFT would be up in arms about it.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Indeed they were but imagine if Network Rail wanted to close a similar size line the DFT would be up in arms about it.

Indeed, I don't necessarily always think that's a good thing however. One point should be made though (and this also applies to the likes of Mullingar-Athlone and Limerick-Atherney in the Republic) is that there is a tendency over there to mothball and not close fully, as is the case with the line via Crumlin. It's been used for diversions as recently as last year, so any future reopening to local traffic isn't as complex as full-blown closure. There are already proposals locally to reopen Knockmore IIRC. In Britain there is (or was at least) a bad habit of closing lines then selling off the land as quickly as possible and as such in a lot of cases meaning future reopening is already very unlikely; unlike Ireland.

 

[CallySleeper]

Regarding the OP. I've visited NI (and ROI) numerous times over the last few years, including living in Belfast for a year. I'm not sure about calling the NIR service "basic". I think you have to be aware of the size of the network, and the population (and thus the demand) it is serving, both of which are of nothing like the scale you have on the mainland.

On the mainland, I enjoy travelling by rail, partly because I believe in frequency and journey time comparative to other modes of transport. Whereas in Ireland, north and south, I tend to prefer coach travel, which can be a lot more extensive, frequent and reasonably priced. Take the Londonderry line as an example. The train takes 2-3 hours for the full length, only 2tph Mon - Sat. The 212 (express coach service), takes less than 2 hours, runs every 15 mins in the peaks. Even on shorter journeys, for example Belfast - Ballymena. The 218/9 runs every half hour during the day, and does not take much longer than the train - actually similar times in the peak-time fast services. It also serves parts of Belfast which you would have a decent walk to from the train stations. The coach can also be half the price of the equivalent train ticket.

Take Belfast - Dublin. The X1/2 runs hourly 24/7. Some coaches serve only Dublin Airport on the whole journey, and too are a lot faster than the train. In the past, I've done the ~100 mile journey in <2 hours. A lot better service when you compare it to the train. While the X1/2 is a joint operation between Translink and Bus Eireann, politics may well have had an impact on the upkeep of the rail service.

Similarly, in the south, (in the past) I would have usually favoured coach travel over train, although I believe rail travel has improved over recent years.

Really, you have to understand that in NI, everyone who can, drives. Driving is the most common form of transport. It might be a vicious circle... public transport is not as good so everyone drives, so public transport use isn't as high. In some more rural parts of the country, especially out in the west where the rail network doesn't reach, really the car is the only method of getting about. The car can be the only means to being independent... as any young adult will probably tell you.

That said, however, the local bus network in Belfast City is really very good.

 

[thenorthern]

The Metro in Belfast is very good yes, and the Belfast suburban trains are relatively useful the few times I have used them.

 

[30907]

I'm no expert on Ireland, but a little bit of history is relevant:
the Ulster Transport Authority (thus called!) drastically thinned out rail services in NI in the 50's and became (if it wasn't already) very bus-orientated, to the point that services to Derry and Dublin survived for political reasons as much as anything.

Things have therefore have recovered from a VERY low point - I seem to recall that there was considerable hesitation before the BR-based DEMUs of the 70's and 80's were ordered.

 

[PFX]

Whiile the network may appear sparse to those living in the UK, the recent investment in rolling stock has seen a huge increase in passenger numbers over the last couple of years. On some of the services where train lengths have been doubled, this spare capacity has already by used up.

Similarly, numbers have increased dramatically on Enterprise services too, following the negative impact of the Broadmeadow viaduct collapse, and the Regional Development minister has announced his intention to spend £12 million on refurbishing the DD stock used on the service (subject to Executive approval).

The network itself has also received substantial upgrade works though a recent public consultation document has indicated the cost to extend the network in any way is prohibitive. Unlike the UK, when lines were closed by what can only be described as a vehemently anti rail NI government of the day (with a shameless pro-road agenda) the track was lifted almost imediately and the track bed sold off. That makes reinstatement all the more costly.

 

[BurtonM]

I have one point to make about NIR.
They had some trains very similar to our 150s - built at the same time, in the same place.
They were considered life expired and all scrapped in the last couple of years. Okay, so they had refurbished Mk1 chassis, but if they consider such a train life expired on a network of that size, why don't we?

 

[thenorthern]

The 5'3'' gauge is a a major disadvantage today in my opinion as it means NI railways can't swap stock with Great Britain or add additional trains to GB orders and it means trains have to be built to a gauge not used anywhere else in Europe which must add to the cost.

 

[Yew]

The 5'3'' gauge is a a major disadvantage today in my opinion as it means NI railways can't swap stock with Great Britain or add additional trains to GB orders and it means trains have to be built to a gauge not used anywhere else in Europe which must add to the cost.

Trains can be modified relatively easily to 5'3, depending on the design

 

[PFX]

The 5'3'' gauge is a a major disadvantage today in my opinion as it means NI railways can't swap stock with Great Britain or add additional trains to GB orders and it means trains have to be built to a gauge not used anywhere else in Europe which must add to the cost.

You're foregetting the ex-Gatwicks NIR bought from BR. Or the BREL Internationals IR bought from BR. Gauge isn't as much a disadvantage as loading gauge.

 

[Con]

The 5'3'' gauge is a a major disadvantage today in my opinion as it means NI railways can't swap stock with Great Britain or add additional trains to GB orders and it means trains have to be built to a gauge not used anywhere else in Europe which must add to the cost.

It's just the bogies that are different. The loading gauge is marginally wider than in Britain, but the only trains that were built to that in recent years were the DART trains in Dublin AFAIK.

 

[starrymarkb]

I have one point to make about NIR.
They had some trains very similar to our 150s - built at the same time, in the same place.
They were considered life expired and all scrapped in the last couple of years. Okay, so they had refurbished Mk1 chassis, but if they consider such a train life expired on a network of that size, why don't we?

IIRC the 450 DEMUs were just rebodies, they still had the original engine transmission and chassis, similar to the 442s (though those just reused electrical kit) - while the bodies were in decent condition, everything else was life expired.*

Also there were only 8 of them, so taking a small fleet with aging engines/transmissions so it's probably cheaper in the long run to have a standard CAF fleet before they become a maintenance headache.

*Something similar was considered in the late 1990s/early 2000s with the Class 424. This was a plan to rebody Southern Slam Door units with a 357 bodyshell, ultimately the decision was taken to go all new

 

[euryalus]

The 5'3'' gauge is a a major disadvantage today in my opinion as it means NI railways can't swap stock with Great Britain or add additional trains to GB orders and it means trains have to be built to a gauge not used anywhere else in Europe which must add to the cost.

The LMS "swapped stock" with the mainland during World War Two when a large number of passenger vehicles were destroyed in an air raid on Belfast - they simply changed the bogies.

 

[PFX]

I have one point to make about NIR.
They had some trains very similar to our 150s - built at the same time, in the same place.
They were considered life expired and all scrapped in the last couple of years. Okay, so they had refurbished Mk1 chassis, but if they consider such a train life expired on a network of that size, why don't we?

The engines and traction motors in the 450s were salvaged from the 70 class units they replaced and reconditioned (plus one set from an 80 class) so the 'hearts' of these units were approaching 50 years old on withdrawal. The oldest of the BR 150s would be around 30 now so theoretically, another 20 years in them yet? That's rhetorical ; )

 

[feline1]

I'm no expert on Ireland, but a little bit of history is relevant:
the Ulster Transport Authority (thus called!) drastically thinned out rail services in NI in the 50's and became (if it wasn't already) very bus-orientated, to the point that services to Derry and Dublin survived for political reasons as much as anything.

Indeed, although any analysis cannot really get away from seeing that the rail closures were political (or some might say 'sectarian') too: post WWII, Northern Ireland was controlled by a regional Unionist government in Stormont, that was extremely partisan it dealt with Protestant versus Catholic communities. Any infrastructure in 'catholic areas' was generally run down, and particularly any infrastructure which could be seen as part of a single-island-of-Ireland: so any cross-border regional lines were for the chop.
The Irish govt in Dublin protested but only managed to get the Dublin - Belfast line kept open.

The Stormont govt also closed the remaining canals, and put all their cash into motorways (motorways which, again, went to places where protestants lived, not to where catholics lived... and *certainly* not across the border to the Republic!)

As everyone will no doubt be well aware, the Stormont government's sectarian policies led to widespread civil unrest by the end of the 1960s, mushrooming into 3 more decades of terrorist violence (and several train lines blown up!)
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Really, you have to understand that in NI, everyone who can, drives. Driving is the most common form of transport. It might be a vicious circle... public transport is not as good so everyone drives, so public transport use isn't as high. In some more rural parts of the country, especially out in the west where the rail network doesn't reach, really the car is the only method of getting about. .

It is *totally* a vicious circle. But it is also daft, as in the end, road transport corridors into Belfast became so clogged that, my the start of the 1990s, I remember it taking over 1½ hours to get home from school on the bus (6 miles from Belfast city centre south to Carryduff) nose to tail traffic the entire way.... it had got to the point where it was quicker to walk!!

The most egregious flaw in the transport policy to my mind is the lack rail links to the airports. There is NO station at Belfast International, and indeed they closed the Antrim-Lisburn line that goes past it! And there's little more than a halt at Belfast City, with very poor links for foot passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you have to be aware of the size of the network, and the population (and thus the demand) it is serving, both of which are of nothing like the scale you have on the mainland.

You also have to be aware of how that population is distributed, and why they might be travelling in the first place. People commute to work (although most of Northern Ireland's jobs are in the public sector), and NornIrond still has the 11+ and grammar/secondary schools, with many thousands of kids commuting into big grammar schools in Belfast.


About 1/3rd of the population lives in the greater Belfast area (including ribbon development along the north and south foreshores of Belfast Lough - Banger, Newtonabbey, Carrickfergus... - and settlement further inland along the Lagan valley - Lisburn). These all act as dormitory towns for people commuting to work/study in Belfast.

There are indeed rail lines along both Lough foreshores and down into the Lagan Valley, so people can and do use them to commute.

However, there are NO rail lines AT ALL any more in counties Armagh, Fermanagh or Tyrone! So obviously none of their populations can commute anywhere by rail.

Commuting to (London/)Derry, and places in Antrim (Coleraine, Larne) is possible but people living there are less likely to commute to Belfast as there are some modicum of jobs in the aforementioned places, they are not really dormitory towns.

Partitioning Ireland meant that many of the towns and cities in the west of the north (Armagh, Derry, Enniskillen, Strabane, etc) that up until then had been market centres and places of employment had half their catchment areas (from counties Monaghan, Cavan, Leitrim and Donegal) lobotomised, and their rail lines scrapped. So people's reasons for travelling were changed.

Another reason for travel is of course for leisure and holiday, often involving airports - but as mentioned above, NI's airports don't have rail links (!)