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Why are new buses so slow?

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notadriver

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Every so often I visit a bus driver friend of mine and the company he works for buys new buses on a regular basis. But i've always felt that each newer model is slower than the last one. Why is there a trend for slower more eco friendly buses whilst newer trains are quicker than older models?
 
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starrymarkb

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I think you answered it with more eco friendly - it's the same in the airline industry, aircraft have been getting slower (and dialing back the engines as well) in order to save what is now pretty expensive fuel...
 

overthewater

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Stagecoach Darts from 2003 - 2006 moved like the WIND! but the E200, which has been said are more ecomonic in fuel etc.
 

notadriver

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StarrymarkB - I haven't been on a plane in years. Is it obviously slower as on the buses?
 

Ivo

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What you say is partly true, but not completely. Some newer models are actually pretty fast - it basically depends on whether they have a limiter fitted or not! Some older buses will struggle to clear 45, whereas some newer ones will easily go beyond 60. But the reverse is also true.

Two examples (note that the vehicle size is not consistent)...

I went on an Optare Solo several times on the same route over the Spring Bank Holiday. The slowest recorded top speed was 56, and on one occasion it cleared 60 - and even then, it had more to give, but ran out of road. Compare that to the Dennis Dominator, which often struggled to clear even 40 - and in the case of a certain batch of three that somehow found their way to Southend in roughly 2000, even that was a stretch.

On the other hand, Leyland Lynxes took off like Tornado planes, and would go well beyond 60 given the chance. My all time highest was 64, but given that was in a 50 area that was a bit naughty! (I never sampled one on a motorway.) By contrast, some newer buses are definitely underpowered, with Enviro 400s being an obvious example of this.
 
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I tend to find this as well. I use the bus to get back and forth from spotting. I always found that 56 reg Darts that were used would go like the clappers I always found the same with the old Merc "bone shakers" they would go around one corner on a route I would hang out the seat because of the speed they would go round it. I found this on the Alexander bodied Volvo's they would shift but when it came the double deckers that would put in a run they would crawl. The Vanhool coaches are the same I tend to think they seem to crawl but they would pick up on the motorway. The solos are quite fast I have had the pleasure of standing on one to Newport but they dont let you hang out the seat on the corner I said about. One bus I hate is the Wright bodied Volvos you feel all the bumps in the road on one and they arn't the best to be standing on either...
 

starrymarkb

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StarrymarkB - I haven't been on a plane in years. Is it obviously slower as on the buses?

It's probably more subtle. When setting an airliner up for flight the Pilots will be asked to input a 'Cost Index' this is a value from 0-1000 that influences the rate of climb, cruise speed, engine power etc. Higher cost index means you get there quicker, but burn more fuel... For Example, BA use '20' or '40', Easyjet use '12' and during a fuel price spike a couple of years ago they went down to '6'. Also with Easy (and possibly others) if the aircraft goes above Mach 0.8 then a message is sent automatically to dispatch and it will be a 'Please Explain' memo for the captain upon landing.

Also aircraft designs are getting slower, compare the B747 with the A380 or B777. The newer types are slower as fuel efficiency is more important then speed. IIRC the only type that has seen a speed increase is the B737 from the Classic to the NextGen models - mainly because the Classics couldn't compete with the far more advanced A320
 

High Dyke

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The question would be just as good with the word new removed :).
Hey... Don't knock it. In the mid 90s when YT Group transferred some ageing Leyland Leopards, and we're talking registrations from about 1977/78 (R or S), from Strathtay to Lincolnshire we had a couple that would give a decent turn of speed...though the ride wasn't particularly comfortable. :roll:

Then again the newest vehicles we had at our depot at the time were three Merc-bodied Optare Star-Riders which were brand new in 1991.
 
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notadriver

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Hmmm i see. Well i've been told to coast whenever running on time but I've not heard of anyone being punished for not doing so. I'm assuming with the aircraft that they still have full engine power if needed for whatever reason?
 

anthony263

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Some of Firsts Marshal bodied darts can be terrible for picking up speed but then you get one or two which really have a surge of power when pulling away.

That said I do agree a lot of the new buses can be very sluggish, mind you First Cymru's Optare Versa demonstrator is an example where this is not the case and is very quick
 

starrymarkb

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Hmmm i see. Well i've been told to coast whenever running on time but I've not heard of anyone being punished for not doing so. I'm assuming with the aircraft that they still have full engine power if needed for whatever reason?

Pretty much, it's mainly used by the autothrottle/autothrust systems, To get full power on a Boeing either press the Go-Around Button or Switch the AutoThrottle off and move the Throttle Lever manually. On the Airbus just move the Thrust Lever to the TOGA notch (Take Off Go Around) and Full Power will be available. (remembering to throttle back after 5 mins to avoid cooking the engine - in the 'bus there is a Max Continuous Thrust notch for longer periods)

Remember that each CFM56 burns about 1200 kg per hour (at £1.25ish per kg), so reducing that by 1-2% will have a big affect on the cost.
 

jon0844

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I think you answered it with more eco friendly - it's the same in the airline industry, aircraft have been getting slower (and dialing back the engines as well) in order to save what is now pretty expensive fuel...

So in the future, planes are going to go so slow that when I want to fly to Denmark from Stansted, the plane will slowly go down the runway, turn onto the A120 and head for Harwich and onto a ferry!
 

High Dyke

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Also with Easy (and possibly others) if the aircraft goes above Mach 0.8 then a message is sent automatically to dispatch and it will be a 'Please Explain' memo for the captain upon landing.
I would like to hope the explanation "Wanted enough power to keep airborne; didn't want to crash." should be sufficient. :|
 

notadriver

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So in the future, planes are going to go so slow that when I want to fly to Denmark from Stansted, the plane will slowly go down the runway, turn onto the A120 and head for Harwich and onto a ferry!

Might not be a plane might be an airship powered by solar panels lol ;)
 

SWTH

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Some of Firsts Marshal bodied darts can be terrible for picking up speed but then you get one or two which really have a surge of power when pulling away.

That said I do agree a lot of the new buses can be very sluggish, mind you First Cymru's Optare Versa demonstrator is an example where this is not the case and is very quick

Maintenance can play a large part - once a batch of vehicles get over a year old and have been subject to various bodges and quick fixes they'll all start to differ from one another. Yesterday I drove two buses that were built to exactly the same spec next to each other on the production line, but 4 years on are totally different to drive.

Engine/drivetrain spec is another area where there is huge scope for differences - a Mercedes OM904-powered Solo for example is a very slow machine, yet the same design with a Cummins ISB fitted is very quick. Gearboxes can also have a big effect - at Western Greyhound there were two different types of Trident, 4 fitted with a ZF 'box, 2 with a Voith 'box. The 5-speed ZF meant a top speed of between 50-60mph and reasonably quick progress, the 3-speed Voith meant a top speed of 48mph and an eternity to get there due to the wide spacing of the gear ratios.

I used to like an old Leyland Tiger (C262 SPC if anyone knows it) that I drove regularly. No limiter fitted as it was on local work only. I never did find out how fast it would really go, the numbers on the speedo stopped at 80mph, but the bus didn't. An upcoming roundabout put a stop on pushing any further than an estimated 85-87 (judging by speedo needle position).
 

starrymarkb

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I would like to hope the explanation "Wanted enough power to keep airborne; didn't want to crash." should be sufficient. :|

Well if you got to that point and the Airbus stall prevention kicked in it wouldn't be 'please explain' but meeting with the chief pilot without tea or biscuits.
 

Polarbear

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It may not be directly relevant, but padding in schedules can be an issue that results in perceived slow running.

The quality bus partnership between Chester & Liverpool is a case in point. Buses leave each end of the route at 10 minute intervals during the day on two routes that aren't quite equal in length. The result is padded schedules to make the timetable work like this & sometimes a lot of festering at bus stops waiting time after a slow plod along the rest of the route. :roll:
 

pompeyfan

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i disagree in general with the topic statement (question), the depot i operate out of has a mix of marshall & plaxton darts at around the P/R/S (with 3 X & V plates) mark, optare solos ranging from W - 05 plate, S & V plate Varios and 09 plate Volvo Ecplises, and i find the newer buses are much faster and smoother then the older buses, that's not to say there aren't any nice darts, and that's not to say there aren't any bad volvos, but in general i'm a fan of the new over the older.

P.S Gold star to the person who can identify the depot!
 

Ivo

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P.S Gold star to the person who can identify the depot!

Sounds like Hilsea to me - not that I've ever understood why so many buses there are so small. (Unless it only covers the northern fringe routes around Cosham and Paulsgrove such as the 12?)

But then this is more obvious that it could be given (a) you post in the SW thread occasionally and (b) your name is a bit of a giveaway! ;)
 

starrymarkb

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Engine/drivetrain spec is another area where there is huge scope for differences - a Mercedes OM904-powered Solo for example is a very slow machine, yet the same design with a Cummins ISB fitted is very quick. Gearboxes can also have a big effect - at Western Greyhound there were two different types of Trident, 4 fitted with a ZF 'box, 2 with a Voith 'box. The 5-speed ZF meant a top speed of between 50-60mph and reasonably quick progress, the 3-speed Voith meant a top speed of 48mph and an eternity to get there due to the wide spacing of the gear ratios.
.

Isn't the ISB a 6 pot? The Mercedes is a 4 cylinder (I think Versas and Tempos have the 906 - not that there were any in the area) I know there was also an uprated OM904 but not sure how common it is. I think the Stagecoach Exeter fleet might have it, I remember there being a bit about them being the first SlimSolos off the line - they also had an unusual 904944 engine numbering, which I don't recall seeing on anything else we saw (I used to work in the MB dealer so we'd get them in for Warranty work)
 

baza585

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i disagree in general with the topic statement (question), the depot i operate out of has a mix of marshall & plaxton darts at around the P/R/S (with 3 X & V plates) mark, optare solos ranging from W - 05 plate, S & V plate Varios and 09 plate Volvo Ecplises, and i find the newer buses are much faster and smoother then the older buses, that's not to say there aren't any nice darts, and that's not to say there aren't any bad volvos, but in general i'm a fan of the new over the older.

P.S Gold star to the person who can identify the depot!

Just off the A27 ramp at Hilsea by any chance!

Never mind you may hopefully have some nice Streetlites to play with soon!

Which minis have gone to Hoeford; presumably the worst of the Varios??
 

notadriver

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Well I can only go by what drivers have said about enviro 200s vs the Dart and the Enviro 400 Scania vs the Volvo Olympian. My friend was driving his B7TL and then his B9 and the B9 was gutless.
 

90019

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My personal experience is that the newer versions of buses are being strangled by the increasingly strict emissions regs.

Our best single decks are the 07 and 57 plate B7RLEs, which are properly quick. The newer ones are noticably slower, which is a total pain when you need to be able to pull away quickly, particularly at certain roundabouts. The ones I drove on the 49, there's two distinct flat spots in the performance - one right at the bottom of the rev range, as you're pulling away, then another further up. There's a bit of decent acceleration in between, but it's still nothing on the older buses.

I've only driven the deckers a couple of times, but the flat spots are very noticable on them, too.

at Western Greyhound there were two different types of Trident, 4 fitted with a ZF 'box, 2 with a Voith 'box. The 5-speed ZF meant a top speed of between 50-60mph and reasonably quick progress, the 3-speed Voith meant a top speed of 48mph and an eternity to get there due to the wide spacing of the gear ratios.

The majority of Lothian's fleet is Voith boxes, but there are two B7RLEs with ZF boxes, and the new B5Ls have Volvo's I-Shift box. (No idea what the Solos have).

The Voith 5 speed boxes are great, the ratios are long enough to get a decent speed out of them, but at the same time they're quite quick.
The I-Shift ones are also pretty good, as they're 12 speed but only go through the gears you need to - they're not the smoothest in the world being an automated manual rather than a proper automatic, but my only real criticism is that they very occasionally change up just when you don't want them to. It'll be interesting to see what they're like a few years down the line.

The ZF 6 speed boxes, on the other hand, are rubbish. I think they must be designed for small HGVs, as first and second are incredibly short - by the time you're at 10mph, you're already in third. The changes are also quite jerky, and mean the two buses are impossible to drive smoothly. They also seem to be quite dim, changing up and down at set points, regardless of how you're driving. What bugs me most about them is changing from fourth upwards - they accelerate alright, because they have good engines, but as soon as you're halfway through the green band on the rev counter, suddenly you change up, and there's a noticable drop in acceleration as it pulls you down out of the power band. It's incredibly frustrating heading out towards Ratho on the 12, where you get a good run along the A8.
 

JohnB57

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February 1981 and the memory of three interminable journeys delivering Olympians from Crossgates to Trans-Clyde in Glasgow at 46 mph maximum is with me after all these years. They were damned cold too. I can't believe that newer buses are slower than that...
 

BestWestern

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i disagree in general with the topic statement (question), the depot i operate out of has a mix of marshall & plaxton darts at around the P/R/S (with 3 X & V plates) mark, optare solos ranging from W - 05 plate, S & V plate Varios and 09 plate Volvo Ecplises, and i find the newer buses are much faster and smoother then the older buses, that's not to say there aren't any nice darts, and that's not to say there aren't any bad volvos, but in general i'm a fan of the new over the older.

P.S Gold star to the person who can identify the depot!

I bet 53151 is still as slow as hell?! :D ;)

Part of the problem, as discussed already in different threads, is that new engines are being increasingly suffocated by the EU's endless low emissions march. This has resulted in units which are using more fuel in order to achieve the same output, which is not good when the cost of that fuel is going up and up all the time. This goes hand in hand with the another EU crusade, the demand for every bus to be fully accessible, which adds literally tons to the weight of a vehicle that is already thirsty. It isn't a pretty picture, and operators have to encourage their drivers to save fuel and reduce costs. This is why systems like 'drive green' or whatever it's called have appeared, whereby the acceleration, braking and cornering of the vehicle is monitored and recorded to give a picture of the standard of driving. Drivers can then be 'graded' if their management so wish, depending on how 'green' their driving is. This may well explain why some buses make increasingly stately progress!
 

jopsuk

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How much of it is perception? Something that moves smoothly, with little gear change jerking, a quiet engine and riding smoothly will often seem slower than something moving at the same speed but that jerks at each gear change, roars and rattles its engine and bounces over the slightest road imperfection.

As for the sideline about aircraft, you have collectively of course laid out why Concorde no longers operates, why the TU-144 was never the success the Russians hoped for and why Boeing and Airbus have only ever done concept pictures of supersonic airliners. They know well how to build such things, there's just no way of making money from doing so...
 

theageofthetra

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I am sure the plane enthusiasts on here can elaborate more, but weren't most commercial airliners designed in the 60's/70's designed with a secondary (cold) war role in mind. I think I am correct in saying that the now ancient but still stunning VC10 still holds the record for the fastest commercial passenger plane other than Concorde/Concordeski? The groundbreaking B707 was first and foremost a millitary spec design & its development was heavily state funded. Fuel was of course much cheaper then though I do wonder how much of these aircrafts performance was designed with them being used as troop transports as were the commercial ocean liners a generation before. I firmly believe one of Concordes primary roles was to get a government/royalty out of a country very quick in the case of an imminent nuclear strike.
 

northwichcat

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Are there actually buses that had a top speed of say 60mph being replaced by buses with a top speed of say 56mph, or are we actually talking about newer buses being slower to accelerate?
 

notadriver

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For me it's buses that are now a lot slower to accelerate to save fuel. Whilst a good top speed is nice, I think it isn't as important due to the nature of service. There are exceptions of course.

A typical B9TL for example may have its
kickdown disabled and never revs much past 1200 rpm.

The contrast I make is with the rail industry. For example Chiltern's class 168 successor is the class 172 with more powerful engines and a new transmission to increase acceleration.
 
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