Why are heritage railways so inconsistent?

[Intercity110]

heritage railways seem unable to commit to a particular theme. Take for example the NLR (The northampton and lamport railway) It has 4 steam (2 operational, 2 under restoration) and 2 diesel (47205 and 31289) 47205 is in a sectorisation era livery, yet they’re repainting the coaches into blood and custard to suit the steam, which only come out a few weekends a year. Why is it like this?

 

[sprinterguy]

Because they're run by groups of individuals with differing aims and objectives, and often play host to independent owners of individual locomotives who have their own aims regarding the assets they own.

 

[DarloRich]

Why is it like this?

Why do you think it is like that? You haven't really set out a view. You don't even say if you think this is a good or bad thing.

 

[43066]

Heratige railways seem unable to commit to a particular theme. Take for example the NLR. It has 4 steam (2 operational, 2 under restoration) and 2 diesel (47205 and 31289) 47205 is in a sectorisation era livery yet they’re repainting the coaches into blood and custard to suit the steam, which only come out a few weekends a year. Why is it like this?

Are most heritage railways inconsistent?

I suspect for most - especially tiny ones like the NLR - it’s a combination of having to use what limited fit-to-run stock they have, and trying to appeal to the broadest possible market, especially at the moment when many are under existential threat.

Most people who attend won’t care whether the livery of the coaches is strictly correct for the loco pulling them or not. The enthusiasts are mostly there for the locos, and the families/day trippers are there for steam trains and won’t have a clue about whether the whole things hangs together as a theme or not.

 

[A0]

Heratige railways seem unable to commit to a particular theme. Take for example the NLR. It has 4 steam (2 operational, 2 under restoration) and 2 diesel (47205 and 31289) 47205 is in a sectorisation era livery yet they’re repainting the coaches into blood and custard to suit the steam, which only come out a few weekends a year. Why is it like this?

The Northampton & Lamport (NLR) is a relatively new heritage line. From pretty much nothing they've built their running line and secured stock in a couple of decades.

Some of the more established heritage lines have been in operation for more than twice as long, have been able to pick and choose the stock and create a line with a certain feel.

The other factor is the NLR may not own all the locos and an owner can choose to paint a loco in whatever livery they like - that's the benefit of being the owner.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

This is not a straightforward issue. It can be argued that if a ''heritage'' railway is to aspire to be a museum line it needs to give some idea of how buildings and stock looked at different periods.

 

[Titfield]

This is not a straightforward issue. It can be argued that if a ''heritage'' railway is to aspire to be a museum line it needs to give some idea of how buildings and stock looked at different periods.

If a Heritage Railway is a charity or has a charitable body as the parent then the aims of the charity will almost certainly include education about the history of the line, history of railways etc. Yet many make such a very poor attempt at explaining the history: why the line was built and by whom, the progression of the line over the years and then invariably decline and closure.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

If a Heritage Railway is a charity or has a charitable body as the parent then the aims of the charity will almost certainly include education about the history of the line, history of railways etc. Yet many make such a very poor attempt at explaining the history: why the line was built and by whom, the progression of the line over the years and then invariably decline and closure.

+1

 

[Intercity110]

Why do you think it is like that? You haven't really set out a view. You don't even say if you think this is a good or bad thing.

In my opinion it’s bad.

Are most heritage railways inconsistent?.

yes, take the great central railway, it has a 50 in NSE and a 37 in railfreight petroleum. Why can’t they have a rake of NSE or Inter-City mark 1s to pull about?

 

[JonathanH]

Why can’t they have a rake of NSE or Inter-City mark 1s to pull about?

Siding space and availability of rolling stock. You would soon complain if those NSE or Inter-City painted mark 1s were being hauled by a steam locomotive. Railways can't keep separate rakes of coaching stock to run behind specific locomotives.

There aren't going to be any more mark 1s built, so there is a finite amount of rolling stock for the heritage railways.

 

[43066]

yes, take the GCR, it has a 50 in NSE and a 37 in railfreight petroleum. Why can’t they have a rake of NSE or Inter-City mark 1s to pull about?

Thing is, if you’re focussed on total historical accuracy and consistency, even that wouldn’t really make sense as a theme. When did 50s ever run about with NSE rakes on the GCML (and why is the 50 there at all?!)? Same question for 37s hauling IC liveried mk1s.

Ultimately, like most heritage railways, they’re preserving and showcasing locos that will be of interest, and will need vaguely period rolling stock that is generic enough to be used with these and others.

Siding space and availability of rolling stock. You would soon complain if those NSE or Inter-City painted mark 1s were being hauled by a steam locomotive. Railways can't keep separate rakes of coaching stock to run behind specific locomotives.

Indeed.

 

[Intercity110]

Thing is, if you’re focussed on total historical accuracy and consistency, even that wouldn’t really make sense as a theme. When did 50s ever run about with NSE rakes on the GCML (and why is the 50 there at all?!)? Same question for 37s hauling IC liveried mk1s.

I’m not focused on total historical accruacy, i just want them to make sense, and the Inter-City mark 1s were used for railtours so at Some point they could’ve hauled them.

 

[John Webb]

And a number of Heritage Railways dress up their several stations to show different styles of decoration during the railway's history; the Keithley and Worth Valley is particularly noted for this. So whatever rake of coaches you have pulled by whatever loco it's always going to look out of place at one location or another!

The small museum I'm involved with had to take certain decisions about the restoration of our signal box with the result that the outside is restored to its 1950s BR (London Midland Region) appearance and the operating floor is back, as near as we can get it, to the late 1970s layout a year or two before closure. But we don't have the gas convector heaters that were in use then as they were disconnected and rusting to pieces when we first got into the box and would have taken up room where we wanted to seat visitors to watch our demonstrations.

So all railway preservation is a matter of compromise between the ideal and what can practically be achieved.

 

[43066]

I’m not focused on total historicsl accruacy, i just want them to make sense, and the Inter-City mark 1s were used for railtours so at Some point they could’ve hauled them.

In the end it’s a compromise, which is generally going to be generic mk1s hauled by whichever diesel/steam locos are serviceable.

Keep in mind that a lot of locos move about, so you’re never going to get an appropriately liveried rake at every location!

 

[EvanDMU]

In the end it’s a compromise, which is generally going to be generic mk1s hauled by whichever diesel/steam locos are serviceable.

Keep in mind that a lot of locos move about, so you’re never going to get an appropriately liveried rake at every location!

There are other less-obvious ways to be consistent, for instance the Midland Railway Butterley has a collection theme of ‘made in Derby’ so by that measure a Pacer operating alongside a Jinty is consistent.

 

[Titfield]

There are other less-obvious ways to be consistent, for instance the Midland Railway Butterley has a collection theme of ‘made in Derby’ so by that measure a Pacer operating alongside a Jinty is consistent.

To me the important points are (a) to actually have a sensible "theme" whether that is an era or a manufacturer (b) to stick to that theme (c) to explain that theme to the general public.

Yes there will always be compromises but if one takes the National Trust as a sort of benchmark they do seem to work very hard to minimise the visual compromises, keeping modern stuff either segregated or as low key as possible.

I just feel that so many heritage railways could do better and if they did it better than they would get more repeat custom. Beamish and the Black Country Museum at Dudley seem to me to be examples of how well something can be done.

As an example of simple things that can be done better why do so many heritage railways have a4 printed sheets laminated dotted around the place?

 

[Cowley]

I’m not focused on total historical accruacy, i just want them to make sense, and the Inter-City mark 1s were used for railtours so at Some point they could’ve hauled them.

A decent rake of mk1s is a huge and expensive to maintain asset that needs to be used all the time unless it’s out of action for servicing etc.

Maybe ask yourself this: If 95% of the income from the railway is bought in by the public turning up to ride on steam trains in a recreation of the post war era. What is this expensive asset likely to spend 95% of its time being hauled by?

Those nice 1980s liveried diesel locos are there because the railway is successful as a steam era recreation so they’ve been lucky in that sense to find a home. Take the steam locomotives and maroon/blood and custard mk1s away and the public who pay for the lines existence would soon start to drift away.

 

[43066]

To me the important points are (a) to actually have a sensible "theme" whether that is an era or a manufacturer (b) to stick to that theme (c) to explain that theme to the general public.

I suppose the more established railways do try to attempt that - eg the Bluebell and the K&ESR to name two I know very well but even, there you end up with several different themes in the case of the Bluebell; each station emulates a different era of the line’s history (and the less said about East Grinstead the better!).

It’s more difficult for the railways which are smaller/less well known/lack historical provenance (eg the East Kent). They have to rely more on being a tourist attraction.

Yes there will always be compromises but if one takes the National Trust as a sort of benchmark they do seem to work very hard to minimise the visual compromises, keeping modern stuff either segregated or as low key as possible.

The difference there is that, with NT properties, there’s a historical interest above and beyond the “thing” itself, whereas there generally isn’t with preserved railways, for many visitors.

The NT is also a very wealthy organisation, one of the UK’s largest landowners, with annual revenues in the high hundreds of millions; it’s on a completely different scale to heritage railways.

 

[Graham H]

Some do try but cant have every flavour. Worst case I witnessed was a WW2 event on the Watercress where so much effort goes in by re-enactors and then the railway runs 50027 Lion on its trains. I know mk1 were post war and the line only has a couple of Bulleids so thats excusable, but the choice of motive power was pretty lame. I was told it wasnt due to a steam failure just in case anyone suggests that

 

[12LDA28C]

In my opinion it’s bad.

yes, take the great central railway, it has a 50 in NSE and a 37 in railfreight petroleum. Why can’t they have a rake of NSE or Inter-City mark 1s to pull about?

Different generations of enthusiasts have differing opinions on what they want to see in preservation in terms of locos, liveries and stock. You're never going to please everyone. Add into that the fact that most of the coaching stock is usually owned by the railway and many of the locos themselves, especially diesels, are owned by preservation groups or individuals then you are bound to have various liveries / eras represented.

As a member of a diesel loco owning group myself, the liveries of our locos are determined by a democratic vote, which bears no relation to the livery of the stock at the railway which is in steam-era GWR chocolate and cream or blood and custard. That's the way it is.

 

[twpsaesneg]

To answer the OP's question

• At at least some Heritage Railways some or all of the coaching stock is owned by private owners or private groups, who as other posters have pointed out are the ones who have the say in what colour to paint them.
• If you've ever done any rolling stock painting (usually in non-preferable conditions such as at the end of a siding) the idea of having to mask up one of the more complex liveries and times that by multiple coaches' worth would fill you with dread!
• Paint isn't cheap - TR Williamson's BR Spec Paint used to cost upwards of £50 per tin dependent on colour when I last bought some getting on for 20 years ago - I dread to think what it would cost now.
• Most paying punters with their family go to ride on a steam train and don't really give two figs about the colour of the coaches; lined maroon or blood and custard are fairly good generic liveries that doesn't look out of place with most steam stock and early modernisation plan diesels.
• As has been said, usually storage space is at a premium, and multiple rakes of coaches cannot be stored on most heritage railways without difficulty. Similarly keeping on top of the required maintenance and exams for a large and diverse fleet of rolling stock would be more difficult.

If you've got strong views on colour etc, then I'd urge you to volunteer at your local heritage railway and maybe offer to fund and help with the repaint of some of the stock - I'm sure you'd get your hand bitten off!

 

[YorkshireBear]

To me the important points are (a) to actually have a sensible "theme" whether that is an era or a manufacturer (b) to stick to that theme (c) to explain that theme to the general public.

Yes there will always be compromises but if one takes the National Trust as a sort of benchmark they do seem to work very hard to minimise the visual compromises, keeping modern stuff either segregated or as low key as possible.

I just feel that so many heritage railways could do better and if they did it better than they would get more repeat custom. Beamish and the Black Country Museum at Dudley seem to me to be examples of how well something can be done.

As an example of simple things that can be done better why do so many heritage railways have a4 printed sheets laminated dotted around the place?

The colour of coaches on repeat custom will be minimal. Almost imperceptible in the grand scheme of things for most railways especially when compared to the cost. Most railways have a set of 2 of carriages so it can't beautifully match every loco.

 

[Deepgreen]

Some railways have a theme, others don't, but those that do are generally pretty consistent. The smaller ones generally cannot stretch to such a luxury, and run whatever they can muster to provide revenue. It is deceptively expensive (in volunteers' time as well as money) to maintain rolling stock, let alone repaint it. Most preserved railways, understandably, focus on steam where they can, as that is the real pull for non-enthusiasts as well as enthusiasts. Some may be able to lay on galas where modern-liveried diesels feature but matching coaches are very rarely available. In decades to come, some preserved lines will feature more modern scenes (after all Mk1s and older will only keep going for so long) but, for now, 1940s-1960s liveries are going to remain dominant I think. Main line steam rakes are more and more featuring post-Mk1 stock and that can surely only cascade to preserved lines.

 

[JonathanH]

In decades to come, some preserved lines will feature more modern scenes (after all Mk1s and older will only keep going for so long) but, for now, 1940s-1960s liveries are going to remain dominant I think.

Mark 1 carriages are fairly well understood, and can be fairly easily rebuilt, although there is obviously a cost issue. They are likely to remain the mainstay of the heritage sector, although there may be limited parts that are original. One significant issue over time will be wheelsets, rather than the coaches themselves.

 

[paul1609]

Mark 1 carriages are fairly well understood, and can be fairly easily rebuilt, although there is obviously a cost issue. They are likely to remain the mainstay of the heritage sector, although there may be limited parts that are original. One significant issue over time will be wheelsets, rather than the coaches themselves.

Don't think the wheel sets of MK1s will be a problem for the foreseeable future tbh. I think there's 3 companies worldwide that i know of that'll make new ones for you now. I can see in the future the railways clubbing together to buy a batch.

 

[rustbucket]

• If you've ever done any rolling stock painting (usually in non-preferable conditions such as at the end of a siding) the idea of having to mask up one of the more complex liveries and times that by multiple coaches' worth would fill you with dread!

NSE or Intercity would be a sod to try and paint & get the thin stripes masked evenly the length of the body whilst on a ladder / scaffold platform

BR Blue & Grey is a lot less masking

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2023 ==

• Paint isn't cheap - TR Williamson's BR Spec Paint used to cost upwards of £50 per tin dependent on colour when I last bought some getting on for 20 years ago - I dread to think what it would cost now.

Just short of £120 for a 5 litre tin now

 

[Alanko]

heritage railways seem unable to commit to a particular theme. Take for example the NLR (The northampton and lamport railway) It has 4 steam (2 operational, 2 under restoration) and 2 diesel (47205 and 31289) 47205 is in a sectorisation era livery, yet they’re repainting the coaches into blood and custard to suit the steam, which only come out a few weekends a year. Why is it like this?

Achieving a single theme would require a lot of agreement and coordination between the various interest groups that make up the ecosystem of a heritage railway.

I think the public expect maroon carriages (green or blood and custard also acceptable). I would love a railway with a pool of serviceable blue diesels (Bo'ness for example!!) to paint a few Mk1s in blue and grey to complete the pictures; their ball and their rules, however.

I've seen photos today of one of their good Mk1s getting stripped back to the crash pillars, with lots of metal replaced. The costs of maintaining a Mk1 have risen, much like everything else, so whoever chips in and mucks in dictates the livery!

 

[43066]

I think the public expect maroon carriages (green or blood and custard also acceptable). I would love a railway with a pool of serviceable blue diesels (Bo'ness for example!!) to paint a few Mk1s in blue and grey to complete the pictures; their ball and their rules, however.

95% of the public won’t care what colour the carriages are. They will just be taking little Johnny to see a steam train, to assuage his boredom during school holidays/weekends.

 

[SeanG]

The East Lancs Railway has a set of maroon and a set of blue/grey mk1s and they generally seem to match them up to the steam/diesel services

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

95% of the public won’t care what colour the carriages are. They will just be taking little Johnny to see a steam train, to assuage his boredom during school holidays/weekends.

Don't assume too much. I recall a young parent saying to her two year old ''look that's a real old carriage door". You don't have to be a gricer/foamer to recognise the genuine article (Ashford 1911).