Why are fast services stopping more?

[TimG]

At some point in the future, some Gatwick Express services are being extended to Brighton off-peak. Once this happens, there will be Brighton trains which don't stop at Clapham Junction and East Croydon.

Yuck. These are incredibly busy stations with a lot if interchange possibilities. Why would you miss them out? The existing lack of peak services between Brighton and clapham junction is already a pain in the backside.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In my youth (and referring to the 67/68 timetable) the Euston - Birmingham service was hourly and called at only Coventry (73") between Euston and New Street (94")

That was, of course, before the invention of Milton Keynes city and the Birmingham International complex (NEC etc).
They are both now very big traffic generators in their own right.
Relatively, Watford Junction and Rugby have declined in importance

Reading is now another place where it is unthinkable not to stop.

 

[The Planner]

The Hampton-in-Arden calls were because it was the closest station to the airport at the time, connecting onto a bus for onward travel. This explains the unusual long platforms here, when compared to the other local stations between Birmingham and Coventry. Also, it was also a former junction with the Midland Railway route to Derby - the very first foundations of what was to evolve into the present day crosscountry route that runs from Derby to Bristol. The track to Whitacre Junction was lifted in the 1960s.

Doesn't explain the one train a day as quoted which left London at a convenient time for said person to get home, and this still happens today, you didnt think XC started a service at Bath which got to XC headquarters in Brum for a convenient time because it was a big revenue generator did you? Nothing to do with a certain lady exec that lived there....

As for the Whitacre railway, that was dead and buried by the Second World War. It lost its passenger services in 1917. It was a stub by the 1940s.

Intercity services stopped calling at Hampton-in-Arden in 1976 when the present day Birmingham International station opened, which is sandwiched in between the terminal building and the NEC (or whatever it is called these days). There was also a maglev link from the station to the terminal building - the very first maglev railway in the world I believe.

Yes, but the original terminal building was on the other side of the runway and didn't move over to where it is now until 1984, so International still wasn't much use.

 

[southern442]

There is no reason to do this - it just complicates the timetable. East Croydon is probably the main constraint on the Brighton line timetable so you would need to have the trains pass through there at the same point in the hour. If you do this, either the one that is fast to East Croydon would leave Victoria 2 minutes late in its half hour or be pathed with time for the Clapham Junction stop. The same thing would apply with regard to the Haywards Heath stop in the up direction.

Why is it important to have the train non-stop through Clapham Junction anyway?

At some point in the future, some Gatwick Express services are being extended to Brighton off-peak. Once this happens, there will be Brighton trains which don't stop at Clapham Junction and East Croydon.

The missed stop at Clapham Junction caters for passengers that want to get to Brighton from Victoria, and means that the train doesn't fill up at Clapham.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yuck. These are incredibly busy stations with a lot if interchange possibilities. Why would you miss them out? The existing lack of peak services between Brighton and clapham junction is already a pain in the backside.

As well as extending the Gatwick Express to Brigthon, there will also be 2tph off peak Victoria - Brighton trains which call at Claphan Jn, E Croydon and principal stations.

 

[nw1]

There always used to be a headline Euston - Glasgow train with only a Preston call, in Intercity days it was timed at 5h.

I'm on the 1630 later in the week so can advise on patronage. It wasn't too full last time I used it.

Could that be more the premium peak fares putting people off though? (or is Glasgow exempt? I know Windermere - changing obviously - is exempt on many of those peak trains). I'd have thought Preston (with connections) and Glasgow alone could quite easily fill a peak train... as long as the fares were reasonable.
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Coincidentally, I was on the Wandering Javelin repeat railtour on Saturday, which was timed non-stop from St Pancras to Ashford in 31 minutes. On the day it took 32mins 25secs, due to a delay in getting into platform 5 at Ashford. The RTT timing log (here) is pretty much correct; we were a full minute up at Ashford West Jn and had we been given a clear run in I suspect we might even have edged under 30 minutes.

As other posters have said, though, the desire for a clockface timetable seems largely to override having such non-stop trains. Virgin do fairly well at fitting such "headline" trains into their timetable, particularly in the morning peak with the 0730 from New Street (non-stop), the 0700 from Manchester (calling Stockport only) and the 0700 from Runcorn (calling Runcorn only).

Wondering why there is such an obsession with a clock face timetable during the peaks these days? As a 12 year old in 1983/84 I could easily grasp the concept that timings of peak trains (as they were then on the lines out of Waterloo) differed from the off-peak. If a 12 year old can cope with it, I'm sure most adult commuters could. As I said elsewhere, it seems to have become increasingly unfashionable to let the peak timetable differ from the off peak.

 

[TimG]

The missed stop at Clapham Junction caters for passengers that want to get to Brighton from Victoria, and means that the train doesn't fill up at Clapham.

But doesn't Full of passengers = success! Or have I missed something?

 

[Kite159]

Yuck. These are incredibly busy stations with a lot if interchange possibilities. Why would you miss them out? The existing lack of peak services between Brighton and clapham junction is already a pain in the backside.

Isn't that happening now with the 442s being extended beyond Gatwick in the peaks to run non-stop to Brighton (to form Brighton express returns stopping only at East Croydon & Clapham)?

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In the high peaks, isn't the skip of Clapham due to pathing issues (getting more trains into/out of Victoria/Waterloo)?

 

[louis97]

Isn't that happening now with the 442s being extended beyond Gatwick in the peaks to run non-stop to Brighton (to form Brighton express returns stopping only at East Croydon & Clapham)?

In peaks yes, what was being referred to is that this would happen in off peaks, although they would then work a Gatwick Express diagram back.

In the high peaks, isn't the skip of Clapham due to pathing issues (getting more trains into/out of Victoria/Waterloo)?

They only skip Clapham on the South West Trains side to fit more trains in. The issue the poster was referring to was the fact that in peak the service to/from Brighton is made up mostly of Gatwick Express services starting/continuing to Brighton meaning fast from Gatwick to Victoria - therefore getting to/from Clapham to/from Brighton in peak can be a pain.

 

[brad465]

They only skip Clapham on the South West Trains side to fit more trains in. The issue the poster was referring to was the fact that in peak the service to/from Brighton is made up mostly of Gatwick Express services starting/continuing to Brighton meaning fast from Gatwick to Victoria - therefore getting to/from Clapham to/from Brighton in peak can be a pain.

This has just reminded me how getting to/from Orpington in the peak can be a slow ride, where 4tph in the off-peak run fast to London Bridge , but in the peak, many services down the SEML run fast between London and Sevenoaks/Tonbridge/High Brooms, sometimes not serving London Bridge as well. At least though such fast services still exist this way.

 

[TimG]

In peaks yes, what was being referred to is that this would happen in off peaks, although they would then work a Gatwick Express diagram back.



They only skip Clapham on the South West Trains side to fit more trains in. The issue the poster was referring to was the fact that in peak the service to/from Brighton is made up mostly of Gatwick Express services starting/continuing to Brighton meaning fast from Gatwick to Victoria - therefore getting to/from Clapham to/from Brighton in peak can be a pain.

I hope one day they get rid of the Gatwick express. Doesn't seem a good use of scarce resources.

 

[dk1]

There always used to be a headline Euston - Glasgow train with only a Preston call, in Intercity days it was timed at 5h

I have somewhere a issue of Modern Railways where it states that due to the downturn in the economy & falling passenger numbers, this train (think it was 10.30 ex-Euston) will have to call additionally at Carlisle to maintain loadings whilst another service was withdrawn.
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Doesn't the same apply on the Norwich route? If you can fill a train with passengers for Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich, maybe you don't stop the train at Diss. But maybe the operator thinks it will make more money by offering a half hourly service from Diss to Norwich than it loses by stopping all trains there.

Certain peak trains always saw more passengers alight down road at Diss than Norwich with the same being true on very early morning trains up road. One anomaly that went on for years was the 17.00 ex-Lst 'The East Anglian' calling at Ipswich only & leaving Diss with no service from 16.30-17.30 at one of the busiest times of the day when it was half-hourly at other times. Today they are also joined if you really want to by the 17.02 Dusty Bin.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have somewhere a issue of Modern Railways where it states that due to the downturn in the economy & falling passenger numbers, this train (think it was 10.30 ex-Euston) will have to call additionally at Carlisle to maintain loadings whilst another service was withdrawn.

It was the 1030 or thereabouts, and it was the Royal Scot.

Tonight's 1630 had about 60-70 in first class from Euston, and 200 or so in standard. At Preston, almost as many people boarded as alighted.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Out of interest was it a 390/0 or /1?

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of interest was it a 390/0 or /1?

/1. Yesterday it was a /0.

 

[Smethwickian]

The Hampton-in-Arden calls were because it was the closest station to the airport at the time, connecting onto a bus for onward travel. This explains the unusual long platforms here, when compared to the other local stations between Birmingham and Coventry. Also, it was also a former junction with the Midland Railway route to Derby - the very first foundations of what was to evolve into the present day crosscountry route that runs from Derby to Bristol. The track to Whitacre Junction was lifted in the 1960s.

Intercity services stopped calling at Hampton-in-Arden in 1976 when the present day Birmingham International station opened, which is sandwiched in between the terminal building and the NEC (or whatever it is called these days). There was also a maglev link from the station to the terminal building - the very first maglev railway in the world I believe.

In peace

Adam

As a born-and-bred Westmidlander whose been interested in buses and trains since very, very young (almost half a century ago), forgive me, but I can never, ever recall a bus link between Hampton-in-Arden and the Airport. For many years the village's only bus link was towards Solihull, a remnant of the former Midland Red 158 Birmingham-Solihull-Coventry route, until the advent of the early 1980s Heart of England network, later the 192, now partly covered by the 82.

My understanding of the reason for InterCity calls at Hampton-in-Arden was simply that it was near Solihull, and in the afluent Meriden Gap area, which attracted enough commuters - parking there rather than driving to Birmingham or Coventry - to justify some peak-time London services.

At that time there would have been no regular through services from Solihull to London, only a once-daily return remnant of the old GW services between Wolverhampton and Paddington.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Speaking of that part of the world, the Moor Street - Marylebone trains are bucking the trend that this thread alleges is happening. Ten years ago they all stopped at Solihull - Dorridge - Warwick Parkway - Warwick - Leamington - Banbury - Bicester - Haddenham - Princes Risboro' - High Wycombe - Marylebone. Now a good chunk of them are Solihull - Warwick Parkway - Leamington - Banbury - Marylebone.

 

[dk1]

It was the 1030 or thereabouts, and it was the Royal Scot.

Tonight's 1630 had about 60-70 in first class from Euston, and 200 or so in standard. At Preston, almost as many people boarded as alighted.

That is good loading for a limited stop & often seems to have fewer AP cheaper tickets. Last time I saw it arrive in Glasgow around 200 alighted.