Why are fast services stopping more?

[brad465]

Something I've realised over time, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, is that fast trains are being made to call at more stations on their journey. Not all, but particular ones that have, and ones I think could be made faster, are:

-Brighton Express. Nowadays calls at Clapham Jnt and East Croydon, but used to run non-stop for many decades between Brighton and Victoria.

-London-Bristol. Might have been faster in early HST days, but if there was one service type that ran a few times a day, that was made to only take 1h 30m, instead of 10-20 mins more, then such a journey would be more attractive.

-London- Ashford Int(and high speed especially). A service from Cannon St- Ashford Int used to only call at London Bridge, West Malling and Bearstead on the way, but disappeared, likely to the High Speed intro. However, I'm sure not every 395 service needs to call at Stratford and Ebbsfleet, and a service to Ashford might take less than 37 mins.

-Euston- Birmingham New Street. Most Virgin trains make 3 stops on the way between the two, with Coventry and Birmingham Int 2 of those. As a service that runs every 20 mins, would it be possible to send one of those 3 every hour non-stop between the 2 (especially ones going further north) ?


I'm sure there is a logical reason for all cases, and there are likely others as well. Does anyone know of such likely reasons?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think it's just to do with managing line and passenger capacity.

As an example, there used to be one fast train an hour that was non-stop between Waterloo and Southampton Central; there are now so many trains on the line that pathing it in would be impossible without turning everything else into a useless flight that would leave all the intermediate main stops with a very lopsided timetable of 2 or 3 trains in the space of a few minutes then nothing for nearly an hour!

Pity really, because it was always very enjoyable when one of the fasts had a really clear path in good conditions and the driver was giving it a lot of welly ( this was in the days of REP / TC formations and a sub- one hour run in the up direction was not unknown ).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

My take on it would be:

Victoria-Brighton - probably to aid capacity on the Victoria-East Croydon flow and give Clapham Junction a reasonable service to Brighton (it would be 1tph otherwise!)
Paddington-Bristol / Cardiff - Swindon used to be regularly skipped (maybe even hourly), and Slough used to be a more regular call. Quite a few peak trains also used to omit Reading. I guess it's just the demands of modern flows that dictate the need for stops.
Euston-Birmingham - used to be 2tph, one calling at Keynes and one at Watford - I can't remember ever seeing a regular non-stop Euton-Coventry service...

 

[JonathanH]

Something I've realised over time, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, is that fast trains are being made to call at more stations on their journey. Not all, but particular ones that have, and ones I think could be made faster, are:

-Euston- Birmingham New Street. Most Virgin trains make 3 stops on the way between the two, with Coventry and Birmingham Int 2 of those. As a service that runs every 20 mins, would it be possible to send one of those 3 every hour non-stop between the 2 (especially ones going further north) ?


I'm sure there is a logical reason for all cases, and there are likely others as well. Does anyone know of such likely reasons?

Having the Euston to Birmingham trains each stop once between Euston and Coventry best suits the clock face timetable on the Coventry to Birmingham stretch. It also facilitates the fast service for Watford and Rugby.

 

[Joseph.bevan96]

My take on it would be:
Euston-Birmingham - used to be 2tph, one calling at Keynes and one at Watford - I can't remember ever seeing a regular non-stop Euton-Coventry service...

There's just one southbound a day which doesn't call anywhere south of Birmingham New Street, 1R14 (0705) Wolverhampton-> London Euston (0843).

Until the Wolverhampton's were extended to Scotland, it always used to be start from Brum and run non stop.

Otherwise from Coventry its: xx11 for Rugby, xx30 for the Keynes and xx50 for Watford Junction.

Hope this helps

 

[MidnightFlyer]

There's just one southbound a day which doesn't call anywhere south of Birmingham New Street, 1R14 (0705) Wolverhampton-> London Euston (0843).

Until the Wolverhampton's were extended to Scotland, it always used to be start from Brum and run non stop.

Otherwise from Coventry its: xx11 for Rugby, xx30 for the Keynes and xx50 for Watford Junction.

Hope this helps

Yeah, thanks, I was talking about pre-VHF with the Watford and Keynes comments: Watford on the Wolves train and Keynes on the New St train I think it was. I know of the Birmingham Flyer (I thought it had always started from Wolves though ): I meant a regular hourly service between London and Coventry non-stop

 

[Joseph.bevan96]

Yeah, thanks, I was talking about pre-VHF with the Watford and Keynes comments: Watford on the Wolves train and Keynes on the New St train I think it was. I know of the Birmingham Flyer (I thought it had always started from Wolves though ): I meant a regular hourly service between London and Coventry non-stop

Could well have done
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah, thanks, I was talking about pre-VHF with the Watford and Keynes comments: Watford on the Wolves train and Keynes on the New St train I think it was. I know of the Birmingham Flyer (I thought it had always started from Wolves though ): I meant a regular hourly service between London and Coventry non-stop

And ah pre- VHF, the days of the whining monsters. My first experience of the railways was standing on Nuneaton platform 5 with my nan and grandad as 87010 rounded the corner with a flyer. It was the quietest I've ever been according to my nan!

 

[TheJRB]

-London- Ashford Int(and high speed especially). A service from Cannon St- Ashford Int used to only call at London Bridge, West Malling and Bearstead on the way, but disappeared, likely to the High Speed intro. However, I'm sure not every 395 service needs to call at Stratford and Ebbsfleet, and a service to Ashford might take less than 37 mins.

Well almost all fast services between London and Ashford not via HS1 were removed when the domestic high speed service was introduced.

There's still an hourly semi-fast via Maidstone East to Victoria (Bearsted, Maidstone East, West Malling, Borough Green, Otford, Swanley, Bromley South) but that takes no less time than the slow Charing Cross via Tonbridge. Not to forget the good old 08:53 Charing Cross to Ashford (Waterloo East, London Bridge, Tonbridge) which is the last truly fast service via Tonbridge. A number of peak time trains don't call at Pluckley and the 18:21 Charing Cross to Ramsgate doesn't call at Marden either.

On the HS1 front, calling at Stratford provides a very useful link to the Docklands, East London and East Anglia. Ebbsfleet used to be very quiet until about a year ago. Now it seems to be increasingly popular and considering the new property developments going on there, I think any hopes for off-peak services skipping it are well and truly dashed. That said there are a number of peak time services which do skip Ebbsfleet:

1J09 0548 Margate and Sandwich to St Pancras International
1J11 0626 Ramsgate and Sandwich to St Pancras International
1J13 0646 Margate to St Pancras International
1J15 0730 Ramsgate and Sandwich to St Pancras International

1J50 1712 St Pancras International to Dover Priory and Margate
1J52 1742 St Pancras International to Sandwich and Margate
1J54 1812 St Pancras International to Margate
1J56 1842 St Pancras International to Sandwich and Margate

Most of the down trains take 35 minutes between London and Ashford (except the 18:42 which does it in 34) whilst the up trains vary a bit. Typical off-peak services take 38 so you do save three or four minutes by not stopping at Ebbsfleet.

In comparison, Eurostar services run non-stop from London to Ashford take only 29 minutes! One time I saw a late Margate to St Pancras service which ran non-stop from Ashford and that did it in 30 minutes. I've never found out what speed Eurostar services actually run at between London and the tunnel though.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

... And of course those semi-fasts via Maidstone East and the Ashford Flyer are (or were) due to disappear in the next timetable change.

 

[Philip C]

My take on it would be:


Euston-Birmingham - used to be 2tph, one calling at Keynes and one at Watford - I can't remember ever seeing a regular non-stop Euton-Coventry service...

In my youth (and referring to the 67/68 timetable) the Euston - Birmingham service was hourly and called at only Coventry (73") between Euston and New Street (94"), then going forward, after an eleven minute pause, to Wolverhampton (High Level) (121"), Stafford (136") and Crewe (159"). Beyond there alternate trains went to Wilmslow (182"), Stockport Edgeley (192") and Manchester Piccadilly (200") or to Runcorn (180") and Liverpool Lime Street (200"). Trains left Euston at 15 minutes past the hour from 0815 until 2015 with those from 0815 until 1815 on even hours going through to Piccadilly and those from 0915 until 1915 on odd hours going to Lime Street. In the morning a couple called at Watford Junction and earlier, in pattern, trains started up from Coventry to Piccadilly and Lime Street. There were very few other fast trains to New Street from Euston (just 0940[dated], 1645, 1750SX and 2240).

The 0940 wound up at Aberystwyth; the 1645 at Shrewsbury; the 1750SX was named 'The Executive', went as far as Wolverhampton, carried enhanced meal capacity and called additionally at Hampton-in-Arden; and the 2240 called additionally at Rugby and terminated at Wolverhampton.

There were, of course, direct trains to Liverpool and Manchester via the Trent Valley but only at two-hourly intervals, with some extras (and a few longer gaps to Liverpool)

These trains were amongst the wonders of their age!

 

[brad465]

... And of course those semi-fasts via Maidstone East and the Ashford Flyer are (or were) due to disappear in the next timetable change.

That might be among the many changes that will arise while London Bridge is in its heavy stages of development (i.e. Charing X trains not serving there). I believe the Maidstone East line trains are being extended to Canterbury West (like in the past), but it would be a shame to see another fall in the Ashford flyer, not least as no regular service will run through the likes of Paddock Wood or Headcorn (on the fast lines through the middle), as well as the other 3 stops.

Well almost all fast services between London and Ashford not via HS1 were removed when the domestic high speed service was introduced.

There's still an hourly semi-fast via Maidstone East to Victoria (Bearsted, Maidstone East, West Malling, Borough Green, Otford, Swanley, Bromley South) but that takes no less time than the slow Charing Cross via Tonbridge. Not to forget the good old 08:53 Charing Cross to Ashford (Waterloo East, London Bridge, Tonbridge) which is the last truly fast service via Tonbridge. A number of peak time trains don't call at Pluckley and the 18:21 Charing Cross to Ramsgate doesn't call at Marden either.

On the HS1 front, calling at Stratford provides a very useful link to the Docklands, East London and East Anglia. Ebbsfleet used to be very quiet until about a year ago. Now it seems to be increasingly popular and considering the new property developments going on there, I think any hopes for off-peak services skipping it are well and truly dashed.

As it happens my thought came up when 2 weeks ago I took the train to and from Ashford, going via Maidstone East. Interestingly the down train was the stopping frequency you described, but going back to Victoria was all stations to Maidstone, then semi-fast, which was effectively a hybrid (I believe it left Ashford around 15:25). :roll:

As for Ebbsfleet, I have to agree that the planned Garden city would hamper everything, and with Stratford I only actually thought of it from St Pancras to Stratford, not from Kent places to Stratford, which makes more sense.

 

[edwin_m]

One factor not mentioned above (as far as I can see) is the increase in commuting on what were formerly considered "intercity" routes - London-Bristol being the prime example. Due to various factors including property prices and historically low season ticket rates on intercity versus NSE routes, commuting in the 50-100mile range has increased particularly north and west of London. So these routes tend to have a more frequent service but with more stops - you see it also on the Midland, and the ECML has introduced some shorter distance service to mop up some of this market.

 

[The Planner]

The 0940 wound up at Aberystwyth; the 1645 at Shrewsbury; the 1750SX was named 'The Executive', went as far as Wolverhampton, carried enhanced meal capacity and called additionally at Hampton-in-Arden; and the 2240 called additionally at Rugby and terminated at Wolverhampton.

Nothing to do with a certain highly placed exec at BR living in Hampton in Arden no doubt....

 

[D6975]

It's all down to the desire to have a clockface timetable, trying to make it easy for passengers to remember what time their train goes by there being one at a certain no. of mins past each hour all through the day.
It means you can't have long distance non stoppers at peak hours unless it's an extra service to the clockface one.
Padd Bristol as pointed out is a classic example. Evening peak hour services could quite easily run first stop Chippenham or Bath and still be full and standing departing from Padd.

 

[starrymarkb]

In comparison, Eurostar services run non-stop from London to Ashford take only 29 minutes! One time I saw a late Margate to St Pancras service which ran non-stop from Ashford and that did it in 30 minutes. I've never found out what speed Eurostar services actually run at between London and the tunnel though.

230km/h from near Highbury to Fawkenham Junc (East of Ebbsfleet), 300km/h from there to approaching Ashford, 270km/h through Ashford station, 300km/h from there to Dollands Moor and then 160km/h through the Tunnel (though obv the TVM will start stepping the speed down earlier, IIRC they are usually doing about 200km/h passing Westenhanger when the Pans drop for the change to shuttle knitting

 

[TheJRB]

230km/h from near Highbury to Fawkenham Junc (East of Ebbsfleet), 300km/h from there to approaching Ashford, 270km/h through Ashford station, 300km/h from there to Dollands Moor and then 160km/h through the Tunnel (though obv the TVM will start stepping the speed down earlier, IIRC they are usually doing about 200km/h passing Westenhanger when the Pans drop for the change to shuttle knitting

Ah! Thanks for that. I know they certainly head over the flyover in Ashford at great speed (and noise! ) so it's good to know the details.

 

[southern442]

My take on it would be:

Victoria-Brighton - probably to aid capacity on the Victoria-East Croydon flow and give Clapham Junction a reasonable service to Brighton (it would be 1tph otherwise!)
Paddington-Bristol / Cardiff - Swindon used to be regularly skipped (maybe even hourly), and Slough used to be a more regular call. Quite a few peak trains also used to omit Reading. I guess it's just the demands of modern flows that dictate the need for stops.
Euston-Birmingham - used to be 2tph, one calling at Keynes and one at Watford - I can't remember ever seeing a regular non-stop Euton-Coventry service...

I thnk there should be 1tph Victoria-Clapham Jn-East Croydon-Brighton, 1tph Victoria-E Croydon-Haywards Heath-Brighton, and 1 stopping one. You could possibly omit the Haywards Heath stop on the second train if you wanted to.

 

[IrishDave]

-London- Ashford Int(and high speed especially). A service from Cannon St- Ashford Int used to only call at London Bridge, West Malling and Bearstead on the way, but disappeared, likely to the High Speed intro. However, I'm sure not every 395 service needs to call at Stratford and Ebbsfleet, and a service to Ashford might take less than 37 mins.

Coincidentally, I was on the Wandering Javelin repeat railtour on Saturday, which was timed non-stop from St Pancras to Ashford in 31 minutes. On the day it took 32mins 25secs, due to a delay in getting into platform 5 at Ashford. The RTT timing log (here) is pretty much correct; we were a full minute up at Ashford West Jn and had we been given a clear run in I suspect we might even have edged under 30 minutes.

As other posters have said, though, the desire for a clockface timetable seems largely to override having such non-stop trains. Virgin do fairly well at fitting such "headline" trains into their timetable, particularly in the morning peak with the 0730 from New Street (non-stop), the 0700 from Manchester (calling Stockport only) and the 0700 from Runcorn (calling Runcorn only).

At the other end of the day, the 1630 from Euston does the run to Glasgow in only 4 hours 8 minutes, calling only at Preston. However, the desire to keep the standard pattern to Birmingham and Manchester throughout the evening seems to preclude any change to the calling patterns (other than making MK stops pick-up only).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Indeed, the only real oddities apart from those you I can think of on Virgin are the 1857 ThFO Euston-Manchester Piccadilly, calling at Crewe only; and the FO 0952 Preston-Euston which calls Wigan, Warrington and Crewe then non-stop to London via Stoke and Hixon.

Never understood the need for the 1630 to be Preston only, often times it's not brilliantly full for what is meant to be a peak service, surely there would be some benefit to a Lancaster or Carlisle call at the least to relieve later services.

 

[dannypye9999]

Theres hardly any fast services Manchester to Blackpool anymore. The only ones which are fast now are the night services which stop at Bolton, Preston, and Blackpool North only.

 

[northwichcat]

I think sometimes it's a case of a new service by an Intercity/Regional operators means there's no longer provision for a local service. Northern had to reduce the number of Stockport-Manchester services they ran when Virgin went to 3tph between London and Manchester. That resulted in the pick-up only and set-down only restrictions at Stockport on London services being lifted. It also had indirect consequences - a unit could no longer get across to run a peak time extra between Irlam and Manchester, which meant TPE added an Irlam call in to one of their North TPE services.

 

[user15681]

London to Ashford on HS1 via 395 can be done in 30 minutes at best, provided you get a clear run and don't stop at Stratford, Ebbsfleet or outside Ashford. Even then, it'll most likely by 31-32 minutes. Via Eurostar, 28 minutes is possible I believe and 29 minutes is done daily.

 

[TheJRB]

London to Ashford on HS1 via 395 can be done in 30 minutes at best, provided you get a clear run and don't stop at Stratford, Ebbsfleet or outside Ashford. Even then, it'll most likely by 31-32 minutes. Via Eurostar, 28 minutes is possible I believe and 29 minutes is done daily.

I must say to be fair that although the services which call at Ebbsfleet are booked to make Ashford in 38 minutes, if you do get a clear run into Ashford, it's almost always one minute quicker. If you get slowed down outside Ashford you can easily lose two minutes. It can be a little bit of a frustrating approach to Ashford after such a fast run from Ebbsfleet.

 

[Bald Rick]

Never understood the need for the 1630 to be Preston only, often times it's not brilliantly full for what is meant to be a peak service, surely there would be some benefit to a Lancaster or Carlisle call at the least to relieve later services.

There always used to be a headline Euston - Glasgow train with only a Preston call, in Intercity days it was timed at 5h.

I'm on the 1630 later in the week so can advise on patronage. It wasn't too full last time I used it.

 

[adrock1976]

In my youth (and referring to the 67/68 timetable) the Euston - Birmingham service was hourly and called at only Coventry (73") between Euston and New Street (94"), then going forward, after an eleven minute pause, to Wolverhampton (High Level) (121"), Stafford (136") and Crewe (159"). Beyond there alternate trains went to Wilmslow (182"), Stockport Edgeley (192") and Manchester Piccadilly (200") or to Runcorn (180") and Liverpool Lime Street (200"). Trains left Euston at 15 minutes past the hour from 0815 until 2015 with those from 0815 until 1815 on even hours going through to Piccadilly and those from 0915 until 1915 on odd hours going to Lime Street. In the morning a couple called at Watford Junction and earlier, in pattern, trains started up from Coventry to Piccadilly and Lime Street. There were very few other fast trains to New Street from Euston (just 0940[dated], 1645, 1750SX and 2240).

The 0940 wound up at Aberystwyth; the 1645 at Shrewsbury; the 1750SX was named 'The Executive', went as far as Wolverhampton, carried enhanced meal capacity and called additionally at Hampton-in-Arden; and the 2240 called additionally at Rugby and terminated at Wolverhampton.

There were, of course, direct trains to Liverpool and Manchester via the Trent Valley but only at two-hourly intervals, with some extras (and a few longer gaps to Liverpool)

These trains were amongst the wonders of their age!

Nothing to do with a certain highly placed exec at BR living in Hampton in Arden no doubt....

The Hampton-in-Arden calls were because it was the closest station to the airport at the time, connecting onto a bus for onward travel. This explains the unusual long platforms here, when compared to the other local stations between Birmingham and Coventry. Also, it was also a former junction with the Midland Railway route to Derby - the very first foundations of what was to evolve into the present day crosscountry route that runs from Derby to Bristol. The track to Whitacre Junction was lifted in the 1960s.

Intercity services stopped calling at Hampton-in-Arden in 1976 when the present day Birmingham International station opened, which is sandwiched in between the terminal building and the NEC (or whatever it is called these days). There was also a maglev link from the station to the terminal building - the very first maglev railway in the world I believe.

In peace

Adam

 

[JonathanH]

I thnk there should be 1tph Victoria-Clapham Jn-East Croydon-Brighton, 1tph Victoria-E Croydon-Haywards Heath-Brighton, and 1 stopping one. You could possibly omit the Haywards Heath stop on the second train if you wanted to.

There is no reason to do this - it just complicates the timetable. East Croydon is probably the main constraint on the Brighton line timetable so you would need to have the trains pass through there at the same point in the hour. If you do this, either the one that is fast to East Croydon would leave Victoria 2 minutes late in its half hour or be pathed with time for the Clapham Junction stop. The same thing would apply with regard to the Haywards Heath stop in the up direction.

Why is it important to have the train non-stop through Clapham Junction anyway?

At some point in the future, some Gatwick Express services are being extended to Brighton off-peak. Once this happens, there will be Brighton trains which don't stop at Clapham Junction and East Croydon.

 

[SprinterMan]

Under Anglia Railways, the Norwich to London fasts only called at Ipswich and Colchester. These days, they also call at Diss & Manningtree. When the Stansted Express was first introduced, it only called at Tottenham Hale, but now it calls at some combination of Harlow Town, Bishop Stortford and Stansted Mountfitchet as well. The London to Harwich boat trains used to be non-stop under Anglia, but now they call at Manningtree, Colchester, Witham, Chelmsford & Stratford. It seems Expresses are picking up stops everywhere except the ECML & WCML :P

Adam

 

[JonathanH]

Under Anglia Railways, the Norwich to London fasts only called at Ipswich and Colchester. These days, they also call at Diss & Manningtree. When the Stansted Express was first introduced, it only called at Tottenham Hale, but now it calls at some combination of Harlow Town, Bishop Stortford and Stansted Mountfitchet as well. The London to Harwich boat trains used to be non-stop under Anglia, but now they call at Manningtree, Colchester, Witham, Chelmsford & Stratford. It seems Expresses are picking up stops everywhere except the ECML & WCML :P

Adam

Stansted Express calls at one of Harlow Town and Bishops Stortford to give these places better services to London while allowing a service every 15 minutes to Stansted. If they didn't there would be lightly loaded trains to Stansted Airport followed by heavily loaded trains to Cambridge. There isn't capacity to have a dedicated service for Stansted Airport to the detriment of other places on the West Anglia route.

Doesn't the same apply on the Norwich route? If you can fill a train with passengers for Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich, maybe you don't stop the train at Diss. But maybe the operator thinks it will make more money by offering a half hourly service from Diss to Norwich than it loses by stopping all trains there.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The Hampton-in-Arden calls were because it was the closest station to the airport at the time, connecting onto a bus for onward travel. ...

Indeed, but it does seem a bit odd that a perfectly-timed peak service from London would call there when seemingly no others did, especially when there'd be all-day flights. I believe the XC service from Bath is also supposed helped someone high up commute from there.

Another example was brought up on here a few weeks ago - a Northern line station was exempted from closure proposals way back when: despite it being one of the quieter stations on the line, it was a manager's local shack too...
I wouldn't be surprised if there's many more from over the decades across the network.

 

[SprinterMan]

Stansted Express calls at one of Harlow Town and Bishops Stortford to give these places better services to London while allowing a service every 15 minutes to Stansted. If they didn't there would be lightly loaded trains to Stansted Airport followed by heavily loaded trains to Cambridge. There isn't capacity to have a dedicated service for Stansted Airport to the detriment of other places on the West Anglia route.

Doesn't the same apply on the Norwich route? If you can fill a train with passengers for Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich, maybe you don't stop the train at Diss. But maybe the operator thinks it will make more money by offering a half hourly service from Diss to Norwich than it loses by stopping all trains there.

I completely agree. I didn't say there weren't reasons for the trains picking up stops. The fast Norwich to London trains were part of the stupid war between Anglia and FGE for revenue share between Ipswich & London (FGE had trains that only did Manningtree, Colchester & Chelmsford that ran pretty empty north of Chelmsford). The Stansted Express trains picked up Stansted M'f'et as a result of the Stratford to Stansted stoppers being truncated at Bishop Stortford so they could be doubled in frequency.

Adam