Why are drains not cleaned out?

[Bikeman78]

You are lucky that any of the gullies work at all. Around here the roads have been swept so infrequently that almost all of them are silted up to road level, which means tha the u-bends are also concreted up with no chance of ever being cleared, even if they had the resources to dig out the gulleys ("catch-pits" in other useage.)

This may need a new thread, but my follow up question is why are they not cleaned out? In the 1980s every one near my parent's house was pumped out at least once a year. Probably twice a year. We are not a poor nation. We can afford to do it right. I completely accept that there will be occasions when the volume of rainwater overwhelms the drains but that is no excuse for them not to be working at all.

 

[Helvellyn]

This may need a new thread, but my follow up question is why are they not cleaned out? In the 1980s every one near my parent's house was pumped out at least once a year. Probably twice a year. We are not a poor nation. We can afford to do it right. I completely accept that there will be occasions when the volume of rainwater overwhelms the drains but that is no excuse for them not to be working at all.

Northamptonshire County Council went bankrupt a few years ago. To sort the mess the Local Government Commissioners proposed merging the seven local Councils to create two unitary authorities, which happened, and take over the old County Council functions. We now have West Northamptonshire and North Northamptonshire. This sort of service sat with the County Council. Various cutbacks in services happened and this is one I imagine both authorities have not reinstated. There's certainly not much gully sweeping/cleaning in North Northants.

 

[Magdalia]

This may need a new thread, but my follow up question is why are they not cleaned out? In the 1980s every one near my parent's house was pumped out at least once a year. Probably twice a year. We are not a poor nation. We can afford to do it right. I completely accept that there will be occasions when the volume of rainwater overwhelms the drains but that is no excuse for them not to be working at all.

It comes down to money.

The two main sources of local government income are council tax and government grant. Increases in council tax are capped by central government, and grant income has been severely restricted since 2010.

The two main blocks of local government expenditure are social care and education. The former is increasing faster than income because of an aging population, the latter is increasing faster than income because of increase in identified special educational needs and cost of home to school transport.

In the new year councils will be setting their budgets and council tax for 2025/26. That's when these issues can come to public attention.

 

[dangie]

It comes down to money.

Of course this is correct, but I would hope that most councils could afford at last one gulley sucker & operative. Not clearing drains is false economy, it probably leads to more expense in the long run.

 

[Hadlow Road]

Of course this is correct, but I would hope that most councils could afford at last one gulley sucker & operative. Not clearing drains is false economy, it probably leads to more expense in the long run.

You are correct, it does. However that is then someone else’s budget and problem.

 

[DarloRich]

Councils haven't got a pot to puddle in hence the cut backs in doing work like that this

 

[Bald Rick]

I am genuinely considering, on retirement, buying a second hand gully sucker / drain cleaner and going around the streets of Hertfordshire doing guerilla drain clearance. I must have reported some of the drains near us a dozen times now. It is so simple to do, and so frustrating when it is not done - or worse - not done properly.

One actually got done about 3 months back (after 6 years of reporting it), but I genuinely can’t fathom why they just did that one, and not the four similarly blocked within a 50 metre radius. It would have taken them another 30 minutes, and solved it.


As an aside, St Albans District Council got so annoued with Herts County Council re gutter sweeping that they took on the role themsleves, and to be fair they do a pretty good job of it. However the drains and gullies are a highways asset and thus clearance of them still rests with the county. Trying to engage the district council politicians in the subject is somewhat fruitless.

 

[Trackman]

In my experience, they only clean them when it's blocked, which defeats the object.
Used to watch the gully suckers on road sweepers loads of times in the 70's, I cannot remember last time I've seen it done.

 

[Nottingham59]

One actually got done about 3 months back (after 6 years of reporting it), but I genuinely can’t fathom why they just did that one, and not the four similarly blocked within a 50 metre radius. It would have taken them another 30 minutes, and solved it.

Because the people who actually did the work will have been given the job to clear one specified drain. One of the big issues with contracting out is that there is no scope for the "and while you're at it, please do the other four nearby at the same time." That would be a new job at additional cost.

An even better operating model would be to allow the pump-put gang to use their own initiative in places, and reward them for doing so.

 

[John Webb]

I am genuinely considering, on retirement, buying a second hand gully sucker / drain cleaner and going around the streets of Hertfordshire doing guerilla drain clearance. I must have reported some of the drains near us a dozen times now. It is so simple to do, and so frustrating when it is not done - or worse - not done properly.

One actually got done about 3 months back (after 6 years of reporting it), but I genuinely can’t fathom why they just did that one, and not the four similarly blocked within a 50 metre radius. It would have taken them another 30 minutes, and solved it.

As an aside, St Albans District Council got so annoued with Herts County Council re gutter sweeping that they took on the role themsleves, and to be fair they do a pretty good job of it. However the drains and gullies are a highways asset and thus clearance of them still rests with the county. Trying to engage the district council politicians in the subject is somewhat fruitless.

Herts CC have a policy of only cleaning main highway gullies every 18 months and those in sideroads, I think, every third drain each year. Yet leaf fall occurs every 12 months.....
I've been told this measure was indeed done as a short-term savings measure, but that was some years back. One hates to think what the actual cost has been in terms of road surface damage, vehicle damage and delays caused by roads flooding when they needn't have done.

 

[Bald Rick]

Because the people who actually did the work will have been given the job to clear one specified drain.

Sorry yes, I knew that; my ‘they’ referred to the people specifying what should be done.

[CLARKSON MODE] I mean how hard can it be to see that the drain the other side of the road is also blocked as well as the one you have visited to tag with the red paint for clearing? [\CLARKSON MODE]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2024 ==

Herts CC have a policy of only cleaning main highway gullies every 18 months and those in sideroads, I think, every third drain each year.

If they met that policy, it would be wonderful. Some of the drains I’m talking about haven’t been touched in 6-7 years at least. And this is on a main road.

 

[Horizon22]

Because the people who actually did the work will have been given the job to clear one specified drain. One of the big issues with contracting out is that there is no scope for the "and while you're at it, please do the other four nearby at the same time." That would be a new job at additional cost.

If people had pride in their job (and were not poorly paid outsourced staff) they'd just proactively do it and have a look around for what would probably be a few extra minutes.

It is mostly a very easy job and immediately after autumn, naturally leaves clog up the drains. Not to mention how it can also cause localised flooding.

 

[Bald Rick]

If people had pride in their job (and were not poorly paid outsourced staff)

I doubt the outsourced staff are poorly paid.

 

[Hadlow Road]

I doubt the outsourced staff are poorly paid.

Well, their employers might not be..

 

[Dr Hoo]

In the wilds of Derbyshire I’m obviously fortunate in seeing the gully emptier at work on the minor unclassified road past my house a couple of times per year. It does every drain rather than just blocked or reported ones. Unfortunately there is so much loose gravel, leaves and so on coming from frontaging unsurfaced tracks, etc. that they all get completely filled again every time that it rains heavily. A river just sluices down the 1:5 hill.
They really need cleaning out about once per month.

 

[GusB]

I don't recall seeing a gulley motor in recent years. Prior to the introduction of single-tier councils in 1996 it was the responsibility of the old regional council water department, but those functions were hived off to the then North of Scotland Water, before it was merged to become Scottish Water. The road sweepers were operated by the cleansing department of the district council and the new council retained that function. I do still occasionally see one, but nowhere near as often - I'm fairly certain it used to be weekly.

 

[Belperpete]

Because the people who actually did the work will have been given the job to clear one specified drain. One of the big issues with contracting out is that there is no scope for the "and while you're at it, please do the other four nearby at the same time." That would be a new job at additional cost.

An even better operating model would be to allow the pump-put gang to use their own initiative in places, and reward them for doing so.

You are seriously proposing to reward people for taking longer to do a job? "I only cleared one drain on today's list because I decided to clear all the others in that road too - how much bonus do I get for that?"

 

[david1212]

Of course this is correct, but I would hope that most councils could afford at last one gulley sucker & operative. Not clearing drains is false economy, it probably leads to more expense in the long run.

Because the people who actually did the work will have been given the job to clear one specified drain. One of the big issues with contracting out is that there is no scope for the "and while you're at it, please do the other four nearby at the same time." That would be a new job at additional cost.

An even better operating model would be to allow the pump-put gang to use their own initiative in places, and reward them for doing so.

Contracting out when a service has an ongoing requirement is the problem - maybe for discussion on a new thread.

How can it be lower cost to pay a contractor given their business plan is based on profit for exactly the same service, work etc. than to have the staff in-house? The only way the contractor can be cheaper is for less to be done be that labour, procedure, inferior materials..... The council of course can get away with this where as in-house they could not. Add in also on both sides the costs of tendering for contracts and for the chosen contractor the additional cost to the council for management and accounts. The reality of course is the councils can duck any issues by blaming the contractor.

Local to me a few years ago a lot of money was spent in a park. One task was the drains being dug out and new pipes installed. Now look in and they are full just as before the work....

On my estate several weeks ago someone had been round with yellow paint including marking two drains. These have been full since I started walking around in 2020. They are still full. If in house no need for ' yellow paint man ' but simply task the crew with go around ' this area ' and empty all the drains. If all are properly recorded give them a map be it paper or on an electronic device.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2024 ==

Of course this is correct, but I would hope that most councils could afford at last one gulley sucker & operative. Not clearing drains is false economy, it probably leads to more expense in the long run.

Because the people who actually did the work will have been given the job to clear one specified drain. One of the big issues with contracting out is that there is no scope for the "and while you're at it, please do the other four nearby at the same time." That would be a new job at additional cost.

An even better operating model would be to allow the pump-put gang to use their own initiative in places, and reward them for doing so.

Contracting out when a service has an ongoing requirement is the problem - maybe for discussion on a new thread.

How can it be lower cost to pay a contractor given their business plan is based on profit for exactly the same service, work etc. than to have the staff in-house? The only way the contractor can be cheaper is for less to be done be that labour, procedure, inferior materials..... The council of course can get away with this where as in-house they could not. Add in also on both sides the costs of tendering for contracts and for the chosen contractor the additional cost to the council for management and accounts. The reality of course is the councils can duck any issues by blaming the contractor.

Local to me a few years ago a lot of money was spent in a park. One task was the drains being dug out and new pipes installed. Now look in and they are full.

On my estate several weeks ago someone had been round with yellow paint including marking two drains. These have been full since I started walking around in 2020. They are still full. If in house no need for ' yellow paint man ' but simply task the crew with go around ' this area ' and empty all the drains. If all are properly recorded even give them a map be it paper or on an electronic device.

 

[gswindale]

Contracting out when a service has an ongoing requirement is the problem - maybe for discussion on a new thread.

How can it be lower cost to pay a contractor given their business plan is based on profit for exactly the same service, work etc. than to have the staff in-house? The only way the contractor can be cheaper is for less to be done be that labour, procedure, inferior materials..... The council of course can get away with this where as in-house they could not. Add in also on both sides the costs of tendering for contracts and for the chosen contractor the additional cost to the council for management and accounts. The reality of course is the councils can duck any issues by blaming the contractor.

Just out of interest, how much use would a normal gully cleaning vehicle see per Local Authority area? If, for example, Wokingham, Bracknell & Reading councils all purchased the same number of vehicles, but the overall usage was less than 120 days per year per council, then surely they would save money by either combining forces to purchase 1/3 of the number of vehicles and sharing out the usage or setting up a joint contract with their service provider of choice.

 

[Nottingham59]

You are seriously proposing to reward people for taking longer to do a job? "I only cleared one drain on today's list because I decided to clear all the others in that road too - how much bonus do I get for that?"

It's called trust. But that only works with an in house workforce with effective management.

It doesn't work with the standard govenment procurement model of contracting out with repeated tenders determined solely on price.

 

[HSTEd]

Unfortunately social care is consuming local government funding, which means more money would need to come from central london (or council taxes would need to be uncapped).

And obviously various elderly payments and services are consuming central government funding, so even with political will there would be precious little additional money.

I am not sure how many drains there are in the UK, but its probably well over a million.
Keeping them clear will require hundreds of staff, who will have to be paid for by someone.

 

[gswindale]

Unfortunately social care is consuming local government funding, which means more money would need to come from central london (or council taxes would need to be uncapped).

And obviously various elderly payments and services are consuming central government funding, so even with political will there would be precious little additional money.

I am not sure how many drains there are in the UK, but its probably well over a million.
Keeping them clear will require hundreds of staff, who will have to be paid for by someone.

But would it require more staff if each LA kept it in-house or if contracts were setup with various companies to provide services to multiple LAs?

 

[david1212]

Just out of interest, how much use would a normal gully cleaning vehicle see per Local Authority area? If, for example, Wokingham, Bracknell & Reading councils all purchased the same number of vehicles, but the overall usage was less than 120 days per year per council, then surely they would save money by either combining forces to purchase 1/3 of the number of vehicles and sharing out the usage or setting up a joint contract with their service provider of choice.

The useage of course depends on the area covered and the time schedule between cleaning.
Where a specific council be that district, metropolitan or county does not utilise equipment most of the time then it should be shared across adjacent councils. If genuinely the most economic way long term lease or hire rather than buy the equipment but use your directly employed multi-skilled staff.

 

[Bald Rick]

Contracting out when a service has an ongoing requirement is the problem - maybe for discussion on a new thread.

How can it be lower cost to pay a contractor given their business plan is based on profit for exactly the same service, work etc. than to have the staff in-house?

The principle being that if a council doesnt need the services of a gully cleaning team full time, they can buy in a part time service.

On my estate several weeks ago someone had been round with yellow paint including marking two drains.

I have wondered that if, just after the techs have been round spraying the drains that are to be done, if some enterprising fellow got a spraycan of the same paint and sprayed the rest, if anyone would notice….

 

[Belperpete]

How can it be lower cost to pay a contractor given their business plan is based on profit for exactly the same service, work etc. than to have the staff in-house? The only way the contractor can be cheaper is for less to be done be that labour, procedure, inferior materials.....

In my experience, the first thing the contractors do is to cut the wages of the staff, revise their working conditions, etc, in order to cut costs. Resulting in loss of staff, high turnover, and demoralised staff who have no interest in doing a good job. The contractors also cut costs by doing only the absolute minimum required by the contract.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2024 ==

The principle being that if a council doesnt need the services of a gully cleaning team full time, they can buy in a part time service.

Or perhaps more pertinently, if they can't afford the costs, they can just keep paring the service back without anyone complaining. Until eventually people start noticing that the gullies aren't being cleared anymore.

 

[PG]

I have wondered that if, just after the techs have been round spraying the drains that are to be done, if some enterprising fellow got a spraycan of the same paint and sprayed the reat, if anyone would notice….

If said enterprising fellow has a spare fiver then this should do the trick...

Image of a can of paint

 

[Mojo]

I see my council come round to clean the drain outside my house several times a year. It’s normally a team of two, one driving the vehicle and the other operating the hose / pipe on the side. They then spray a spot on the cover of the drain and the kerb, either blue or white, one colour if it has been done and a different colour if they weren’t able to do it because a car was parked on top of it.

I’d say they only manage to clean less than a quarter of drains due to parked cars.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I see my council come round to clean the drain outside my house several times a year. It’s normally a team of two, one driving the vehicle and the other operating the hose / pipe on the side. They then spray a spot on the cover of the drain and the kerb, either blue or white, one colour if it has been done and a different colour if they weren’t able to do it because a car was parked on top of it.

I’d say they only manage to clean less than a quarter of drains due to parked cars.

Where we are, they'll tow away anyone who blocks the gully cleaning operation...

 

[barringtoncem]

Since i moved to my present location over ten years ago i have seen the drains being cleaned despite contacting the local mp/county councillor/the relevant council with photographic evidence & location and as they have not been cleaned when there is heavy rain the street floods as there is no where for the water to go

 

[DarloRich]

ARGH! THERE IS NO MONEY! This kind of thing drives me mad. Kenny, get me zantac!

Council funding has been cut beyond the bone in the last 15 years. They can barely keep critical ( actually critical) services like refuse collection, safeguarding & social care running let alone funding secondary tasks like this.

Don't vote Tory and brexit and expect good services!

PS - it is vastly frustrating when road drains are blocked for the want of a pretty simple task but there we are. Worse are the drains, like the one next to me that is blocked with waste cement from some building works. That drain will never work properly again. At least mine drains slowly.