Who would have through that.....

[LilLoaf]

Will someone please explain to me whats wrong with the following things to do with the railway.

222 EMT on Sheffiled services
XC (in general)
FGW HST Referbished sets

The reason why i ask this is because i done an ALR about a month or so ago and all of these and found no problem at all with them (apart from EMT 222 engines).

Now EMT 222's on Sheffield services, i realise that many people prefer the HST's becuase they are old and have power cars and all the rest of it. However when i boarded the 222 at Sheffield i found it was clean, well lit, and was really nice and colourful inside. Who would have thought purple seats and Orange floors would work? There was plenty of space for luggage, seats were very comfortable, and it was not too busy. It was about 90% full. Plenty of seats for everyone, plenty of room. The trains are sleek and modern, perfect enviroment to be in. There was a problem with the engines and the train got terminated at Derby but this doesn't happen of every service. Does it? What i'm saying is inside they were brill.

XC when i took my trip on SERVERAL XC services. Timekeeping was great, staff friendly, XC Referbs were brill and train not too busy. XC has done a great job with the HST's and put them on senciable services (the ones that go through Birmingham on rush hour). The voyagers i went on were also great they were not too busy and they are again very nice, clean, modern trains. Last year i had nothing but trouble with XC, delays, overcrowding, seat reservations etc, but all these issues have been resolved. Yes there will still be the occasional overcrowded voyager but the situation is better.

FGW HST's. They are colourfull inside and out, i really like the colours that FGW use. There are more seats and the leg room is fine (i am 6ft) and they are nice and comfoartable. Luggage fits nicely in the places provided and there are a lot more seats in them now. Some tables have been lost but there are still some left. The seats with no tables are great anyway and they are really comfortable.


So whats all the fuss about?

 

[222001]

Now EMT 222's on Sheffield services, i realise that many people prefer the HST's becuase they are old and have power cars and all the rest of it. However when i boarded the 222 at Sheffield i found it was clean, well lit, and was really nice and colourful inside. Who would have thought purple seats and Orange floors would work? There was plenty of space for luggage, seats were very comfortable, and it was not too busy. It was about 90% full. Plenty of seats for everyone, plenty of room. The trains are sleek and modern, perfect enviroment to be in. There was a problem with the engines and the train got terminated at Derby but this doesn't happen of every service. Does it? What i'm saying is inside they were brill.

Out of all the times I have been on 222s this has only happened once. They are ok most of the time. 222007 lost 3 out of the 5 engines. And yes the Meridian interior is fantastic! I hope EMT don't ruin it!
Was it a 5 car or 7 car Meridian you were on?

 

[gordonthemoron]

the trouble I have found with XC voyagers is that the leg room is so variable (i'm talking about airline seats), some have loads and some have next to none

 

[LilLoaf]

It was a 7 car set i was but only 3 engines were working leaving Sheffield, 2 after Chesterfield. Got terminated at Derby. Its a shame cos i've said i really like the 222's and the 221-220 come to that. Its time the HST's were replaced anyway FGW have done a great job to referbished them but its time for a whole new train. 220-221-222 are a great replacement but they need to be 7 carriages at least. They would need to be about 8-9 if NXEC used them. I hope they do. Great trains really impressed.

Your are write Gordon about the leg roon on the XC voyagers. I sat in one of the seats where there is little legroom. Was a bit cramped but too be hounest i just spread my legs over towards the feet area next to be as it wasn't too busy. Had a really pleasent journey with the XC voyager.

 

[stut]

Well, from my own point of view:

The 222s' seats are great. The comfort level and layout are good, and I enjoy travelling on them. The big downside is the engine noise and vibration, which becomes more trying on longer routes, such as Sheffield.

XC in general, well, a number of problems there. First off, most of the XC services I use are on 170s, and the recent refurbishment has been a disaster. The seat pitch is bad to the point where I can't physically fit into an 'airline' seat (and try finding a table seat on a packed Stansted-Brum peak service).

The Voyagers are better, comfort-wise, but there are too few carriages. I've never been on an XC Voyager service that hasn't been hopelessly overcrowded. I don't mind standing, or sitting apart from travelling companions on a short hop, but on a long, cross-country journey, this just isn't acceptable.

The final problem for XC is the fares. When I use XC, it's for business, and I can't commit to specific trains. I also don't have an unlimited budget. The fare 'simplifications' managed to sneak in some massive, under-the-radar price hikes (by extending peak hours, where peak hours applied, etc) which makes even a shortish journey from Peterborough to Brum quite an extravagance.

FGW HSTs - I have two problems with Standard class in these: the lack of tables and the windows. The legroom is good and the new seats are very comfy - I don't like the 'dynamic lines' style, but that's minor. A two-seat is fine if you're alone or in a pair, but in a larger group, be it for work or with family, it's hopeless, particularly given how tall the new seats are. This height also leaves it feeling much more cramped, with a poor window view compared to sitting round a table. The windows, well, I'm all for environmentally conscious upgrades, but the reflective coating means that, in anything but bright sunlight, you can barely see out. When you do, the view is 50% reflection, 50% outdoors.

Most of these aren't huge issues, but they're a combination of the little things that give rail travel the edge over other forms.

 

[daccer]

I also did an ALR last year after being out of the country for several years. I was pleasently surprised by the state of the network. I worked for BR in the 80's and i thought things had moved on immensely.

All of the points made by the original contributer are i think valid. it is a tricky thing to deal with overcrowding. On my trip the only time i stood was on an XC voyager from Bristol to Exeter and on a NXEC trip to Edinburgh during the fringe. I did avoid rush hour commuter services by and large so i know it is not a comprehensive review of the network.

If the trains were empty we wouold be moaning about wasted capacity. They are a victim of their own success by and large. There are external factors at play but I thought the whole travel experience much improve from the 80's.

i think there is a major issue with XC and the rolling stock available to them. I think though that this will be an ongoing problem for a TOC that experiences rapidly fluctuating flows on its routes and sees overcrowding mainly at certain timesof year and only on certain core sections. Unless you divide trains en route i am not sure how this can be managed. The use of HST's through the core does help but I think XC is one TOC were they need to look more carefully at the type of stock being used. It has traditionally been a cinderella business picking up other areas cast offs but now it needs stock that is tailored to long journeys with peaks and troughs of usage. What that stock is - who knows but the IEP with its variable train lengths does seem to fit the bill.

Slightly off the point but i think the next five years are going to be very exciting. For once investmnet seems to be ahead of the growth curve so some off the common gripes about the network may start to disappear.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Last time I was on an XC voyager it was for three hours, Reading to Warrington, two words, numb bum, then you have two issues which is also on the Meridians, luggage space and noise.

My last trip on a Meridian was rubbish, its a long story but 20 minutes delay because two coaches weren't in the platform and the rear door of the eighth coach was staff only!

The Meridian's problems as I see it are:

• Not enough luggage space (the overhead racks are virtually useless compared with an HST, and there aren't enough big racks)
• The HSTs have non-public access doors in eight coaches, why do Meridians need nearly twice that (2 in every 5 car unit)?
• 5 car sets in multiple are too long for half the stations they stop at.
• The aircon is too cold!

 

[222001]

It was a 7 car set i was but only 3 engines were working leaving Sheffield, 2 after Chesterfield. Got terminated at Derby.

Wow that was one sick 7 car 222! The minimum I've ever seen a 7 car 222 running on is 5 engines so you must have just been unlucky. Normally 6 out of the 7 engines are working on normal day to day runnings. I think once 3 out of the 7 engines have failed it puts massive strain on the engines left and they can't take it so they cut out.
Did they bring out another 7 car 222 to replace the broken one (they only have one spare)?

Also after travelling on a two Voyagers today between Chesterfield and Derby (I normally get Meridians but missed them) I decided that all the Voyagers need are a little interior design work. Bring them up to Meridians standards and they will be a lot better.

 

[Waverley125]

I have severl problems

222s: they're nice when not full. Unfortunatley when people are stood up the canted nature of ther sides makes them seem very cramped-this is the same on all modern new trains that have followed this very tight body shape. I hope NXEC never use them, especially as they're diesels. There's nothing wrong with a slab-sided train design when the train does not need to tilt. Benefits accrued from tilting on the ECML would be minimal.

XC: I've had few problems with XC, but their refurb of the 170s has been poor, particuarly as they've tried to put an extra set of airline seats in where the luggage racks once were, meaning anyone over 5'6'' has their knees jammed against the seat in front.

FGW HSTs: these are long-distance trains, and should be configured as such. FGW has redesigned them for the reading-paddington commuter route, ignoring the other 200 miles of line west of reading. Tables, seats aligned with windows and an ability to see out of said windows is what attracts people to rail. These aren't good enough, and should be redesigned. Basically, anyone who wants to be comfortable going to Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance has to go first class to get the sort of layout that should be the norm

 

[LilLoaf]

Wow that was one sick 7 car 222! The minimum I've ever seen a 7 car 222 running on is 5 engines so you must have just been unlucky. Normally 6 out of the 7 engines are working on normal day to day runnings. I think once 3 out of the 7 engines have failed it puts massive strain on the engines left and they can't take it so they cut out.
Did they bring out another 7 car 222 to replace the broken one (they only have one spare)?


Yeah i've got a lot of experience of travelling on the 22X units and the engines have never been as bad as on that one i mentioned. I expect i did just catch them on a very bad day as the other times i used them they've been great.

No they took the 7 car set of at Derby (Just managed to get to derby thought we were gonna get really stuck at Belper). They replaced it with a 5 car set thats EMT for you. I wasn't impressed with any other aspect of EMT by the way other than the 222's inside. The HST was filthy, trains were late, don't get me started on them daft 153's.

It terms of the engine noise coming from 22X units, i don't see as the title of the thread says, what all the fuss is about. They are not that bad.

Luggage rack issue's - serveral people have mentioned there are not enough space of 22X. Correct (when used on holiday services to Newquey, Paignton, Penzance etc). All the ones i was on in the space of a week the luggage fitted in fine. Extra space has been made for luggage on the XC units, not sure about the EMT ones. Plenty of space also on the FGW.

I do agree with the points raised about the XC 170's there aint much space in the 2 coach ones. I wish XC would keep them on Leicester locals and Birmingham - Nottingham but they are interlinked with the Stansted's.

Thats for the opinions keep em coming.

 

[devon_metro]

FGW HSTs: these are long-distance trains, and should be configured as such. FGW has redesigned them for the reading-paddington commuter route, ignoring the other 200 miles of line west of reading. Tables, seats aligned with windows and an ability to see out of said windows is what attracts people to rail. These aren't good enough, and should be redesigned. Basically, anyone who wants to be comfortable going to Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance has to go first class to get the sort of layout that should be the norm

However, many of the peak hour trains out of Paddington (and into) are full and standing before they even touch Reading!

Try travelling on either the 0842 or 1000 Penzance - Paddingtons in the holiday period. Good luck getting a seat at Plymouth!!!! So are you suggesting removing them so that a few extra tables are added and more people have to stand and chose never to use a train again?

The unrefurb HSTs were a mess and very tired, just look at the EMT ones. They look like a step back to the 80s/90s!

 

[richa2002]

Um, EMT HSTs do not look like a step back into the 80s/90s at all. Hell of a lot more comfortable and less claustrophobic than the nonsense on FGW.

 

[devon_metro]

I think they look awful. I'm sure many norms would love to be able to plug their laptops in

Not to forget the seats that were designed for people in the 70s, when the average height was obviously lower. Can't imagine how uncomfortable they are for people taller than 5"8!!

 

[me123]

In reality, people in the 1970s were only a few centimetres shorter (on average) than we are. There would still be plenty of people over 5"8 in those days, enough for BR to account for them when outfitting trains. You can't really use that as an excuse to get more legroom

 

[AlexS]

EMT 5 car 222s are inappropriate for Sheffield trains.

When the 1918 (or whatever it's retimed to now) from Derby to London departs Derby let alone Leicester, people are stood all the way down the aisles all the way along the train including first class, usually complete with BTP stood there because someone has kicked off over not being able to get on.

XC use 2 car 170s on peak Birmingham to Leicester trains. That doesn't work either. I couldn't physically get on one last Friday.

 

[tbtc]

Will someone please explain to me whats wrong with the following things to do with the railway.

222 EMT on Sheffiled services

Now EMT 222's on Sheffield services, i realise that many people prefer the HST's becuase they are old and have power cars and all the rest of it. However when i boarded the 222 at Sheffield i found it was clean, well lit, and was really nice and colourful inside. Who would have thought purple seats and Orange floors would work? There was plenty of space for luggage, seats were very comfortable, and it was not too busy. It was about 90% full. Plenty of seats for everyone, plenty of room.

So whats all the fuss about?

It was a 7 car set i was

You've answered your own question.

If a seven coach train on the hourly Sheffield to London service is 90% full, then try cramming on a five coach train...

Like the Voyagers, they'd be nice enough if they were long enough (the 222s have learned a few lessons from Voyager design, to be fair), but how do you replace an hourly HST with an hourly 222 (many of which are half sized)?

Don't quote me on this, but even a seven coach 222 has fewer seats than a similar length HST IIRC.

I envy the people of Nottingham

 

[CCF23]

The first and last time i went on a XC voyager was from Leamington Spa to Wolverhampton last Wednesday i was only on it after my WSMR train (67014) had broken down and was stationary for 2 hours halfway between Banbury and Leamington Spa before being taken into Leamington Spa by 67008. This train was for Manchester and was very busy although there were some available spaces in first class which my 11 year old brother took advantage of the friendly train manager spoke to us and we explained our situation after a while more seats became available in first with no one needing them so the train manager said he didn't mind us seating there (me, my brother, my dad and an old lady we had met on the W&S) A member of the train crew were very nice and offered us drinks which me being only 14 and my brother took. Overall the voyager was comfortable although i only have an opinion from first class but the rest of the train looked very cramped. p.s sorry for the long post.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I personally love the EMT 222's, although i've only taken 2 seperate trips on them, both in FC: Derby-St Pancras, and Nottingham-St Pancras.

I think that Virgin Trains should have waited for a "smaller" Intercity TOC, like EMT, to roll out their version of 222's/Voyagers etc, and allowed Virgin to produce a "beta" version of the trains, with relevant adjustments/modifications, etc, simply because at the time the Voyagers were introduced, Virgin had one of the most extensive rail networks within the UK, and so the Voyagers were given a seriously intensive test, whereas i feel that EMT would have been able to do a better job, as they have a smaller network, although that could be wrong.

I also think that VT should have retained a large number of HST sets before the Voyagers were fully introduced, and modified to make them as good as reasonably possible, although i don't really have any proper knowledge in this subject.

 

[tbtc]

I think that Virgin Trains should have waited for a "smaller" Intercity TOC, like EMT, to roll out their version of 222's/Voyagers etc, and allowed Virgin to produce a "beta" version of the trains, with relevant adjustments/modifications, etc, simply because at the time the Voyagers were introduced, Virgin had one of the most extensive rail networks within the UK, and so the Voyagers were given a seriously intensive test, whereas i feel that EMT would have been able to do a better job, as they have a smaller network, although that could be wrong.

I also think that VT should have retained a large number of HST sets before the Voyagers were fully introduced, and modified to make them as good as reasonably possible, although i don't really have any proper knowledge in this subject.

That's a good point.

Voyagers were basicaly version 1.0, which always means teething troubles, you don't know what to expect. It was a long time since any comparable stock was introduced to our railways (e.g. long intercity diesel trains, rather than just sprinters), so there was probably a lot of things that could have been done better in hindsight.

In answer to your second point, Virgin were planning on keeping a number of five coach HST rakes, to run alongside the Voyagers, but this didn't happen.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Thanks

I thought i remembered there originally being plans to keep a small batch of HST challengers, but couldn't remember 100%

 

[adc82140]

The FGW HST standard class refurb is one of the reasons I've shelled out the extra and upgraded my season ticket to FC. I just find the SC seats too uncomfortable!! The leather seats in FC are good, though if there's an unrefurbished FGW spec coach F in the consist, I'll head there as these seats are even better. I find that the ex MML Rio unrefurbished coach Fs (the ones with the brown seats) are rotten- what's with those wing things on the head rests??- Eurostar are guilty of those as well!!

I've recently travelled on EMT on both an HST and a 222- the HST was indeed a throwback to the 70s and smelt slightly odd, wheras I foud the 222 to be a quite pleasant experience.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Despite HSTs having the really nice, traditional "arm chair" seating, compared to the more modern seats on 222's, i actually prefer the ride on 222's, although i'm talking about FC on both.

 

[222001]

Just to make people aware that from Monday the Sheffield-London Meridians will all be seven car apart from - 0855 and 2055 North, 1127 South. They have changed the diagrams to start the Corby services (nearly all of which are now 5 car).

Also I do not believe that the 1918 from Derby is massivly overcrowded everyday. You really must have got that on a bad day as whenever I see it leave Derby there is hardly anyone on it! Was it a normal weekday (there must have been an event on or something)?

 

[tbtc]

Just to make people aware that from Monday the Sheffield-London Meridians will all be seven car

Excellent news

 

[Edvid]

101 was on the 0517 DBY-STP this morning. Now that the diagrams have been altered again, was that normal?

Don't quote me on this, but even a seven coach 222 has fewer seats than a similar length HST IIRC.

That's right, here are some figures from a few months ago (HST figures are for 2+8 formations). Even with a 2+7 HST you're still talking about 393-450 seats depending on the 'missing' carriage.

 

[fgwrich]

Ok... heres mine...

222's... Never liked them in general... ok theyre supposed to be a upgraded Voyager, but they suffer most of the same problems with the 220, engine wise mostly casued by there Rheostatic braking system... and so, after a few years in use, this can leave the engines shaking horribly and out of ballance with each other... mostly noticeable when leaving stations...

Dont like the interior of either units,on the 220's i find them rather cramped and poorly layed out, on the 222's i find them to high and hard...

Mind you, last time i was on a 222, was when the ECML was shut between Stevenage & Hertford, and so i was bussed from FCC at Hertford all the way to Luton Airport Parkway where i caught a MML service from there... the 222 was full & standing all the way to St Pancras, Luggage was all over the Vestubles, seats were had, no Buffet facilites avilible, carpets were stained and just like a voyager, the journey was rather the same.... not good

AXC... Dont get me started on them... down here in basingstoke, there just about always late, then the Excuses start to flow out... last summer, they used the excuse of Leaves on the line were to blame in the middle of August... Then theres the Fare increases... XC was already quite highly priced before Arrivas 11% increase in January... The loss of the on board Shops really is one very very poor desicion, not just for the custemers, staff and also any company that takes the Cross Country Franchise next time...

As typical of AXC, somehow they belive that taking out the on board shop and re-arranging a few seats would increase the amount of space on there Voyager fleet... Well let me tell you... No it hasnt... Even last friday they sent a delayed shop less 220 on the Bournemouth to Manchester Picadilly... Fortunatly as i was only going to Reading i caught a almost empty FGW 165 5 mins later instead...as the Voyager was full and standing... So hows the trolley supposed to get down the train ?

As for the way there supposed to be running said trolley, from what i was told, itll run from Bournemouth throught the train to First Class, service First Class, pack up First class and run down the train again...to pack up everything by Coventry...So what are you supposed to do if you get on at New Street ?

And i certainly still remeber this...http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/cont...lands_s15_w1_overcrowding_video_feature.shtml

and the thread that came with it...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21592

But to be honest, theyve done absolutly nothing to solve it, other than remove the shop and make it worse... and even speacking to some of XC's staff... some of them can be supprisingly helpfull...It seems that all the staff agree with the passengers... but its up in management that cant give a toss... and its the same management that cant even bear to use there own trains... how bad is that !

One thing i remeber AXC saying when they decided to remove the Shop, is that they had research conducted out by First Great Western that passengers acutallly preferd a trolley to a Shop/Buffet Car... Funny that, as FGW never actually conducted any research and that FGW's now adding Mini Buffets into there HST rakes... and not a Trolley...

I could also mention another bad experiacne ive had with AXC but i think ive written enough here... mind you... they might be running HST's on the South West North East services but ive still seen single 220's running to Glasgow from Plym...

Finally... First Great Westerns Refurbished HST sets... What do i say... To be honest, i think there very good for what they are... And i agree with Devon Metro... Afterall, the original Interior was rather outdated and when FGW came up with there 3 concept Coaches in 2006... Custemers then complained that there wasnt enough seating,and that the concept seats were to sharp etc...So then then came up with what we have today...Which unfortunatly has had to balance the contrast between High Speed long distance services and not so long Commuter services...

And anyway... how can we complain about about the FGW HST seats - how cramped they are etc.. when look at AXC & Nat Ex's ... And the interior of the 222's... afterall, they have one individual seat for 2 people!
AXC http://rollingstock.fotopic.net/p54272742.html
222 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Rail_Class_222_Coach_Interior.JPG

FGW's Concept Coaches...
http://rollingstock.fotopic.net/p42932440.html
http://rollingstock.fotopic.net/p42930954.html

And to be frank, i think that First Great Western has done well with the refurbs... ok there not up to some people's standards... but we all have a different opinion of everything dont we?:roll:

rich
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Forgot to mention that in summer and on the Newquay's, First Great Western actually splits up a rake at either the Oak or Laira, to add a extra coach for lugguage & surfboards etc... and are usally placed behing the TGS...

Also... whilst mentioning AXC... me wonders how they are going to cope this summer on the Newquays... whats the betting that a Voyager will be running on one of them...

rich

 

[adc82140]

Interesting... apart fom the seats themselves, the FGW concept examples are pretty much the same as the production ones. Just glad they didn't proceed with the dynamic lines wall decorations!!

I think a lot of the criticism of the FGW refurb is down to the lighting. It's fine of your TM has chosen to set it to half lit only, but full lighting is migraine inducing, and you get almost 100% reflection in the windows. If AXC style lighting had been used that allows you to see out of the window, the comments about the claustrophobic effect of high backed seats would have been fewer, I think.

 

[fgwrich]

Not to forget the seats that were designed for people in the 70s, when the average height was obviously lower. Can't imagine how uncomfortable they are for people taller than 5"8!!

Mind you.. think that was a BR thing... take the 153's or 150's or even the 317's for example... you could bareley see out of the windows...becasue the seats were so low down...


As for the lighting in FGW's Mk3's... im supprised becasue ive not found them headache inducing... in fact i think SWT's desiros are the worst...

And the longest ive stood in a AXC 220...How about Basingstoke to Birmingham New Street!

Twas just last summer... got on the late 11:47 which arrived at 11:54 to Manchester... and wanting to get off a Reading for London Paddington...Told just outside Bramley by a rather unfair gaurd that the train hadbeen revised at Basingstoke and the first stop would be New Street !

So then me & my freind had to go all the way to new street... get a train back to Oxford & caught a just about empty HST into paddington... i complaind to AXC and all i got back was i should have checked with the On Board Train staff before boarding... yeah and leave my freinds at basingstoke ???

rich

 

[222001]

101 was on the 0517 DBY-STP this morning. Now that the diagrams have been altered again, was that normal?

Yes. The 0517 DBY-STP is down as a 4/5 car Meridian.
The Master Cutler is still a 7 car Meridian but I was on it this morning between Chesterfield and Derby and there were plenty of standard and first class (lots in coach J) seats upon arrival at Derby.

Also fgwrich. You say there are one seat for two people on the Meridians but I find them a lot more comfy than any HST, 220, 221, or any other train as a matter of fact. The seats are just attached. The carpets on 222s are not that bad too. You can't expect them to be pristine after 5 years of service. They are being refurbished next year anyway.

 

[thefab444]

RE FGW HST lighting, most sets have carriage lighting controls in the vestibules, so you can in theory turn the lights off if they're causing that much of a problem. The TM will turn them back on as he/she passes though.

the 317's for example... you could bareley see out of the windows...becasue the seats were so low down...

Indeed, 319s are also a culprit here.

the train hadbeen revised at Basingstoke and the first stop would be New Street

Last summer, the train you mentioned was BOOKED to be fast from Basingstoke to Birmingham; you should've listened the to announcements provided at the station - on platform 4 at Basingstoke that would be the dulcet tones of Celia Drummond; that is what they are there for. Suprised the XC TM didn't try and penalty fare you.