Who should pay for the Valleys Electrification?

[cjmillsnun]

Really I'm sure the scrap yard would make a good home, its one thing cascading late 80's MK3 based stock, but cascading MK2 stock that will be nearly 40 years old is another.

If the stock is structurally sound reliable and can be adapted for today's conditions, what's the issue? Why replace for the sake of replacing?

There are cases where new stock cannot be financially justified.

 

[Gareth Marston]

M4 plan could spell "death knell" for valleys electrification, say environmental campaigners[URL="http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/gwentnews/11143363.M4_plan_could_spell__quot_death_knell_quot__for_valleys_electrification__say_environmental_campaigners/?ref=rss"]http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/gwentnews/11143363.M4_plan_could_spell__quot_death_knell_quot__for_valleys_electrification__say_environmental_campaigners/?ref=rss[/URL]

12:21pm Friday 11th April 2014 in Gwent news

Queuing traffic westbound on the M4 between J27 and J28 (5208029)
ENVIRONMENTAL campaigners said the Welsh Government’s preferred M4 plan across the Gwent Levels could spell the “death knell” for valleys railways electrification.

Environmental coalition, the Campaign Against the Levels Motorway (Calm), believes that the proposal, if advanced, would end any hope of the £400 million electrification.

Following recent controversy over who will pay for the upgrade, the campaigners believe it could come down to a choice between the two.

Calm spokesman Gareth Clubb said: “If UK government ministers are to be believed, the Welsh Government has agreed to pay for electrification of the valleys line. But at the same time, Edwina Hart is pushing ahead with plans to build a hugely expensive, environmentally-destructive motorway through the Gwent Levels.


“The Welsh Government hasn’t got a bottomless pot of money for transport projects. At some point it’s going to have to make a choice.”

Calm has urged the government to strongly to consider an alternative M4 proposal from transport expert Professor Stuart Cole. The Blue Route, jointly published by the Institute for Welsh Affairs and the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport, proposes an alternative road that would cost £380 million rather than the planned £936 million project.

It proposes that a new dual carriageway would be built using the Southern Distributor Road and the former Steelworks Road on the eastern side of Newport.

Mr Clubb added: “The Welsh Government can invest in electrification of the valleys and make improvements to the M4 corridor. But it can only afford to do that if it adopts Professor Cole’s Blue Route, which can be delivered sooner and at a fraction of the cost. The Welsh Government’s preferred choice of a new stretch of M4 spells the death knell for electrification of the valleys lines.”

An outline business case for valleys rail electrification – written by the Welsh government in 2012 – estimates the cost at between £309m and £463m. Electrification of the commuter lines in and out of Cardiff is due to be completed between 2019 and 2024.

A spokeswoman for the Welsh government said: “CALM is wrong. This is not a case of 'either, or' as any M4 enhancement would need to be complementary with public transport improvements."

She added discussions were ongoing with the UK regarding the funding of Valleys line electrification and all responses to the M4 consultation, including any alternatives proposed, are being considered and an announcement is due in the summer.

 

[WatcherZero]

Welsh Ministers have now officially dropped the 'pretense' that there was an understanding that Westminster would pay for the Valley Lines according to the Welsh Secretary. The understanding always was Westminster would pay for the GWML to Swansea while WAG would pay for the Valley Lines.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-27308029

 

[Gareth Marston]

Welsh Ministers have now officially dropped the 'pretense' that there was an understanding that Westminster would pay for the Valley Lines according to the Welsh Secretary. The understanding always was Westminster would pay for the GWML to Swansea while WAG would pay for the Valley Lines.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-27308029

If the BBC have got there facts straight its good news in that the works will go ahead with the necessary funding in place. I'll leave comment about victors and losers to others!

 

[ainsworth74]

So, after all that, are things now back on track?

 

[Chris125]

So, after all that, are things now back on track?

It's looking hopeful, but it appears negotiations are still ongoing...

Chris

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's looking hopeful, but it appears negotiations are still ongoing...
Chris

The WG will need to find some funding for it.
As I understand it, it is NR's borrowing costs on the capital that require funding.
The Cardiff-Bridgend section is critical to the IEP project to Swansea (DfT is funding the rest of the main line).

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes though via the roundabout way of higher track access charges and the Wales franchise requiring more subsidy/lower premiums from the Welsh Government in return, the same Westminister will be doing with FGW for the line to Swansea.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes though via the roundabout way of higher track access charges and the Wales franchise requiring more subsidy/lower premiums from the Welsh Government in return, the same Westminister will be doing with FGW for the line to Swansea.

Track Access was reduced from a "real amount" to a reduced sum so that the private franchise holders would stay aboard and the government subsidy was channeled into Network Rail after Railtrack melted down so its all a bit spurious anyway. Suffice to say WG will be "making a contribution".

 

[gareth950]

I can't find an online source for this yet, but there was a piece on BBC Wales Today at 1:30pm today about this story again. Apparently the WG still hasn't formally agreed to fund the electrification of the Valley lines, meaning according to the UK government Welsh secretary the valleys electrification is 'under threat'.

When exactly is work due to start on this? I thought the first lines were to be electrified by 2018-19, with the rest by 2024. Sounds like we could be waiting into the 2030s, or perhaps never.

I say just order new fleets of DMUs and be done with it. The thought of Pacers on the valleys until 2030 and beyond

 

[Class 170101]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-28091378

 

[Gareth Marston]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-28091378

Cancel the A483 Newtown Bypass and use that money c£80 million makes sense to me

 

[anthony263]

Cancel the A483 Newtown Bypass and use that money c£80 million makes sense to me

There you go easy answer to fixing the whole problem.

As for new dmu's perhaps the Snow hill lines to Kidderminster should be wired and London Midlands class 172's sent to the Cardiff Valleys

 

[edwin_m]

Why would wiring Snow Hill be any cheaper than wiring the Valleys? Or is this some ruse to get the English to pay?

 

[Wolfie]

There you go easy answer to fixing the whole problem.

As for new dmu's perhaps the Snow hill lines to Kidderminster should be wired and London Midlands class 172's sent to the Cardiff Valleys

Thgere are plenty of places in England need more DMUs if the Snow Hill line was wired - why do you assume the 172s would go to Wales to enable the Wesh Govt to keep its hands in its pockets?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why would wiring Snow Hill be any cheaper than wiring the Valleys? Or is this some ruse to get the English to pay?

Indeed!

 

[anthony263]

Of course it is possible to send the class 172s elsewhere around the UK. I am sure otehr TOC's would be interested