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Who should deal with Delay Repay claims?

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zcacmxi

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Semantics aside, railways rules aside, as a rail user I think it'd be 'easier' if my dealings were all with one TOC. They've done the first bit, I buy the ticket from SE, I pay SE, they divi up the proceed between themselves. I don't have to deal with each TOC in the purchase of the ticket. They have a 'settlement process'

Likewise when there is a delay, it would be an added convenience for my 'ticketting TOC' to deal with it. Probably quite complex, it is how it is.
It's a convenience already that when the trains are delayed due to 'Network Rail', TOCs deal with them and passenger does not have to.
 
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BrianW

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Semantics aside, railways rules aside, as a rail user I think it'd be 'easier' if my dealings were all with one TOC. They've done the first bit, I buy the ticket from SE, I pay SE, they divi up the proceed between themselves. I don't have to deal with each TOC in the purchase of the ticket. They have a 'settlement process'

Likewise when there is a delay, it would be an added convenience for my 'ticketting TOC' to deal with it. Probably quite complex, it is how it is.
It's a convenience already that when the trains are delayed due to 'Network Rail', TOCs deal with them and passenger does not have to.
Hopefully with Great British Railways such fault/ liability/ organisational allocation will be a thing of the past- maybe trains will run on time?
Delayed passengers should not be expected to work it out; AND delay-repay should be announced on all late-running trains.
Better still abolish it as we all pay for it one way or another. Has it made more trains run on time?
 

zcacmxi

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I have often felt that the 'fines / penalties' imposed on 'public utilities' are ultimately paid for by end users in increased fares/charges later.

It is a whole other argument though State / Private... E.g. Is it right for State to bail out Private Banks? Is it right for State/Army to 'bail out' oil companies who haven't foreseen shortage of staff and recruited / trained adequately? Ultimately, public always pays for everything, including their Delay Repay! Should Oil industry pay for the Army drivers? Yes they should... Will Oil Co's increase cost of fuel to pay for it or suffer lower profits? It all comes back to "us".

And we digress.. Why am I claiming Delay Repay? Why am I on the train anyway.
 

yorkie

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Semantics aside, railways rules aside, as a rail user I think it'd be 'easier' if my dealings were all with one TOC. They've done the first bit, I buy the ticket from SE, I pay SE, they divi up the proceed between themselves. I don't have to deal with each TOC in the purchase of the ticket. They have a 'settlement process'

Likewise when there is a delay, it would be an added convenience for my 'ticketting TOC' to deal with it. Probably quite complex, it is how it is.
It's a convenience already that when the trains are delayed due to 'Network Rail', TOCs deal with them and passenger does not have to.
I don't buy tickets from TOCs; if I did, I'd often lose out on being able to choose my seat and I would have purchases from loads of different places, making it difficult to keep track of where I bought each ticket.

My journey could start on any TOC out of Grand Central, Northern, TPE, LNER, TPE or CrossCountry, so it makes no sense for me to buy from a different TOC depending on the TOC whose train I am boarding first.

I agree it would be useful if the retailer dealt with Delay Repay claims in an impartial manner. This would mean the money from the TOC deemed liable would need to pay them, and also the retailer should get their admin charges paid for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It is a whole other argument though State / Private... E.g. Is it right for State to bail out Private Banks? Is it right for State/Army to 'bail out' oil companies who haven't foreseen shortage of staff and recruited / trained adequately? Ultimately, public always pays for everything, including their Delay Repay! Should Oil industry pay for the Army drivers? Yes they should... Will Oil Co's increase cost of fuel to pay for it or suffer lower profits? It all comes back to "us".
This would be best discussed in General Discussion; if you wish to discuss this further, my suggestion would be to create a new thread, then edit your post above to link to the thread.
 

Bletchleyite

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Semantics aside, railways rules aside, as a rail user I think it'd be 'easier' if my dealings were all with one TOC. They've done the first bit, I buy the ticket from SE, I pay SE, they divi up the proceed between themselves. I don't have to deal with each TOC in the purchase of the ticket. They have a 'settlement process'

Likewise when there is a delay, it would be an added convenience for my 'ticketting TOC' to deal with it. Probably quite complex, it is how it is.
It's a convenience already that when the trains are delayed due to 'Network Rail', TOCs deal with them and passenger does not have to.

I think there should be a separate Delay Repay clearing house independent of all TOCs, to which you apply and the relevant TOC(s) is/are billed.
 

yorkie

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I think there should be a separate Delay Repay clearing house independent of all TOCs, to which you apply and the relevant TOC(s) is/are billed.
This would still leave the inconsistency whereby you go to a different organisation for a refund as you would for Delay Repay though.
 

zcacmxi

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I agree a single point to claim Delay Repay is most convenient. But would debate whether 'yet another' organisation to deal with would simplify matters, especially for the majority only making single TOC journeys. They already have a single point of contact with TOC.

The problem only really exists for multiple leg/TOC journeys. Maybe it's not a major problem for most, at least it shouldn't be.

Even as a single TOC user, over the years I've experienced many organisations operating it. BR, Connex, South Eastern Railway (OLR), SouthEastern and now will get OLR again. Previously OLR was best. The Class 464/5 are the only constant.
 

OhNoAPacer

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A single body to deal with delay repay is something I have thought would be a good idea for a while. It would stop the passenger having to know all the ins and outs of which TOC caused the delay. In short I think it would be a simpler system for the passenger.
Taking Yorkies point I can also see the benefit of it handling refunds as well, and thinking from the railway advantage it would seemingly be easier to prevent the claim delay repay and a refund scam if they were all done by one body.
 

zcacmxi

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Potentially a new body is not required? The passenger has already chosen who to deal with when buying the ticket. The 'retailer' could deal with it.

I believe that's how it works when buying anything else as a consumer. Contract is made with whoever takes your money, they may then reclaim from their wholesaler / manufacturer / etc.
 

JonathanH

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Ultimately the long-term answer to delay repay will be e-tickets / PAYG and refunds based on checking the touch in / touch out time against the purchased schedule and any delays caused by the railway with no need for users to make any claims.

I guess one issue with this is that it still doesn't define who makes the payment and does the checking. Perhaps this lends itself to a central clearing point.

However, given many people don't claim at present, this would result in the railway paying out more than it currently does.
 
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OhNoAPacer

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Ultimately the long-term answer to delay repay will be e-tickets / PAYG and refunds based on checking the touch in / touch out time against the purchased schedule and any delays caused by the railway with no need for users to make any claims.

I guess one issue with this is that it still doesn't define who makes the payment and does the checking. Perhaps this lends itself to a central clearing point.

However, given many people don't claim at present, this would result in the railway paying out more than it currently does.
Sounds good, in theory, but how long us this long term going to be? I can also still see where there could be issues where a passenger abandons the rail journey part way through, due to a problem, say a failed train blocking the line, with no time given for either services to resume or if a replacement bus will be provided and passenger just being told to wait forfurtherinformation, so phones a friend for a lift, no touch out to allow an automatic delay calculation there and not the straightforward arrived for train, saw big problems decided not to travel so claimed a refund.
 

py_megapixel

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I think you should simply be able to claim DR from any RDG-accredited retailer. There are so many different operators and brands that the customer is likely to come into contact with - the operators of stations, the operator of their train, the operator of another train that serves the same route and so appeared in their journey planner, and the retailer of their ticket.

Clearly there would have to be some settlement arrangements, but the customer shouldn't have to care about those. They have been inconvenienced on their journey and they should be able to be compensated for it with minimum hassle.
 

matt_world2004

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I wonder how gb rail will deal with delay repay when it crosses into a devolved rail territory. Will gb rail issue refunds for journeys on London Overground. Or arriva trains Wales for example?
 

miklcct

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Semantics aside, railways rules aside, as a rail user I think it'd be 'easier' if my dealings were all with one TOC. They've done the first bit, I buy the ticket from SE, I pay SE, they divi up the proceed between themselves. I don't have to deal with each TOC in the purchase of the ticket. They have a 'settlement process'

Likewise when there is a delay, it would be an added convenience for my 'ticketting TOC' to deal with it. Probably quite complex, it is how it is.
It's a convenience already that when the trains are delayed due to 'Network Rail', TOCs deal with them and passenger does not have to.
I don't see this as a problem here. It is always obvious which train caused you a delay, and the TOC is a critical piece of information to look for in order to board the right train.

This would still leave the inconsistency whereby you go to a different organisation for a refund as you would for Delay Repay though.
Delay Repay and refunds are different matters. The former is about where you actually used the service but it wasn't operated satisfactorily, so you look at the operator which caused you trouble and get compensation there. The latter is where you did not use the service at all.

The EU airline delay compensation also works this way, where the airline itself is directly liable, but the amount isn't tied to ticket prices (i.e. you can be compensated more than the ticket if the delay is sufficiently long).

I believe that's how it works when buying anything else as a consumer. Contract is made with whoever takes your money, they may then reclaim from their wholesaler / manufacturer / etc.
I am dubious about this statement. In the case of train travel, it is very clear that I'm buying service from South Western Railway / whichever TOC despite I'm paying money to Trainsplit. Trainsplit is the only facilitator of a contract between me and the TOC. The same happens if I enter a race organised by ABC orienteering club through the website of xyzraces.example.com and pay it which is a third party where orienteering clubs use them to manage entries.

Sounds good, in theory, but how long us this long term going to be? I can also still see where there could be issues where a passenger abandons the rail journey part way through, due to a problem, say a failed train blocking the line, with no time given for either services to resume or if a replacement bus will be provided and passenger just being told to wait forfurtherinformation, so phones a friend for a lift, no touch out to allow an automatic delay calculation there and not the straightforward arrived for train, saw big problems decided not to travel so claimed a refund.

If using PAYG, this will become an incomplete journey so when the delay is known, the system is instructed not to charge a maximum fare, so the journey is effectively free.

I think you should simply be able to claim DR from any RDG-accredited retailer. There are so many different operators and brands that the customer is likely to come into contact with - the operators of stations, the operator of their train, the operator of another train that serves the same route and so appeared in their journey planner, and the retailer of their ticket.

Clearly there would have to be some settlement arrangements, but the customer shouldn't have to care about those. They have been inconvenienced on their journey and they should be able to be compensated for it with minimum hassle.
I still believe the current model works the best. The train which causes you delay is clearly defined. And in National Rail the operators and brands I come to contact are only the retailer and the operator. The operators of stations are not actually relevant here as it does nothing to your delay normally. Even when you are delayed, the retailer is out of question here as it's the operator job to give you appropriate transportation, so you have at most 2 points of contact only - the operator of the incoming train, and the operator of outgoing train.

Compare the following to passenger airlines, which is a total mess when irregularities happen:
You buy an air ticket from airline AA using frequent flyer miles on a flight BB1234, transferring to CC2345 operated by DD. You now potentially have 4 different airlines to deal with when your flight BB1234 has been delayed, causing you to miss the connection to CC2345.
 

yorkie

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I don't see this as a problem here. It is always obvious which train caused you a delay, and the TOC is a critical piece of information to look for in order to board the right train.
Is it?

See: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...leg-journey-both-delayed.200906/#post-4452150

Delay Repay and refunds are different matters. The former is about where you actually used the service but it wasn't operated satisfactorily, so you look at the operator which caused you trouble and get compensation there. The latter is where you did not use the service at all.
You missed some scenarios, such as:
  • where you embark on a journey, but disruption causes you to abandon it and return to the origin
  • where you make a journey, but not in its entirety due to disruption e.g. you use alternative transport for part of the journey

The EU airline delay compensation also works this way, where the airline itself is directly liable, but the amount isn't tied to ticket prices (i.e. you can be compensated more than the ticket if the delay is sufficiently long).
That's only for very long delays, and the only time I know someone who experienced such a delay, the airline refuted it and refused to pay out.

If using PAYG, this will become an incomplete journey so when the delay is known, the system is instructed not to charge a maximum fare, so the journey is effectively free.
I will invite @MikeWh to consider this claim, but it doesn't sound right to me.

I still believe the current model works the best. The train which causes you delay is clearly defined.
Not always

And in National Rail the operators and brands I come to contact are only the retailer and the operator. The operators of stations are not actually relevant here as it does nothing to your delay normally. Even when you are delayed, the retailer is out of question here as it's the operator job to give you appropriate transportation, so you have at most 2 points of contact only - the operator of the incoming train, and the operator of outgoing train.
The operator who arranges onward transportation may not necessarily be a company you travelled with, e.g. a missed connection at York from XC /Northern on a journey to Scarborough would be resolved by a taxi being organised by LNER.
 

py_megapixel

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The train which causes you delay is clearly defined.
It's generally clearly defined, but except in simple situations is likely not to be obvious, and TOCs take advantage of that currently to avoid paying out claims by claiming that another TOC is responsible.

The operators of stations are not actually relevant here as it does nothing to your delay normally.
But if you go to a station where the operator has plastered their branding everywhere, it would not be unrealistic to assume that they run the trains.

Even when you are delayed, the retailer is out of question here
No it isn't. When I buy something in a shop, my contract is with the shop, not the manufacturer of the item, and it's the shop I have to contact if the item goes wrong.

I still believe the current model works the best.
Why? If you were allowed to claim from any TOC, then if you wanted, you could still work out which TOC was responsible for your delay and claim specifically from them, if you so desired. It would make literally no difference to you.
 
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