Who is right? Season ticket problem

[Bumblebee]

I buy a weekly season ticket for my journey from Leighton Buzzard (LBZ) to Headstone Lane (HDL). I get on the 0746 from LBZ to Euston and I normally get off at Harrow and Wealdstone (HRW) then use the London Overground to go one stop back from HRW to HDL. I have done this since I started my current job. On the London Overground this morning a Revenue Protection Inspector was checking Oyster cards. I showed him my season ticket and he didn't like it. He said that I had got on at Harrow and Wealdstone (which I wasn't disputing). We got off at Headstone Lane and he spoke to me some more before letting me go.

I couldn't understand why he was debating the point as I've done this way of getting to work a lot and I've shown my season ticket to ticket inspectors before. Today is the first time I've had any hassle. The inspector refused to listen to my side of the story and implied that I was trying to fool him when I really was genuinely confused why there was a problem at all. He said, "I'm smart, I know what I'm doing", which really confused me as I hadn't suggested anything like that. I felt he was overly aggressive in suppressing me from explaining my story.

I get off the London Midland train at Harrow as the National Rail site says this is the quickest route to Headstone Lane from Leighton Buzzard. My season ticket says under 'Route', "Any permitted". I wasn't that busy at work today so I did some googling to try to find out who is right here, the inspector or the season ticket. It turns out I may be at fault because I'm doubling back by getting off at Harrow and coming back one stop on the London Overground. But if that is true, and my mistake, then why does my season ticket say, "Any permitted" under 'Route'?

Either the ticket inspector has got it wrong as my season ticket says any permitted route or the inspector is right and London Midland should surely print "Via Watford Junction" on the ticket?

Can anyone help me understand the ins and outs of this issue and to determine the validity of my LBZ-HRW-HDL journey? Tomorrow I will travel from LBZ to WFJ and HDL from there.

I am willing to understand that I'm at fault for using an incorrect route but the inspector's aggressive behaviour towards me and the "Any permitted" route make me want to investigate this fully so I know where I stand. I have quickly looked at the routing map but I do not fully understand how to use it to work out what routes are considered 'permitted', something I wasn't even aware of before today. I feel that had I been fined I would have felt that it was unfair considering there's nothing on my season ticket to inform me that I must travel via Watford Junction.

I've tried to write as much information as possible but I may have left something out that is needed to clarify matters. If that is the case, please let me know what you need to know and I'll do my best to answer. Thanks in advance.

 

[mikeg]

The origin and destination of your ticket share a routeing point in common, so only routes within three miles of the shortest, most direct route through which regular trains run are permitted. Doubling back should be no problem in itself, as you are on a season ticket that covers the full range of where you travel. But I will have to check the mileages to check you are taking a permitted route.

 

[dvboy]

you are doubling back which isnt allowed without an easement as you are travelling beyond the distance of your season ticket

an lbz-hrw season ticket would allow you to do that.

 

[mikeg]

Didn't realise the op was travelling beyond the distance of his ticket, must have read it wrong.

Edit: Yes, he/she is doubling back and travelling beyond the validity of the ticket. This is not usually allowed.

 

[Bumblebee]

you are doubling back which isnt allowed without an easement as you are travelling beyond the distance of your season ticket

an lbz-hrw season ticket would allow you to do that.

Hi dvboy. Is this because the system is assuming an LBZ-WFJ-HDL journey and so considers HRW further on from HDL on this route? I accept that but I can't understand why my season ticket doesn't say that I MUST travel via WFJ.

 

[dvboy]

its as simple as your season ticket covers lbz-hrw and hdl is one stop beyond that, even if you are going back

whether you change or the train stops at wfj is irrelevant

 

[mikeg]

Many tickets are routed 'any permitted' despite there being only one permitted route. There are a number of these examples in my area too.

 

[Bumblebee]

whether you change or the train stops at wfj is irrelevant

I'm not being difficult but I don't understand this bit. There is no way for me to get to Headstone Lane without getting off at either WFJ or HRW. If the permitted route is via WFJ I don't understand your point about the train stopping at WFJ being irrelevant.

Please understand I'm not being argumentative, I'm just a newcomer to this and I'm trying to learn what I need to from now on and why I should have been doing this.

 

[causton]

In any case - going your current route you would still be going via Watford Junction so that restriction would do nothing!

Any Permitted just means that no special restrictions apply but you still need to follow the Routing Guide instructions involving not doubling back. How much extra is a season to HRW?

*but, somewhere on the NRE site, it says 'You may use any reasonable route to complete your journey'. Wonder if anyone could get away with that

 

[Old Timer]

its as simple as your season ticket covers lbz-hrw and hdl is one stop beyond that, even if you are going back

whether you change or the train stops at wfj is irrelevant

Headstone Lane is north of Harrow so technically Harrow is beyond the rouiting of the ticket HOWEVER ordinary tickets are valid via Harrow (Source NRE).

BUT there used to be an easement in BR days as I recall that allowed Carpenters Park northbound season tickets to be used via Harrow. Worth checking if that still applies.

 

[dvboy]

I'm not being difficult but I don't understand this bit. There is no way for me to get to Headstone Lane without getting off at either WFJ or HRW. If the permitted route is via WFJ I don't understand your point about the train stopping at WFJ being irrelevant.

Please understand I'm not being argumentative, I'm just a newcomer to this and I'm trying to learn what I need to from now on and why I should have been doing this.

no its fine

but if the only way to get to hdl is to change at wfj or hrw then you must change at wfj because your ticket doesnt permit you to go to hrw and then go back one stop.

if you wamt to change at hrw you need a lbz-hrw season ticket. this allows you any journey between those two stations

 

[causton]

BUT there used to be an easement in BR days as I recall that allowed Carpenters Park northbound season tickets to be used via Harrow. Worth checking if that still applies.

Searched easements for that, nothing comes up even under 'Harrow' so no easements relating to HRW at all!

 

[dvboy]

Headstone Lane is north of Harrow so technically Harrow is beyond the rouiting of the ticket HOWEVER ordinary tickets are valid via Harrow (Source NRE).

BUT there used to be an easement in BR days as I recall that allowed Carpenters Park northbound season tickets to be used via Harrow. Worth checking if that still applies.

i looked through the easements and couldn't find anything suitable.

 

[Bumblebee]

In any case - going your current route you would still be going via Watford Junction so that restriction would do nothing!

Does VIA not mean get off at and use that station for another train? It means travelling through that station without necessarily getting off?

Any Permitted just means that no special restrictions apply but you still need to follow the Routing Guide instructions involving not doubling back. How much extra is a season to HRW?

£1 a week extra according to the National Rail site. I pay £68.30 a week for my LBZ-HDL season ticket, the National Rail site says it would be £69.30 to replace HDL with HRW.

*but, somewhere on the NRE site, it says 'You may use any reasonable route to complete your journey'. Wonder if anyone could get away with that

That is what I was trying to explain this morning but I wasn't allowed to explain my side of the story at all. I was spoken to like I was a regular, cold-blooded, calculating fare dodger who was doing this on purpose.

 

[richw]

national rail site gives the following as an accepted route( not sure how it will display as it was a copy paste from national rail!) see screen print also

10:24 Leighton Buzzard [LBZ] Harrow & Wealdstone [HRW]
10:59 6 0h 35m nullSeating Class Information nullCycle policy
Calling points Arrives Departs
Tring [TRI] 10:34 10:34
Berkhamsted [BKM] 10:39 10:39
Hemel Hempstead [HML] 10:43 10:43
Watford Junction [WFJ] 10:51 10:51

Southern service from Milton Keynes Central to South Croydon show calling points
Train 11:06 Harrow & Wealdstone [HRW] Headstone Lane [HDL]
11:09 2 0h 03m

 

[dvboy]

Does VIA not mean get off at and use that station for another train? It means travelling through that station without necessarily getting off?

VIA doesnt necessarilu mean getting off the train as long as the train goes through the station

Going via HRW doesnt count as "Any permitted" however.

 

[causton]

Does VIA not mean get off at and use that station for another train? It means travelling through that station without necessarily getting off?

No, it could be calling at the station on a train, it could be changing, it could be passing through at 100mph and not stopping even!*

*pretty sure as well, can't think of any examples of that though...

I'd say the £1 would be worth it.
It seems you might be able to with a single/return ticket but Season ticket planners only show journeys changing at Bushey/Watford Junction 'm afraid

 

[richw]

VIA doesnt necessarilu mean getting off the train as long as the train goes through the station

Going via HRW doesnt count as "Any permitted" however.

see my above screen print i believe it does. about 50% of journey planner times state changing at HRW

 

[Bumblebee]

no its fine

but if the only way to get to hdl is to change at wfj or hrw then you must change at wfj because your ticket doesnt permit you to go to hrw and then go back one stop.

if you wamt to change at hrw you need a lbz-hrw season ticket. this allows you any journey between those two stations

I must be misunderstanding something then if I could get an LBZ-HRW season ticket, get off AT HRW and then come one stop back on the London Overground. Are you saying that an LBZ-HRW season ticket would allow me to make any journey between LBZ and HRW as long as I didn't venture south of HRW on the train?

Searched easements for that, nothing comes up even under 'Harrow' so no easements relating to HRW at all!

Am I able to search the easements or are you employed in the industry and thus have access to these easements?

 

[dvboy]

I must be misunderstanding something then if I could get an LBZ-HRW season ticket, get off AT HRW and then come one stop back on the London Overground. Are you saying that an LBZ-HRW season ticket would allow me to make any journey between LBZ and HRW as long as I didn't venture south of HRW on the train?

that's right.

 

[Bumblebee]

VIA doesnt necessarilu mean getting off the train as long as the train goes through the station

Going via HRW doesnt count as "Any permitted" however.

OK I was not aware of that. I thought saying travel VIA meant getting off at that station and using another service to continue your journey.

No, it could be calling at the station on a train, it could be changing, it could be passing through at 100mph and not stopping even!*

*pretty sure as well, can't think of any examples of that though...

I'd say the £1 would be worth it.
It seems you might be able to with a single/return ticket but Season ticket planners only show journeys changing at Bushey/Watford Junction 'm afraid

Can you link me to the season ticket planner? I've always used the National Rail journey planner for 'normal' tickets and assumed I was OK to use that journey with a season ticket.

 

[causton]

I must be misunderstanding something then if I could get an LBZ-HRW season ticket, get off AT HRW and then come one stop back on the London Overground. Are you saying that an LBZ-HRW season ticket would allow me to make any journey between LBZ and HRW as long as I didn't venture south of HRW on the train?

Yes. you can make any journey you want. You could get off at Watford, go to work in Watford, then get back on a totally different train and go to Hemel Hempstead to see a friend, then get off and get a different train from there to Harrow and Wealdstone, then get a train from there back to LBZ! If you so desired...

Am I able to search the easements or are you employed in the industry and thus have access to these easements?

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/easements.pdf

Not sure why the document contains so many errors, and some completely useless easements though...!

 

[dvboy]

Am I able to search the easements or are you employed in the industry and thus have access to these easements?

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

 

[causton]

Can you link me to the season ticket planner? I've always used the National Rail journey planner for 'normal' tickets and assumed I was OK to use that journey with a season ticket.

http://tickets.southernrailway.com/sn/en/JourneyPlanning/SeasonMixingDeck
(Do not worry that it says Southern, it all uses the same system behind the brand name)

...wait a minute!

Type in LBZ to Headstone Lane, but click More options and put via Harrow.

Seems if you route via Harrow explicitly it will let you do it!

 

[richw]

an any permitted anytime ticket is valid via HRW. A season ticket has the same restrictions as a anytime ticket. Therefore it is an acceptable route. any journey planner will confirm this. If it is not permitted then these recommended journeys need removal from journey planner.
The OP is in the right, the RPI is wrong
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

http://tickets.southernrailway.com/sn/en/JourneyPlanning/SeasonMixingDeck
(Do not worry that it says Southern, it all uses the same system behind the brand name)

...wait a minute!

Type in LBZ to Headstone Lane, but click More options and put via Harrow.

Seems if you route via Harrow explicitly it will let you do it!

My screen print attached to post 15 i didnt even put via Harrow! and got the Harrow route

 

[dvboy]

Yes. you can make any journey you want. You could get off at Watford, go to work in Watford, then get back on a totally different train and go to Hemel Hempstead to see a friend, then get off and get a different train from there to Harrow and Wealdstone, then get a train from there back to LBZ! If you so desired...

You don't even have to leave the station, so you can ride up and down the line and get on and off all you like.

 

[Bumblebee]

Thanks to everyone who's replied. I really appreciate your quick and friendly advice and information. I realised I was probably in the wrong but I still feel the behaviour of the inspector was uncalled for.

Yes. you can make any journey you want. You could get off at Watford, go to work in Watford, then get back on a totally different train and go to Hemel Hempstead to see a friend, then get off and get a different train from there to Harrow and Wealdstone, then get a train from there back to LBZ! If you so desired...

So, if I wanted to, could I consider a season ticket a kind of unlimited travel pass between two points on as many services as I wanted during the valid time period of the ticket? Not that I would use it in the way you describe but I realise now that instead of actually asking for a season ticket to my actual destination I actually need a season ticket to cover the geographical spread of my commute.

Time for a stupid, and probably obvious answer question, but if I wanted to go to London Euston to do some shopping at the weekend, could I ask for a return ticket from HRW to Euston so that the season ticket covers me from LBZ to HRW and then the return ticket covers me from HRW to London Euston and back? It's not really a serious question, just something I'd pondered a few months back. I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is no but I thought I'd ask for the sake of asking.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/easements.pdf

Not sure why the document contains so many errors, and some completely useless easements though...!

Thanks. I'll read that tomorrow. I've got some ironing to do now.

 

[causton]

an any permitted anytime ticket is valid via HRW. A season ticket has the same restrictions as a anytime ticket. Therefore it is an acceptable route. any journey planner will confirm this. If it is not permitted then these recommended journeys need removal from journey planner.
The OP is in the right, the RPI is wrong

Yes, just noticed this... see the above post.

Therefore, you could buy the ticket from Southern's site (or another website which allows it) as it clearly says you can make that journey! Print out a screenshot of it giving the correct route with the trains you use, hey presto!

(You can continue buying your ticket as normal but I believe the NRCoC says something like 'details of the validity of your ticket will be available when you purchase your ticket', which the Southern journey planner would be an example of, and definitely allow you!)

 

[dvboy]

an any permitted anytime ticket is valid via HRW. A season ticket has the same restrictions as a anytime ticket. Therefore it is an acceptable route. any journey planner will confirm this. If it is not permitted then these recommended journeys need removal from journey planner.
The OP is in the right, the RPI is wrong
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


My screen print attached to post 15 i didnt even put via Harrow! and got the Harrow route

or its possible to buy a ticket for a journey not valid in yhe rputeing guide (not the first example i've come across)

 

[causton]

if I wanted to, could I consider a season ticket a kind of unlimited travel pass between two points on as many services as I wanted during the valid time period of the ticket?

Yes

Time for a stupid, and probably obvious answer question, but if I wanted to go to London Euston to do some shopping at the weekend, could I ask for a return ticket from HRW to Euston so that the season ticket covers me from LBZ to HRW and then the return ticket covers me from HRW to London Euston and back?

Probably best to ask from one from Headstone Lane to Euston :P - or just get an Oyster card and use that!