Who is 'An Authorised Person'?

[Tetchytyke]

Not a comparable situation or case.

It is enough of one to illustrate my point.

The prosecution case is that the defendant did not have a valid ticket, and therefore is in breach of the law.

The defendant's case is that they didn't have a valid ticket because an authorised person said they didn't need one.

The defendant doesn't have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the authorised person said they didn't need one. They just have to provide enough evidence that there is a reasonable doubt about whether it happened.

Obviously if the defendant cannot recall who the authorised person was, where they were working, or what they said then they are unlikely to be able to throw reasonable doubt on the prosecution case. If they have a signed and dated letter from an authorised person saying YOU DON'T NEED A VALID TICKET then they probably do.

It is not, however, for a defendant to prove their innocence. It is for a prosecutor to prove their guilt.

 

[Shempz]

Essentially with strict liability cases the burden of proof reverses. It's for you to show that you have a defence.

Yes, but your defence is just to prove "reasonable doubt", not to prove you are innocent beyond reasonable doubt. That's a very distinct difference.

 

[455driver]

It looks to me that the best course of action is not to use discretion thus solving any issues later on!

 

[Steveoh]

It looks to me that the best course of action is not to use discretion thus solving any issues later on!

Or have a proper documented procedure which all TOCs must adhere to. permit to travel issued with a reason, date, signature.

 

[island]

At which point one day a staff member has run out of permission slips and the whole thing goes back to square one.

 

[najaB]

At which point one day a staff member has run out of permission slips and the whole thing goes back to square one.

That is a matter of logistics, not of law.

 

[Jonfun]

But having permission slips is no different to having a ticket endorsed. It won't stop the "where's your permission slip?" "The man on the platform didn't give me one, he just said it was okay to get on" which by the arguments in this thread means that's alright, so we've got a new system with absolutely no benefit above the current one.

Morning peak, "Is this the train to x?". Ask to see their tickets, one of the two guys is like "we're on these" and instantly pulls out an Anytime Single. "Yep, that's okay, and yours?" - other guy reluctantly pulls out an SVR with the faintest smudge of where a "Restrictions Advised" stamp was. Advise options of either waiting for the first off peak train or paying excess fare, and suitably annotate that he's (again) been advised of the restrictions on his ticket.

But if I'd answered their first question with "yes", what is to say they wouldn't have turned round on the train and said that the man on the platform told me it was okay? If I'd taken their word they were both on the same tickets, what's to say they wouldn't then say I told them it was okay to travel? A passenger claiming someone gave them permission doesn't mean they have been given.

 

[455driver]

A passenger claiming someone gave them permission doesn't mean they have been given.

Surely you cannot be inferring that a passenger would tell porky pies to staff?
Don't you know ALL passengers are honest and above board and its ALWAYS the nasty, jobsworth railway staffs fault!

 

[miami]

My train on Thursday had a label on The side saying "off peak tickets not allowed on this train".

The railway industry lies far more often to far more people than passengers do.

 

[furlong]

My train on Thursday had a label on The side saying "off peak tickets not allowed on this train".

Can you be more specific? Which train/where? If you don't have a photograph, please take one next time if you can.

If that information was incorrect, you should report this to the ORR for investigation.

 

[miami]

Can you be more specific? Which train/where? If you don't have a photograph, please take one next time if you can.

If that information was incorrect, you should report this to the ORR for investigation.

On the side of the 0925 Crewe train to Euston (ex Liverpool), due into Euston at 1105.

You see and hear the announcements on most virgin trains leaving Euston between about 1500 and 1900 too.

 

[island]

I think I can conceive of a few Virgin trains on which no off-peak tickets are valid, but that isn't one of them. An off-peak ticket from Shotton to London Terminals would be valid on the above service.

 

[furlong]

On the side of the 0925 Crewe train to Euston (ex Liverpool), due into Euston at 1105.

Well if you consider that a holder of, say, a Crewe to Stafford Off-peak Day Return (available from 9am) might be led into buying a more expensive ticket or not catching the train as a result, make a complaint to the ORR citing this document.

 

[Fare-Cop]

What I find most fascinating in 7 pages of this thread is that this is a problem that I have always believed to be relatively easy to overcome;

In training RPIs, customer service inspectors and some staff who are deployed on barriers over the past 20-odd years, I have always said to them 'If you are presented with a ticket and you are genuinely not certain that it is valid and there is no-one immediately available to ask, either ask the traveller to go to the ticket office or information point to confirm, or if that isn't practical, write clearly on the back of the ticket your name or location & staff number and the date and the words 'Check validity with on-train staff'. Mark the front of the ticket with the words 'See reverse'.

EG: "05/12/15 BHM (LM1014) - Check if valid when on-train 14.35"

There is then no doubt that a member of staff has authorised the traveller to board the train and the traveller knows that they need to confirm that ticket validity. On train staff can at worst, charge any appropriate excess and no one is reported unnecessarily.

The intending traveller who asks staff 'Can I get this train?' can also be pro-active by asking staff to mark a ticket accordingly, or get the name of the staff member that they asked in order to help themselves and I know a lot of readers will say 'It's too simplistic', but I'm convinced that life is actually a lot simpler than most of us make it in situations like this. We can always help ourselves to do better.

 

[andywandy]

I asked this question at llandudno junction a week ago as there were some delays (broken tracks) and I had a couple of hours to kill. The ATW customer service manager said as far as he was concerned, gateline staff shouldn't give permission to travel without asking the TM or a manager, but many do and as such discression should be advised. He also said some staff such as at chester were more trained than others, and therefore would be more likely to know if it was appropriate to give permission to travel.

 

[Jonfun]

I know a lot of readers will say 'It's too simplistic', but I'm convinced that life is actually a lot simpler than most of us make it in situations like this. We can always help ourselves to do better.

Thank god. Can I get an amen? :P

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Amen.