Who do you support for Labour party leader?

[Drogba11CFC]

Did David Owen call for the Falklanders to be sold down the river though? Did he support the IRA?

 

[backontrack]

However, persuading someone who wasn't intending to use their vote, to use that vote in a particular way (especially when the motive for such a vote is an attempt at sabotage!) is NOT in the spirit of democracy, I argue.

Agreed.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Democracy includes the right to free expression and the right to vote for whoever one sees fit. Therefore this isn't undemocratic.

But democracy does rather rely on people using their votes in a constructive way to elect people best equipped (in their view) to help the country. If people start using their votes to deliberately elect people they perceive as no good in order to make it easier for the 'other side' to win, then that's likely in the end to harm democracy by lowering the quality of politicians available.

I'm a pretty liberal/moderate Tory, but I've persuaded my mum who has a vote due to her union at work to vote for Corbyn, both as an act of sabotage and because even Owen Smith is too far left for me, and therefore send a message that labour needs to regain the proper centre ground i.e. New Labour. She, like me, doesn't like either of them (she calls Corbyn "the idiot") and wasn't planning on voting, but I managed to persuade her.

In a hypothetical general election between a "Blairite" and a very right wing Tory I would definately vote Labour.

That seems illogical to me. To the extent that Corbyn makes it easier for the Conservatives to win, he also makes it easier for the Conservatives to move to the right and therefore away from the position you hold - because their activists will perceive that they can make the Conservatives more ideological/right-wing while being able to win.

Also the idea that a vote for Corbyn will send anyone a message that Labour needs to be more centrist seems unlikely to work. If anything, the more votes Corbyn get, the more Labour members/MPs are likely to believe that being very left wing is popular.

 

[phoenixcronin]

That seems illogical to me. To the extent that Corbyn makes it easier for the Conservatives to win, he also makes it easier for the Conservatives to move to the right and therefore away from the position you hold - because their activists will perceive that they can make the Conservatives more ideological/right-wing while being able to win.

Also the idea that a vote for Corbyn will send anyone a message that Labour needs to be more centrist seems unlikely to work. If anything, the more votes Corbyn get, the more Labour members/MPs are likely to believe that being very left wing is popular.

My reasoning is that Corbyn wins again and hence leads Labour to an absolute electoral calamity in 2020/next general election. Then, Labour hopefully returns to the proper centre/centre left etc

 

[Butts]

Bring back David Miliband from America.

Seconded, it they had chosen him insead of his brother originally none of this would be happening.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

My reasoning is that Corbyn wins again and hence leads Labour to an absolute electoral calamity in 2020/next general election. Then, Labour hopefully returns to the proper centre/centre left etc

Unfortunately, I fear it's more likely that he'll lead Labour to a calamity, at which point most of his supporters will believe that it was all because of media bias (which, to be fair, will be part of the reason) but that Corbyn's massive support amongst members and supporters - as proven by how many votes he got in the leadership election - proves he's still on the right path and needs to carry on. Further, the electoral calamity will remove many MPs - most of whom are more moderate - thereby further weakening the moderate voices within Labour.

To my mind, ultimately, if you want moderate voices to ultimately prevail, then you need to vote for the most moderate voices currently available. Trying to - in effect - manipulate the future by voting for and thereby giving influence to people you don't want, in the hope that they'll fail and that'll somehow lead history onto the path you want - is a very risky game - with a high risk that the ultimate long term result will quite simply be more power/influence to the very people you've voted for...

 

[backontrack]

Unfortunately, I fear it's more likely that he'll lead Labour to a calamity, at which point most of his supporters will believe that it was all because of media bias (which, to be fair, will be part of the reason) but that Corbyn's massive support amongst members and supporters - as proven by how many votes he got in the leadership election - proves he's still on the right path and needs to carry on. Further, the electoral calamity will remove many MPs - most of whom are more moderate - thereby further weakening the moderate voices within Labour.

To my mind, ultimately, if you want moderate voices to ultimately prevail, then you need to vote for the most moderate voices currently available. Trying to - in effect - manipulate the future by voting for and thereby giving influence to people you don't want - is a very risky game - with a high risk that the ultimate long term result will quite simply be more power/influence to the very people you've voted for...

Indeed. Deselection is a high price to pay.

 

[DarloRich]

I have cast my vote in the leadership election via the on line portal. Very quick and very easy.

At least Owen Smith has one vote!

 

[Steveman]

I have cast my vote in the leadership election via the on line portal. Very quick and very easy.

At least Owen Smith has one vote!

What a choice you labour supporters have - Corbyn or Smith can't remember a time when the labour party was so utterly rubbish, it has nobody whatsoever who even remotely looks like a leader.
Today Corbyn has been caught lying yet again as he claimed to have been sent a message of support from Bernie Sanders who today has denied sending any message whatsoever.

Soon people will be saying "I used to vote labour - remember them".

 

[Butts]

What a choice you labour supporters have - Corbyn or Smith can't remember a time when the labour party was so utterly rubbish, it has nobody whatsoever who even remotely looks like a leader.
Today Corbyn has been caught lying yet again as he claimed to have been sent a message of support from Bernie Sanders who today has denied sending any message whatsoever.

Soon people will be saying "I used to vote labour - remember them".

They already are - in Scotland

 

[AlterEgo]

They already are - in Scotland

Touché.

Labour are a dying force south of the border too. Eject eject eject!

Time for a new centre-left party of social democracy.

 

[EM2]

none of that will ever happen because Corbyn simply isn't electable.

Even though he's been elected as the MP in his constituency in every General Election since he first stood in 1983.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Touché.

Labour are a dying force south of the border too. Eject eject eject!

Time for a new centre-left party of social democracy.

While I don't doubt for a moment that Corbyn is seriously damaging Labour's changes of winning a general election, it's perhaps worth remembering that Labour's membership is now around 500K - far larger than the Conservatives, and indeed larger than any political party in the UK has been for a very long time. Labour may be set to lose the next election and the one after, but they are very, very far from dying as a political movement.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Even though he's been elected as the MP in his constituency in every General Election since he first stood in 1983.

Well, many on this forum will believe that it was absolutely nothing to do with him....and the fact that he increased his majority at the last election was also not down to him either.

 

[backontrack]

Even though he's been elected as the MP in his constituency in every General Election since he first stood in 1983.

It's a safe Labour seat. A hamster could win Islington North if it had a red rosette on.

 

[EM2]

It's a safe Labour seat. A hamster could win Islington North if it had a red rosette on.

That may well be the case, but a man who has been elected eight times is obviously not unelectable.

 

[Harbornite]

Even though he's been elected as the MP in his constituency in every General Election since he first stood in 1983.

Not every constituency is Islington North.

That may well be the case, but a man who has been elected eight times is obviously not unelectable.

But it's one thing being elected in Islington North and another thing being elected as PM.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That may well be the case, but a man who has been elected eight times is obviously not unelectable.

I think it should be fairly obvious that the claim that he is unelectable is referring to winning a general election, not to being elected MP in his own constituency. It's not at all uncommon for politicians who are nationally very unpopular - and therefore arguably unelectable - to nevertheless be relatively popular amongst their own constituents. Look at how Ed Milliband significantly increased his vote share in Doncaster North last year, while simultaneously losing badly in the country.

 

[AlterEgo]

That may well be the case, but a man who has been elected eight times is obviously not unelectable.

There's a big difference between winning a safe Labour seat on local issues and winning a General Election. At the latter, Corbyn is wholly unelectable.

I admire Corbyn for many of his principles, but even as a committed republican I really would prefer him not to be PM.

 

[Senex]

I admire Corbyn for many of his principles, but even as a committed republican I really would prefer him not to be PM.

Being a convinced republican (which I am) doesn't mean that one would want the old-fashioned sort of East European socialist régime that Corbyn and Milne want to offer (complete, no doubt, with all its special privileges for the governing class).

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Being a convinced republican (which I am) doesn't mean that one would want the old-fashioned sort of East European socialist régime that Corbyn and Milne want to offer (complete, no doubt, with all its special privileges for the governing class).

Can you reference that for me, please? That offer by Corbyn and Milne should be interesting reading!

 

[D365]

Time for a new centre-left party of social democracy.

If only such a party would actually give one a viable "alternative vote"...

 

[Bevan Price]

I vote Labour, but am not a party member, and don't agree with all of their policies. In some respects, I am to the left, but I think that Labour is sometimes "too soft" on criminals & scroungers, etc.

However, I am also a realist, and it seems clear that a strongly left wing Labour party will never again get enough votes to win a general election. Like him - or hate him - it needs a Blair-like moderate left of centre leader to stand a chance of winning a general election.

So, it doesn't matter if either Mr Corbyn or Mr Smith wins - I regret that both have the proverbial "not a cat in hell's chance" of becoming PM. Who could win ? No idea, but to stand a chance, we need a "Neil Kinnock successor" to break the power of Militant Mark 2 & their ilk. I fear that we will get tory-dominated governments for many years to come, unless they make major mistakes such as wreckng NHS.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I vote Labour, but am not a party member, and don't agree with all of their policies. In some respects, I am to the left, but I think that Labour is sometimes "too soft" on criminals & scroungers, etc.

However, I am also a realist, and it seems clear that a strongly left wing Labour party will never again get enough votes to win a general election. Like him - or hate him - it needs a Blair-like moderate left of centre leader to stand a chance of winning a general election.

So, it doesn't matter if either Mr Corbyn or Mr Smith wins - I regret that both have the proverbial "not a cat in hell's chance" of becoming PM. Who could win ? No idea, but to stand a chance, we need a "Neil Kinnock successor" to break the power of Militant Mark 2 & their ilk. I fear that we will get tory-dominated governments for many years to come, unless they make major mistakes such as wreckng NHS.

I'm still undecided, but I agree that Smith is too similar to Corbyn for there to be much point in this contest. I'm probably leaning towards voting Smith because I think he may be able to unite the party (and he isn't tainted by Momentum who are undemocratic and self-serving). Corbyn has only paid lip-service to the centrists that dominate the PLP, and seems to somehow make sure that every rally is essentially a back-slapping echo-chamber where any dissenting voices are out-shouted. My natural tendency towards the underdog also pushes me towards Smith (who I believe would be more pragmatic than Corbyn, and may yet have more than just Welsh-ness in common with Neil Kinnock, who let's remember very nearly won the General Election in 1992).

Though I wouldn't describe Blair as "left-of-centre"!

 

[backontrack]

I'm still undecided, but I agree that Smith is too similar to Corbyn for there to be much point in this contest. I'm probably leaning towards voting Smith because I think he may be able to unite the party (and he isn't tainted by Momentum who are undemocratic and self-serving). Corbyn has only paid lip-service to the centrists that dominate the PLP, and seems to somehow make sure that every rally is essentially a back-slapping echo-chamber where any dissenting voices are out-shouted. My natural tendency towards the underdog also pushes me towards Smith (who I believe would be more pragmatic than Corbyn, and may yet have more than just Welsh-ness in common with Neil Kinnock, who let's remember very nearly won the General Election in 1992).

Though I wouldn't describe Blair as "left-of-centre"!

I agree with this post quite a bit - including that last sentiment. Kenneth Clarke is further to the left than him!

 

[Busaholic]

I agree with this post quite a bit - including that last sentiment. Kenneth Clarke is further to the left than him!

Even Malcolm Rifkind or John Gummer, two Tories who voted against the invasion of Iraq, could be said to be to the left of Blair. Labour needs to jettison both Corbyn and the remaining camp-followers of Blair in order to appeal to sections of the populace who failed to vote for the party in the General Election last year. It's not an impossible ask, just a highly improbable one, unfortunately.

 

[DarloRich]

I agree with this post quite a bit - including that last sentiment. Kenneth Clarke is further to the left than him!

Even Malcolm Rifkind or John Gummer, two Tories who voted against the invasion of Iraq, could be said to be to the left of Blair. Labour needs to jettison both Corbyn and the remaining camp-followers of Blair in order to appeal to sections of the populace who failed to vote for the party in the General Election last year. It's not an impossible ask, just a highly improbable one, unfortunately.

don't be silly - Blair is/was a centre left/social democratic politician. Look at the achievements of his government. I wouldn't call things like a nation minimum wage or sure start or introduction of paid paternity leave or the Human Rights Act as Tory policies - but then that doesn't fit with the rhetoric does it?

We need more centre ground policies not less!

 

[Harbornite]

don't be silly - Blair is/was a centre left/social democratic politician. Look at the achievements of his government. I wouldn't call things like a nation minimum wage or sure start or introduction of paid paternity leave or the Human Rights Act as Tory policies - but then that doesn't fit with the rhetoric does it?

We need more centre ground policies not less!

Not to mention the 24 hour licensing act. I was opposed to the idea of this.. until I discovered alcohol.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think it should be fairly obvious that the claim that he is unelectable is referring to winning a general election, not to being elected MP in his own constituency. It's not at all uncommon for politicians who are nationally very unpopular - and therefore arguably unelectable - to nevertheless be relatively popular amongst their own constituents. Look at how Ed Milliband significantly increased his vote share in Doncaster North last year, while simultaneously losing badly in the country.

How well was Ed Balls liked in the constituency of Morley and Outwood and was he expected to retain that seat at the last General Election instead of losing it.

 

[Esker-pades]

Jeremy Corbyn is a great MP. He's been in the Commons for quite a while now.
But, he is an idealist. He doesn't quite think in the real world. His principles are brilliant, but don't work in the vast and unending pile of something-or-other that this planet is at the moment.

Idealists sweep up people who think that's what life will become the moment they're elected. But, that's not what's going to happen.

(For any interested, I am a Liberal.)