Who decides on a timetable

[TheEdge]

How does timetabling work?

Do the TOCs produce the timetable they want to run and present it to NR who either allow of disallow the paths as needed or do NR allocate paths/space and the TOCs then fill their allocated paths/space with their timetable?

Or another way?

 

[PHILIPE]

How does timetabling work?

Do the TOCs produce the timetable they want to run and present it to NR who either allow of disallow the paths as needed or do NR allocate paths/space and the TOCs then fill their allocated paths/space with their timetable

The basic Timetable is now specified by the DFT Franchise. The TOCs will time according to this and sibmit to Network Rail for specification. TOCs can add additional services but any applications to do this have to be submitted for ORR agreement

 

[The Planner]

Do the TOCs produce the timetable they want to run and present it to NR who either allow of disallow the paths as needed or do NR allocate paths/space and the TOCs then fill their allocated paths/space with their timetable?

Bit of both, the TOCs will bid for paths and we validate the schedules, if it all works then great, but if it doesn't then we go back and reject the paths. We then work with them to either make them fit via flexing them slightly or talking with other operators to see if they can move slightly (which if we do the job properly happens before we reject). If they can't be made to work then contractual rights come into play and possibly timetable dispute panels.

 

[telstarbox]

On lines like the WCML where there are a variety of fast and slow trains, are the clockface fasts (VT) agreed first then everything else fitted in between?

How far down the pecking order is something like Penzance-Cardiff or Liverpool-Norwich?

 

[merlodlliw]

I can only talk about ATW, who now have to consult on any major timetable changes with stakeholders and passenger groups(RUGS).

WG have insisted they now consult user groups after removing services without telling anyone a few years ago, RUGS this summer found errors in the proposed Dec 13 pocket timetables and ATW said thank you, mostly around "Gerald" and bank holidays omissions.

Some tocs make proposed timetables open to the general public for comment ,many don't including ATW.

 

[The Planner]

On lines like the WCML where there are a variety of fast and slow trains, are the clockface fasts (VT) agreed first then everything else fitted in between?

How far down the pecking order is something like Penzance-Cardiff or Liverpool-Norwich?

They will have a notional path which wont move unless it scuppers something else. No path is set in stone completely unless moving it means quite a substantial re-write of stuff around it. Considering probably 80-90% of the timetable is just rolled over each time pecking order doesnt really come into it, you don't validate a line and then try and move say the Liverpool Norwich service around it afterwards.

 

[306024]

How does timetabling work?

Simple question, complicated answer....

Timetables should comply with the following basic principles, in no particular order and more could be added:

Be safe to operate
Provide sufficient capacity
Maximise revenue
Maximise performance
Minimise cost
Be compliant with your Service Level Agreement

In passenger land a TOC designing a timetable will need to work with DfT and ORR to get the necessary permissions and access rights, but I'll skip all this contractual stuff, important though it is in today's contractual railway.

For many TOCs the best place to start is with a standard off peak hour that can repeat throughout the day. This will identify the best way to use track capacity, and ideally will include sufficient access for freight if you want to avoid problems later in the process. Best to talk to freight colleagues before you start and get the pattern agreed with NR before you start replicating it.

At the same time consider the diagramming implications of the timetable you are designing. A timetable that is potentially high revenue / high cost is more risky than low revenue / low cost, because cost is almost a given, but revenue is not guaranteed. Every TOC would like a high revenue / low cost timetable.

Then add in the peak workings and the start and finish of the service and job done. Of course nowhere as simple as that, and timetabling tends to be done differently depending on the type of TOC you are, and where you are in the country. Long distance operators including freight will need NR planners to work out detailed paths across the network, where as TOCs with intensive suburban operations (e.g. Former NSE area) tend to take the lead as their resource plan is more critical, so they submit more detailed plans to NR for validation.

Also keep user groups and other stakeholders informed along the way. Timetable changes are always contentious to someone, even if the vast majority benefit.

That lot has probably put anyone off becoming a planner, but get it right and it can be quite satisfying.

 

[D1009]

That lot has probably put anyone off becoming a planner, but get it right and it can be quite satisfying.

Kept me in a job for 40+ years!

 

[The Planner]

Want to come back as a consultant?

 

[jopsuk]

Presumably of all the TOCs C2C is the simplest to timetable? And of all the lines, Island Line must be a dawdle!

 

[swt_passenger]

It is often supposed, but is it true that if they were ever to decide to rewrite the whole timetable from scratch, the service that would go on the graph first of all would be the XC NE-SW axis, followed by their other three main routes?

 

[Eagle]

Presumably of all the TOCs C2C is the simplest to timetable?

Nah, it's got to be Merseyrail. The c2c lines have freight to contend with that Merseyrail doesn't.

 

[The Planner]

It is often supposed, but is it true that if they were ever to decide to rewrite the whole timetable from scratch, the service that would go on the graph first of all would be the XC NE-SW axis, followed by their other three main routes?

Moot point as I don't think it will ever happen, but I seriously doubt that would be the case. You would still radiate from London first then deal with the next big hubs like New St etc coming very close behind.

 

[306024]

Presumably of all the TOCs C2C is the simplest to timetable? And of all the lines, Island Line must be a dawdle!

The London, Tilbury and Southend Railway (just what does c2c mean?) is quite straight forward apart from the single line from Upminster to West Thurrock Jn. Didn't used to matter too much until someone built Lakeside shopping centre on the single line. Now it sees through trains rather than an Upminster to Grays shuttle which adds a bit of complexity to it.

Closing Tilbury Riverside simplified things a bit. As for freight, apart from fitting in the gaps in the LTS passenger service, it also has to fit at Gospel Oak, or more difficultly Forest Gate Jn.

Merseyrail electrics would appear to be the simplest, but even that has to be deigned with appropriate turnround time at the various terminal stations. Island Line doesn't count

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When the West Coast 2004 timetable was "done" - a process which took nearly 2 years ! (and not without issues) - the first bit done was to agree New St to Rugby , then fit the desired paths with the WCML off the Trent Valley issues at Rugby (treating Euston as an unmanned halt which just received trains) - then working back towards Crewe and Manchester (the latter a nightmare) - with a seperate area looking at the slow lines into Euston from Northampton with all the freight issues and commuter flows there.

Timetabling is an art as well as a science.

 

[nw1]

Simple question, complicated answer....

Timetables should comply with the following basic principles, in no particular order and more could be added:

Be safe to operate
Provide sufficient capacity
Maximise revenue
Maximise performance
Minimise cost
Be compliant with your Service Level Agreement

.

I suspect that privatisation has changed the priorities of these though. Under BR timetabling and stock allocation tended to agree (IMX) with my own feelings on what makes sense: most lines having peak extras, relatively short trains off peak and relatively long trains during the peak.

Nowadays on many lines there are no peak extras at all or very few (e.g. Southampton to Portsmouth stoppers, even the Portsmouth Direct only has one peak extra and that's after 1815! Compare that to the 80s when you had two trains an hour off peak but six in the peak) and you're quite likely to get peak-style frequencies and long, relatively empty trains in the middle of the day. There's more of a tendency these days to spread demand by compelling people to travel at quiet times, e.g. the introduction of "shoulder peak" premiums such as arriving in London 1000-1200 or leaving 1500-1700.