WHL Scenic 158s

[sprinterguy]

Terrible ride, and rattly panels - nowhere near the build quality of the 158 - but in principle not bad.

I've never noticed such issues with the 175s. They seem like smooth riding, solidly built units to me, although they of course had well documented reliability issues when new.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Its a tourist attraction that isnt being used to its true potential. Ill quite happily make the choice

Most Scots would make the choice too. They'd choose free prescriptions and free higher education. I hate to say it. You're in a minority over this one.

 

[Iskra]

The line deserves better than what is being planned. Its a big tourist draw not only a rural service. Europe as with everything has us beat in this regard. ScotRail/SCottish government should be looking at what they have in Switzerland. If we're upgrading the sleepers then lets the scenic lines right for a change. Mk5 WHL coaches and Class 68s.

But how will you pay for them for the other 42 weeks of the year outside the holiday seasons?

Is putting LHCS on the WHL a Scottish Government priority when cheaper, adequate units are available?

Most others would be happy with a highly refurbished 158!

 

[MrJay]

They have 750hp engines, so would have no problems with gradients. They would, however, be hopelessly uneconomic on fuel usage on a rural route and would demand a far higher track access charge due to their heavier axle loadings.

With five carriage trains where would be no possibility of pairs of units running as far as Crianlarich to serve both Oban and Fort William, either: As mentioned above, an important facet of West Highland line operation for the past twenty five years.

Similar limitations (fuel usage, axle weight, track access costs, joining/splitting) would also face five or six carriage loco hauled formations, with the added need to keep an additional loco at Crianlarich to take one portion forward.

I wouldn't say no to a buffet on a three carriage unit, as per the former Hull Trains 170s, though.

True but they would make much more appropriate "scenic" DMUs that 158s given their layout however they rattle like hell!

68s could be used with DVTs. You would loose the split ability at Cairnlarich which many a poor tourist has fallen a foul of.

 

[6Gman]

So its not worth subsiding then as we do with many methods of transport in this country? then lets not forget Cal Macs operating costs which i'm sure far exceed the lines budget? A 158 on the E&G I can handle, on a WHL journey no thanks!

Missing the point on the whole point of a tourist line here I think.

So what is "the whole point of a tourist line" - that the normal laws of economics don't apply?

Does CalMac offer First Class? Does CalMac make special provision for sightseeing?

 

[MrJay]

But how will you pay for them for the other 42 weeks of the year outside the holiday seasons?

Is putting LHCS on the WHL a Scottish Government priority when cheaper, adequate units are available?

Most others would be happy with a highly refurbished 158!

If we dont try we'll never know will we.

 

[MCR247]

I'm sorry, but is the OP serious? Despite never having been on a SR refurb 158, they are apparently totally inappropriate for the route, an insult even. New LHCS is called for apparently. Why not new DMUs? Surely there can't be some kind of agenda for LHCS here...

 

[MrJay]

So what is "the whole point of a tourist line" - that the normal laws of economics don't apply?

Does CalMac offer First Class? Does CalMac make special provision for sightseeing?

First class/ standard class doesnt exits on ships without cabins. You are joking right? Most of their marketing material is based around attracting tourists lets not forget all new ships built within the last 10 years have been done so to provide panaoramic views at sea in the accommodation and more outside sheltered deck.

 

[SeanG]

If LCHS and good views are what you want, there are two trains per day up/down the WHL.

Otherwise I agree with the majority of points above

 

[MrJay]

I'm sorry, but is the OP serious? Despite never having been on a SR refurb 158, they are apparently totally inappropriate for the route, an insult even. New LHCS is called for apparently. Why not new DMUs? Surely there can't be some kind of agenda for LHCS here...

Ive made mention to appropriate DMU builds a few times.

 

[D1009]

So its not worth subsiding then as we do with many methods of transport in this country? then lets not forget Cal Macs operating costs which i'm sure far exceed the lines budget? A 158 on the E&G I can handle, on a WHL journey no thanks!

Missing the point on the whole point of a tourist line here I think.

OK anyone whose first post on this forum consists of an ill informed rant is unlikely to get a positive reaction. I will acknowledge that the tourist business during the summer has caused overcrowding on the route, but during the winter the market simply isn't there, and the franchised operator cannot have resources sitting in sidings for months like BR did up until the 1980s. I would suggest that WCRC's Jacobite operation is better placed to deal with that business, and with additional stock could be extended regularly to Glasgow or Edinburgh, not necessarily with steam. Obviously provided they get over their current difficulties.

 

[Marklund]

First class/ standard class doesnt exits on ships without cabins.

:roll:
You get lounges with free food and drink on some UK ferries, no cabin required.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Whats wrong with the Class 68 idea?

They're not cleared for the WHL.

If/when they are, they won't be permitted to reach Oban, at all, and for the rest of the route, they'll be subject to the same restrictions as a Class 66/67, so lots of 10/20/30/40mph speed restrictions at various overbridges. Mark 3 DVTs similarly aren't cleared, but shouldn't present any serious issues.

The Scottish permanent way engineers will just love service trains using Class 68s though. They'll just mash the track with their silly axle loads.

 

[MrJay]

OK anyone whose first post on this forum consists of an ill informed rant is unlikely to get a positive reaction. I will acknowledge that the tourist business during the summer has caused overcrowding on the route, but during the winter the market simply isn't there, and the franchised operator cannot have resources sitting in sidings for months like BR did up until the 1980s. I would suggest that WCRC's Jacobite operation is better placed to deal with that business, and with additional stock could be extended regularly to Glasgow or Edinburgh, not necessarily with steam. Obviously provided they get over their current difficulties.

Im sorry but even though I haven't traveled on a refurb 158 I still feel this is entirely the wrong way to go. I dont belive for one minute that this is making the most out of the line. When the Dutch got the franchise I had high hopes especially when they announced scenic trains and possible steam excursions extended all the way to the central belt. Never did I think for one minute that would mean refurb 158s, many of us WHL users thought of custom real scenic DMUs.

 

[Emblematic]

Ive made mention to appropriate DMU builds a few times.

You've also mentioned that you've not been on the actual trains you are complaining about. So how can you judge how appropriate they are?

 

[MrJay]

They're not cleared for the WHL.

If/when they are, they won't be permitted to reach Oban, at all, and for the rest of the route, they'll be subject to the same restrictions as a Class 66/67, so lots of 10/20/30/40mph speed restrictions at various overbridges. Mark 3 DVTs similarly aren't cleared, but shouldn't present any serious issues.


The Scottish permanent way engineers will just love service trains using Class 68s though. They'll just mash the track with their silly axle loads.

Rebuilt 73s then?

 

[Emblematic]

Rebuilt 73s then?

Still RA6 on a RA5 line, so subject to speed restrictions etc.

 

[MrJay]

You've also mentioned that you've not been on the actual trains you are complaining about. So how can you judge how appropriate they are?

Been on many a 158 thanks many many many times. The introduction of new seating isnt going to sell me on The basis of a scenic train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Been on many a 158 thanks many many many times. The introduction seating isnt going to sell me on The basis of a scenic train.

A 158 is an aluminium tube with seats and windows.

The vast majority of the environment provided by such a thing is how it's fitted out inside.

It's like saying "I don't like Barratt's 1970s 3-bedroom terraced houses" (seeing as I live in one) without considering what the owner has done to the interior.

Or, indeed, "I don't like Airbus A318s", without considering what the BA Business Class ones are like.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Rebuilt 73s then?

They're only going to be pushing and pulling a coach with the same windows and seats as a Class 158.

You would be better asking CAF to build some custom diesel multiple units with panoramic windows, small buffet and bit more luggage space etc. They need to be as cheap as a Class 158 to run when the route is quiet, equally reliable etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You would be better asking CAF to build some custom diesel multiple units with panoramic windows, small buffet and bit more luggage space etc. They need to be as cheap as a Class 158 to run when the route is quiet, equally reliable etc.

I suppose Class 170s have most of those features, including some with a microbuffet.

 

[MrJay]

Still RA6 on a RA5 line, so subject to speed restrictions etc.

HST scenic version? Surely more appropriate and soon to be in surplus!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suppose Class 170s have most of those features, including some with a microbuffet.

A scenic 170 wih microbuffet would be more fitting however luggage space is still an issue unless you turned one of the FC areas into additional space.

 

[NotATrainspott]

MrJay, you might find it interesting to look at NR's Scotland Route Study, which sets out in reasonable detail the expected service provision across Scotland in 2043. The plan for the WHL is to run an hourly service from Glasgow to Crianlarich which would then alternate between Oban and Fort William/Mallaig. That would represent quite a considerable increase in frequency over today, and as frequencies increase the service will become even more popular for both locals and tourists. An hourly service to Crianlarich would help boost passenger numbers massively, as at that point it becomes not infeasible to use the line for commuting to Glasgow from the extremely pretty countryside, and it would be possible to use the train for much shorter day trips.

The only way to make these frequencies possible is to minimise the running cost of the line, and so the only option is multiple units. It would be not dissimilar to what Virgin did on the cross-country route in Operation Princess, where long loco hauled sets were replaced with faster Voyagers running twice as frequently. Multiple units are also key to having faster journeys as they have a much lower axle loading than a loco-hauled train could manage.

Increasing passenger numbers may also make it feasible to justify electrification of the line once there are no other routes left to do in the country. Electrification would make it cheap and easy to have lightweight multiple units running even faster than a DMU with the internal ambience of the best possible loco hauled carriage.

EDIT: Also, I remember a mention somewhere on this forum about the idea of sending some of the InterCity HSTs up during the summer weekends if they're not needed for other duties. If this is actually a thing that might happen, then it would allow the WHL to have the best possible scenic trains during the high season while still being able to return to the Sprinters during the low season.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have wondered if electrified light rail might be the future of things like the Conwy Valley and Windermere branches - but longer regional lines probably will remain diesel for the foreseeable future.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I have wondered if electrified light rail might be the future of things like the Conwy Valley and Windermere branches - but longer regional lines probably will remain diesel for the foreseeable future.

I've mentioned before, but the WHL is the easiest line in the country to electrify.

 

[D1009]

MrJay, you might find it interesting to look at NR's Scotland Route Study, which sets out in reasonable detail the expected service provision across Scotland in 2043. The plan for the WHL is to run an hourly service from Glasgow to Crianlarich which would then alternate between Oban and Fort William/Mallaig. That would represent quite a considerable increase in frequency over today, and as frequencies increase the service will become even more popular for both locals and tourists. An hourly service to Crianlarich would help boost passenger numbers massively, as at that point it becomes not infeasible to use the line for commuting to Glasgow from the extremely pretty countryside, and it would be possible to use the train for much shorter day trips.

I'll be 95 by then, hope I'm there to see it!

 

[Emblematic]

HST scenic version? Surely more appropriate and soon to be in surplus!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


A scenic 170 wih microbuffet would be more fitting however luggage space is still an issue unless you turned one of the FC areas into additional space.

I'm not sure appropriate is a term that comes to mind if I contemplate a HST meandering along the WHL. Can't see it having any advantage over a 158 really. Micro buffet takes up more room than a trolley service, so I'd go with the extra seats, as these trains are very popular in summer (even if you don't like them!)

 

[MrJay]

Electrification is definitely the way foward especially for the Oban section which is the gateway to the islands. An HST would make a great scenic train. Mk3 ride, good views along the coach, drop down windows for the Glenfinnan viaduct, no underfloor engines, buffet cars a plenty, lots of luggage space in the power cars. At least ScR had the foresight to introduce them on the central belt Aberdeen/Inverness run.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

:roll:
You get lounges with free food and drink on some UK ferries, no cabin required.

Not the same thing. Travel on a ship is different in the sense your journey isnt constrained to a little seat or the vestibules. Your free to get up and move around as you please. Yes you can pay for access to "the club class" lounge if you fancy it. There isnt even that option on WHL services. You will never hear passengers at sea especially on UK ferries as first or second class.

 

[Emblematic]

Electrification is definitely the way foward especially for the Oban section which is the gateway to the islands. An HST would make a great scenic train. Mk3 ride, good views along the coach, drop down windows for the Glenfinnan viaduct, no underfloor engines, buffet cars a plenty, lots of luggage space in the power cars. At least ScR had the foresight to introduce them on the central belt Aberdeen/Inverness run.

The opening windows are unlikely to be retained on the Scotrail HSTs. Be interesting to see how the refurb goes, I can't imagine the window alignment will match the 158s though (apart from 1st.)

 

[MrJay]

High backed seats on the 158s not present on the Mk3