Whitland level crossing crash

[neonison]

Ex-Welsh Conservative chairman, Sir Eric Howells writing in Daily Mail 30-Dec-2011 anticipates the RAIB enquiry and seems to blame the Whitland crash on inadequate train brakes. He seems clear that the hay lorry and trailer entered a clear crossing and was brought to a stop by descending barriers. How he knows this he doesn't say.

Now I have no idea what car Sir Eric drives but let's say it weighs 2 tonnes and travels on 4 wheels. A 2-car 175 set weighs ~100 tonnes and runs on 16 wheels. Fifty times the mass on four times as many wheels, so the braking efficiency needs to be 12.5 times better on the train to achieve the 80m stopping distance at 80kph (50mph) of the motor vehicle. Put another way for brakes as good as those on Sir Eric's car a train should stop in 1000m from 80kph (50mph) which seems entirely possible!

I did say it was published in the Daily Mail, didn't I?

 

[Michael.Y]

And he's a Conservative, so he's going to make political capital out of it.

 

[merlodlliw]

deleted.

 

[NSEFAN]

I have over the years remarked on poor lights on the trains including the 125. When it took so long to stop after colliding with the trailer in the first accident we must question whether train brakes are adequate in instances like this or with livestock straying onto the track.

Having brighter lights isn't going to move an obstruction out of the way. In any case, more and more trains are receiving bright LED headlights.

If there was a problem with the train brakes then the offending unit wouldn't have been let onto the mainline in the first place. It wasn't the fault of the train that a lorry was in the way. Why do some politicians think they know better than railwaymen on technical matters? :roll:

 

[Hydro]

Ex-Welsh Conservative chairman, Sir Eric Howells writing in Daily Mail 30-Dec-2011 anticipates the RAIB enquiry and seems to blame the Whitland crash on inadequate train brakes. He seems clear that the hay lorry and trailer entered a clear crossing and was brought to a stop by descending barriers. How he knows this he doesn't say.

Now I have no idea what car Sir Eric drives but let's say it weighs 2 tonnes and travels on 4 wheels. A 2-car 175 set weighs ~100 tonnes and runs on 16 wheels. Fifty times the mass on four times as many wheels, so the braking efficiency needs to be 12.5 times better on the train to achieve the 80m stopping distance at 80kph (50mph) of the motor vehicle. Put another way for brakes as good as those on Sir Eric's car a train should stop in 1000m from 80kph (50mph) which seems entirely possible!

I did say it was published in the Daily Mail, didn't I?

Just shows you intelligence doesn't necessarily get you to the top.
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. Why do some politicians think they know better than railwaymen on technical matters? :roll:

I don't think this is case of politicians versus railwaymen - Sir Eric is plainly just ignorant of the reality of train braking standards and...well, physics.

Trains won't be able to stop like cars or trams. We could spend millions and millions updating all stock with those magnetic shoe brakes (and spending more millions replacing the rail that it will wear down quicker) for an increase in braking effort at very low speeds, we could spend millions putting full barriers on all vehicular crossings, but why? Why, when a solution that will cost next to nothing in comparison exists? Educating people that two flashing lights and descending barriers means STOP. Educating people that "Use phone before crossing" means just that. Educate, because plainly a lot of people seem to think that these rules of the road do not apply to them, and therefore need it drilling through their skulls.

 

[Oswyntail]

And he's a Conservative, so he's going to make political capital out of it.

Is that at all relevant - except inasmuch as any politician would? The letter makes a somewhat feeble and contentious point, and relies on hearsay, but makes no political statement.

 

[Old Timer]

Vocational training in chemical hazards, heavy and workshop machine safety and fire safety, as well as PPE and first aid. This, plus safety around freight vehicles such as trucks, forklifts and trains, has also been covered in a lengthy health and safety course I completed a while ago, which I now principally use as a qualification for traffic management at complex events, but can also use for risk assessment in the event of most transport-related incidents. It was a 24-week part-time course if I remember correctly. The precise name of it escapes me.

You asked

Exiting any railway carriage onto the track or lineside is a potentially highly dangerous scenario, and in general will result in a far greater degree of risk to a far higher number of people.

It would be helpful if you would let us know the name of this course, so that the content relative to Railways can be reported to RSSB and appropriate action taken at a high level.

Non-Railway trained staff should not be producing study material that is clearly wrong, nor should they be involving themselves in areas outside their expertise. The instructions given are at best badly worded and at worst extremely dangerous.

Somebody will have paid for the course either you or your employer, and you should certainly have some form of attendance or completion certificate, if not the name of the training facility/company, or eductaional centre will do.

Please PM if you are unwilling to make the details public ?

Ex-Welsh Conservative chairman, Sir Eric Howells

He was thrown out of the Conservative Party in 2007 and so is no longer a Conservative as far as I can establish.

The fact that he is the

Ex-Welsh Conservative chairman

is completely irrelevant to the subject.

With regards to the fact that the Daily Mail printed it, presumably you would prefer it had not been printed and thus brought to your attention when it would otherwise not have been ?

Again it is unclear what publishing in the Daily Mail has to do with things ? Are you another of those Daily Mail-Haters who simply cannot stop reading it ?

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Sure most, if not all, AHB crossings say that those in charge of a slow moving or abnormally-loaded wagon/trailer have to phone the signaller before using the crossing?

Large or slow can be ambiguous but the signage is clear
Large means Over 61' 6'' or over 9' 6'' wide or over 44 tonnes
Slow is 5mph or less.
What are the timings before the barriers move - 5 secs amber + 10 seconds reds?
At 10mph the lorry would move 4.88 yards a second if my calculations are correct.

Edit my timing for the average level crossing was out.
More like max 3 seconds for amber, + 5 seconds for reds before barriers come down.

 

[BestWestern]

Ex-Welsh Conservative chairman, Sir Eric Howells writing in Daily Mail 30-Dec-2011 anticipates the RAIB enquiry and seems to blame the Whitland crash on inadequate train brakes. He seems clear that the hay lorry and trailer entered a clear crossing and was brought to a stop by descending barriers. How he knows this he doesn't say.

I did say it was published in the Daily Mail, didn't I?

Note the line towards the centre of the piece in which he reveals that he 'farmed for many years alongside a busy railway line...' - Say no more :roll:

 

[Jonny]

The issue is that trains, as metal-on-metal, are always going to struggle against rubber tyre-to-tarmac in a direct comparison. It is the system as a whole that works; remember that the railways have a century over the road system and are statistically safer. Also, the near-impossibility of sudden acceleration and deceleration on a train makes for a much smoother ride, which is why I like train journeys.

However, there is the issue of "track brakes" - where a brakepad fitted to a train is forcibly applied directly to the track in extreme situations, currently in use on modern trams IIRC. It makes for a mighty uncomfortable stop though.

Edit: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_brake

 

[neonison]

Braking involves the dissipation of the kinetic energy, a two car 175 will have 50 times as much energy to shed compared with a 2 tonne car. The rate at which this energy can be shed is not only dependent upon adhesion but also the rate at which that kinetic energy can be converted to heat. My point was that rail does pretty well in terms of braking efficiency.

...and I don't think the Daily Mail provides a valid commentary on rail matters; or indeed in my experience of my own professional field on many technical matters. The editor decides which letters are printed, those making a point in tune with the newspaper's editorial line are of course much more likely to get published.

 

[merlodlliw]

Exiting any railway carriage onto the track or lineside is a potentially highly dangerous scenario, and in general will result in a far greater degree of risk to a far higher number of people.

It would be helpful if you would let us know the name of this course, so that the content relative to Railways can be reported to RSSB and appropriate action taken at a high level.

Non-Railway trained staff should not be producing study material that is clearly wrong, nor should they be involving themselves in areas outside their expertise. The instructions given are at best badly worded and at worst extremely dangerous.

Somebody will have paid for the course either you or your employer, and you should certainly have some form of attendance or completion certificate, if not the name of the training facility/company, or eductaional centre will do.

Please PM if you are unwilling to make the details public ?




He was thrown out of the Conservative Party in 2007 and so is no longer a Conservative as far as I can establish.

The fact that he is the is completely irrelevant to the subject.

With regards to the fact that the Daily Mail printed it, presumably you would prefer it had not been printed and thus brought to your attention when it would otherwise not have been ?

Again it is unclear what publishing in the Daily Mail has to do with things ? Are you another of those Daily Mail-Haters who simply cannot stop reading it ?

An excellent respoince, I fully agree with you, I wished to make a similar comment(123), but decided not to,political baiting has nothing to do with this sad event.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Note the line towards the centre of the piece in which he reveals that he 'farmed for many years alongside a busy railway line...' - Say no more :roll:

Why have you chopped off the last few words " I understand the consequences and risks" and replaced it with rolling eyes

Bob

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Why have you chopped off the last few words " I understand the consequences and risks" and replaced it with rolling eyes

Bob

Because farming alongside a busy railway line does not mean you understand all the nuances, consequences and procedures of an operational railway.

 

[Old Timer]

Irish Rail have produced an absolutely first rate handbook intended for unattended level crossing users. Link attached. http://www.irishrail.ie/about_us/pdf/Safety_Booklet.pdf

A copy of this should be produced here and sent recorded delivery to every Accommodation/Occupation Crossing registered owner/user and used to also Prosecute them in the event of the crossing being misused.

For the avoidance of doubt here, the "owner" /"user" remains responsible for the actions of the people using the crossing either on business for him or visiting him and he is responsible for both ensuring the usuer is aware of the correct use of the crossing as well as monitoring to ensure that the crossing is being used correctly by his visitors.

Because farming alongside a busy railway line does not mean you understand all the nuances, consequences and procedures of an operational railway.

Absolutely correct, it in no way conveys any sort of educational value whatsoever. Its like saying living near the glide path to an airport gioves one a full knowledge of aircraft safety. The guys is an absolute twot, and says what he does for the oxygen of publicity.

 

[NSEFAN]

Its like saying living near the glide path to an airport gioves one a full knowledge of aircraft safety.

Or like saying you can see Russia from house qualifies you to be the governor of Alaska.

 

[Old Timer]

Or like saying you can see Russia from house qualifies you to be the governor of Alaska.

I very much prefer the former Govenor to the present one though I have to say

 

[Oswyntail]

Because farming alongside a busy railway line does not mean you understand all the nuances, consequences and procedures of an operational railway.

No, and nor does he need or claim to. What I understand him to mean is that he understands the situation as it affects his role as a farmer, which will include the tasks involved in crossing. I do not know whether what he says is true. But there is too much of the kneejerk reaction that non-railway people cannot understand anything about railway matters and are "twots" on this forum. And, as for "seeking the oxygen of publicity", the same could be said about all posters here.

 

[Hydro]

I can't see how farming affects the knowledge of not parking trailers on railway lines, or telephoning before crossing with a slow vehicle.

 

[Old Timer]

No, and nor does he need or claim to. What I understand him to mean is that he understands the situation as it affects his role as a farmer, which will include the tasks involved in crossing. I do not know whether what he says is true. But there is too much of the kneejerk reaction that non-railway people cannot understand anything about railway matters and are "twots" on this forum. And, as for "seeking the oxygen of publicity", the same could be said about all posters here.

You will know then that he is not averse to making shall we say, "controversial" comments then. I will leave you to judge why.

 

[merlodlliw]

Because farming alongside a busy railway line does not mean you understand all the nuances, consequences and procedures of an operational railway.

I also appreciate that, but if you live and work next to a railway,you become aware of some of the dangers and thank you for responding in such a proactive way to my question.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't see how farming affects the knowledge of not parking trailers on railway lines, or telephoning before crossing with a slow vehicle.

In West Wales Farming is,so I understand the major employer, so should effect
the knowledge of railways & its crossings if you cross them

Another problem, gates in this area are being stolen for scrap, a neighbour has lost two in the last week or so, this allowed stock onto the main road, these thieves have no consideration for anyone, a disaster if its on a field next to a railway with a right of way. It is also a disaster for motorists in the dark.

Bob

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Another problem, gates in this area are being stolen for scrap, a neighbour has lost two in the last week or so, this allowed stock onto the main road, these thieves have no consideration for anyone, a disaster if its on a field next to a railway with a right of way. It is also a disaster for motorists in the dark.
Bob

I used to have some fields. I put heavy chain & padlock around the hinges and posts or welded a nut above the hinge, so the gate could not get removed. gates also locked the opening end.

I notice on google maps cars parked near the pull in for abnormal loads, which could make pulling in with a trailer without blocking the road impossible. Puts a certain extra pressure on the driver (Not a valid excuse for not phoning the signalman) We don't know if they were present at the time, or that particular lorry was an abnormal load.

 

[merlodlliw]

I used to have some fields. I put heavy chain & padlock around the hinges and posts or welded a nut above the hinge, so the gate could not get removed. gates also locked the opening end.

I notice on google maps cars parked near the pull in for abnormal loads, which could make pulling in with a trailer without blocking the road impossible. Puts a certain extra pressure on the driver (Not a valid excuse for not phoning the signalman) We don't know if they were present at the time, or that particular lorry was an abnormal load.

Problem is, thieves now have battery powered angle grinders to cut off welded
fasteners, these are now being used a lot around here, I reverse the pintals one up, one down, but if they want them etc.

Bob

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Problem is, thieves now have to cut off welded
fasteners, these are now being used a lot around here, I reverse the pintals one up, one down, but if they want them etc.

Bob

Good point. Difficult to combat that.

 

[Flamingo]

Have you ever tried these?

http://www.field-sports.co.uk/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=408

 

[neonison]

Preliminary RAIB:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/111219_llanboidy.cfm