Whistleboards

[The Snap]

Morning,

Can anyone point me in the direction of the NR Standard that details the requirements for the siting of whistle boards for pedestrian foot crossings?

I've had a look on the Standards database at work but it's a bit of minefield, so if anyone can narrow it down I'd appreciate it.

Also, one for the drivers amongst you. To my knowledge there is no rule that states a driver must not sound the horn if prompted by a whistleboard after a certain time, eg: at night due to noise restrictions for residents etc. Is that correct? A whistleboard is valid and 'in service' at all times like any other lineside sign?

Thanks.

 

[Alistair G.]

Im not a driver mate but I'm sure there is a ruling for drivers not to sound there horn between something like 23:00 and 07:00. I think they still sound their horn for maintenance workers during these hours though.

Probably well off target with this, but I'm sure I've read that somewhere

 

[ScotrailINV]

Im not a driver mate but I'm sure there is a ruling for drivers not to sound there horn between something like 23:00 and 07:00. I think they still sound their horn for maintenance workers during these hours though.

Probably well off target with this, but I'm sure I've read that somewhere

Yeah you're bang on Alistair - There's a document on the RSSB website but I couldn't find it just there. Between 11pm - 7am horns are only to be sounded for people on the track and if the train has a two stage horn fitted, the lower stage has to be used.

There's also something in the same document about new trains having to have lower powered horns fitted.


Just found the link here: http://www.rssb.co.uk/about-rssb/case-studies/reducing-the-negative-impact-of-train-horns

Lots of documents and standards on that page relating to whistle boards and horn usage.

 

[RPM]

The above is correct, except that the rule also states that the horn can be sounded at any time at whistle boards IF people can be seen on or approaching the foot crossing.

I think the siting requirements for the boards are very much location-specific and depend on individual risk assessments being made. I've seen whistle boards appear and disappear at various times on the routes I sign without changes to the infrastructure. It just depends on what the latest risk assessment came up with.

 

[The Snap]

Yeah you're bang on Alistair - There's a document on the RSSB website but I couldn't find it just there. Between 11pm - 7am horns are only to be sounded for people on the track and if the train has a two stage horn fitted, the lower stage has to be used.

There's also something in the same document about new trains having to have lower powered horns fitted.


Just found the link here: http://www.rssb.co.uk/about-rssb/case-studies/reducing-the-negative-impact-of-train-horns

Lots of documents and standards on that page relating to whistle boards and horn usage.

Thanks for that, will have a look.

The above is correct, except that the rule also states that the horn can be sounded at any time at whistle boards IF people can be seen on or approaching the foot crossing.

I think the siting requirements for the boards are very much location-specific and depend on individual risk assessments being made. I've seen whistle boards appear and disappear at various times on the routes I sign without changes to the infrastructure. It just depends on what the latest risk assessment came up with.

As it happens, since posting the original question, I have found the relevant Standard detailing the siting of whistleboards. I thought it would be set distance from the crossing, but it is actually determined on a case-by-case basis depending on linespeed and the driver's sighting distance/time of the crossing.
There's been a foot crossing by my house for many, many years and suddenly, about 2 years ago, NR installed a whistleboard. This hasn't bothered me in the slighting given I work in the industry and have lived next to the railway all my life, but some of the neighbours have complained. In fact, some complained to the Council and local rag and the board disappeared briefly. However, it was subsequently reinstated a few months later.

Going back to the Standard, page 12 item D of NR/L2/OPS/100 states that a pedestrian crossing must have an audible warning of some kind or be closed out of use. Given the crossing by my house is a public right of way, the latter wasn't going to happen, so naturally the board returned.

The Standards for those who are inserted are NR NR/L2/SIG/30017 Iss 2, NR NR/L2/OPS/100 Iss 2 and GKRT0192 Iss 2.

I’ve basically just answered half of my own poster there, but oh well, a discussion worth having I suppose!

 

[Pumbaa]

I think it's something like 6-7 seconds at line speed.

The full standard includes average walking time to clear the crossing if you've just started to walk across, and there's other considerations for sighting.

Buriton tunnel near Haslemere on the Portsmouth Direct is a good example; as you exit on the Up, there's a foot crossing within '000s of metres. The whistle board is as soon as you exit the tunnel and only just meets the standards.

 

[455driver]

Buriton tunnel near Haslemere on the Portsmouth Direct is a good example; as you exit on the Up, there's a foot crossing within '000s of metres. The whistle board is as soon as you exit the tunnel and only just meets the standards.

And doesn't it pee off that prat that won the lottery and built a house within earshot of the crossing when we sound the horn at 0701 or 2259!

 

[Llama]

Yeah you're bang on Alistair - There's a document on the RSSB website but I couldn't find it just there. Between 11pm - 7am horns are only to be sounded for people on the track and if the train has a two stage horn fitted, the lower stage has to be used.

Not quite. Both tones are used to warn people seen on or near the line irrespective of time of day. The low tone only is to be used at W boards between 0700-2300 (unless someone is seen at the crossing etc).

 

[Jamesb1974]

Not quite. Both tones are used to warn people seen on or near the line irrespective of time of day. The low tone only is to be used at W boards between 0700-2300 (unless someone is seen at the crossing etc).

You forgot the bit that says "You must sound the horn at any other time you consider necessary".

I consider it necessary to sound both tones at a certain foot crossing after 2300, because it leads to a well used pub. Staggering figures emerging from the gloom are not uncommon...

 

[Llama]

Yes, there are plenty of other reasons to sound the horn too, but specifically related to whistleboards the rules are clear.

 

[Alan White]

I'm a frequent rambler and occasional train user (the latter enables me to do the former). Many public footpaths cross railway lines at flat crossing points where the simple rule is "look out for trains".

Many of these crossings I've passed both by train and on foot and I know that they have W signs in advance of them but the driver almost never sounds the horn. Is this no longer a requirement?

 

[najaB]

Many of these crossings I've passed both by train and on foot and I know that they have W signs in advance of them but the driver almost never sounds the horn. Is this no longer a requirement?

Based on previous posts, that is correct.

 

[OpsWeb]

I'm a frequent rambler and occasional train user (the latter enables me to do the former). Many public footpaths cross railway lines at flat crossing points where the simple rule is "look out for trains".

Many of these crossings I've passed both by train and on foot and I know that they have W signs in advance of them but the driver almost never sounds the horn. Is this no longer a requirement?

The current Rulebook module TW1 states:

b) Whistle boards
You must sound the horn when passing a whistle board only
between 0700 and 2300, except in an emergency or when anyone
is on or near the line.

Hope this clarifies.

 

[Alan White]

The current Rulebook module TW1 states:

b) Whistle boards
You must sound the horn when passing a whistle board only
between 0700 and 2300, except in an emergency or when anyone
is on or near the line.

Hmmm, I can see that that can be interpreted in more than one way:
a) you must sound the horn when passing a whistle board, except between 23:00 and 07:00
b) you must not sound the horn when passing a whistle board between 23:00 and 07:00
As written, the emphasis seems to be more on when not to sound the horn rather than when to do so.

I also did what I should have done before posting and found this thread which also seems to say that a driver must sound the horn when passing a whistle board.

As a rambler who sometimes has to use such crossings, my concern is that users of crossings aren't being given audible warning of a train's approach, despite the presence of a whistle board. If I'm on a train and see a whistle board but the driver does not sound the horn, what should my responsible action be?

 

[Bald Rick]

Whistle boards are only required where sighting distance is insufficient for the crossing. The required sighting distance varies for each individual crossing, and are based on a number of factors. By no means every crossing has a whilste board.

There has been a lot of work done in the last 3-4 years on better understanding the sighting issues at every crossing, and as a result many crossings have had their whistle boards removed, or in some cases covered up. In some cases (I know of several) there have been noise abatement orders served on NR re the noise of train horns, so stuck between a rock and a hard place, the linespeed has been reduced so that trains don't have to blow up.

So it might be the case that crossings you see have had their whistle boards removed or otherways dis applied.

Finally, there is a known issue with Class395s, where the horn noise doesn't carry from full distance of some whistle boards. I've seen this (and not heard!) personally. So if you're in Kent, this may be the issue.

 

[Alan White]

So it might be the case that crossings you see have had their whistle boards removed or otherways dis applied.

Possibly, but if I can see the whistle board from the train, and I know it refers to a crossing which I may have used, how does the driver know whether the whistle board is valid or not?

Although I've seen lots of whistle boards on many lines but heard no whistle, I'm thinking principally of SWT Reading-Waterloo. For example, there's a crossing just south of Wokingham: there's a bridge over the Guildford tracks but the Ascot tracks are a flat crossing which I've used as a pedestrian. I know there's a whistle board on the down track in advance of the crossing because I've seen it from the train but I've never heard a whistle. On the other hand, the speed limit is very low there because of the junction and the proximity of the station, but that's just one example: I've seen others.

 

[ComUtoR]

Although I've seen lots of whistle boards on many lines but heard no whistle, I'm thinking principally of SWT Reading-Waterloo.

For example, there's a crossing just south of Wokingham: there's a bridge over the Guildford tracks but the Ascot tracks are a flat crossing which I've used as a pedestrian. I know there's a whistle board on the down track in advance of the crossing because I've seen it from the train but I've never heard a whistle.

Not blowing the horn at a whistle board is a serious breach and should be reported. However; I would categorically state that you need to be in a position where you can say without hesitation that it wasn't blown. Not hearing it is different to it not being blown.

If you have doubts then sit directly behind the driving cab on the route concerned and during the already specified hours.

I haven't known of many cases where whistle boards are being ignored but there was a recent issue of a notice to remind Drivers to blow AT the whistle board rather than on the approach. If I recall correctly it was sent out because of an incident at a crossing.

Please report any safety concerns. The OTMR ("black box") will provide evidence if it wasn't sounded.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I have used several public foot crossings. I have read on this forum that a noisy diesel engine gives plenty of warning of a trains approach. This is not true in my experience. Many years ago I was at Holmbush (St Austell) in Cornwall, not far from Arch Garage. The SW board was moved another 100 yards away to Holmbush Arch when the HST started. Train coming from the East, with a wind the first you hear is the twin tone. There is a busy road nearby, but this sound is distinctive. Next you hear is the rails vibrating, few moments later the train comes into sight, and you can hear the engine.

 

[Alan White]

Not hearing it is different to it not being blown. If you have doubts then sit directly behind the driving cab on the route concerned and during the already specified hours.
Please report any safety concerns.

Thanks. I'll certainly do that the next time I travel that route.

 

[OpsWeb]

The only thing I might add is that "local instructions" might be stipulated in the relevant Sectional Appendix with regard to certain whistle boards.

I remember from years ago, there was one up in Strathclyde that stated the whistle board (on a mainline but adjacent to a siding) should only be used when the sidings were in use. At all other times Driver's could disregard the board.