Which would be better? (Third class travel)

[tbtc]

We are going to need nineteen classes of ticket at this rate, depending on whether you get a table, whether it folds, whether your train squeals a bit, whether you get a window seat, quality of toilet... what next - discounted tickets for having to sit in the middle seat on a 3+2 carriage?

Yes, the OP doesn't like Pacers, I get it...

 

[Beveridges]

19 classes of ticket are not needed. Just three.

First and second class is self explanatory, third class on routes with especially poor quality rolling stock - especially long routes.

 

[northwichcat]

We are going to need nineteen classes of ticket at this rate, depending on whether you get a table, whether it folds, whether your train squeals a bit, whether you get a window seat, quality of toilet... what next - discounted tickets for having to sit in the middle seat on a 3+2 carriage?

Yes, the OP doesn't like Pacers, I get it...

Oh so it's fine for London Midland Euston services to have cheaper prices over the Virgin prices because they are slower, inferior trains. However, when I suggest that for Northern you jump to the conclusion it's only because I hate Pacers not because I'm suggesting something that's common practice across Europe and works well across different modes of transport including bus, ferry, coach, train and plane!

 

[Beveridges]

It would be simple to introduce.

Routes which are mostly Pacers = Third Class tickets.

Routes which are mainly "Anything else except Pacers" = Second class, with first class if provided (e.g. TPE).
There could be a rule here for routes which have a mixture of Pacers and normal trains... such as... more than 60% of the service to be Pacers to make it quality for a third class route?

The only issue is that if third class comes in, it could lead to a loss of revenue on the Pacer routes.
Or would a possible increase in passengers offset by the cheap fares make up for it?
Would the Pacers even be able to cope with the capacity if passenger numbers were to rise on third class routes ?
Or would passenger numbers rise at all, given that using a Pacer is too much of a "put off" for most people regardless of costs ?
Would standard class fares need to rise to make up for the revenue lost by introducing a third class ?

 

[starrymarkb]

OK in Germany you have Regio and RegioExpress services - these are cheap and tend to stop a lot, you may need to change a few times to complete a journey Often ticketing is integrated with the local Verkersverbund Zones and cheap Regional Tickets. Trains have a basic second class and a slightly plusher First (usually 1.5x the Second fare)

The Next Tier is Intercity. These cost more then RB/RE and usually do not accept the Verkersverbund tickets. The standard of accommodation is higher then RE/RB. Advance tickets are available as well as walk up. First and Standard IC fares are sold

Finally there is ICE. These cost more then IC services, usually run limited stop and often on HSLs. First and Standard ICE fares are sold. Accommodation is very nice in standard and higher still in first!

Tickets for IC/ICE trains are IME are endorsed "mit IC/ICE"

 

[tbtc]

Oh so it's fine for London Midland Euston services to have cheaper prices over the Virgin prices because they are slower, inferior trains. However, when I suggest that for Northern you jump to the conclusion it's only because I hate Pacers not because I'm suggesting something that's common practice across Europe and works well across different modes of transport including bus, ferry, coach, train and plane!

I've no problem with TOCs offering cheaper fares for slower routes (i.e. going from London to Birmingham via Northampton), but how does that affect your examples like Delamere-Manchester where there's no competition?

Your initial post talked about "operators using Pacers and Sprinters on the same route" - the many lines where the same stopping pattern is observed by different types of stock. That's very different to the difference between London and Birmingham (where one TOC takes around an hour longer than the other).

The fact that your next post was about "destroying Pacers" suggests how constructive this thread is.

But if you were being serious then where are you going to draw the line when you are arguing about the number of fold down tables on stock, the number of routes that have different traction (e.g. how many different fares would you want between Manchester and Stockport?)?

 

[455driver]

What about trains which have coaches with some table seats and some airline seats?
Will the table seats be 2nd class and the airline seats 3rd class?

What happens if I have a 2nd class ticket but all the table seats are taken?
Do I get a refund?
What happens if halfway through the journey a seat at a table becomes available? Do I get a partial refund for the part of the route I was in a 3rd class seat?

What happens if I have a 3rd class ticket but the only seat available is at a table/ Will I be fined for sitting in the wrong class of accommodation?

What happens if I have a 3rd class ticket but all the seats are taken so I have to stand? DO I get a partial refund?

Should we have a standing only 4th class ticket as well, this would suit stations closer to the major cities where the commuters are less likely to get a seat?

Who is going to Police all this?
What is the problem with catching a train from where you are to where you want to be?
Why does every simple thing have to be made complicated?
What is the net gain for the passenger?
What is the net gain for the TOC?

Most of these questions have probably already been asked!

 

[cjmillsnun]

The last thing we want is third class. I can just imagine an uncovered goods truck behind a pacer... Actually that may be more comfortable

 

[chris89]

Oh so it's fine for London Midland Euston services to have cheaper prices over the Virgin prices because they are slower, inferior trains. However, when I suggest that for Northern you jump to the conclusion it's only because I hate Pacers not because I'm suggesting something that's common practice across Europe and works well across different modes of transport including bus, ferry, coach, train and plane!

Whats wrong with LM having cheaper services? It takes longer and is a complete stopper services.

Also how some go on hear about the Class 390s and 221s(Although to short on Euston Services, especially from Glasgow Central or Edinburgh Waverley) i thought the 350s would be loved.

What works in other countries, does not mean it will work here either.

 

[northwichcat]

I've no problem with TOCs offering cheaper fares for slower routes (i.e. going from London to Birmingham via Northampton), but how does that affect your examples like Delamere-Manchester where there's no competition?

Northern offer cheap Route:Altrincham Manchester-Chester fares but if you travel half the line e.g. Knutsford-Chester (where there's no competition) you're paying almost as much as travelling the whole line Manchester-Knutsford-Chester (where there is competition.)

Do LM charge the same type of fare for Hemel Hempstead to Euston (no competition) as for Milton Keynes to Euston (where they compete with Virgin.)

The fact that your next post was about "destroying Pacers" suggests how constructive this thread is.

I said that would make things easier but it would be an expensive option. At some stage Pacers will have to be destroyed.

Whats wrong with LM having cheaper services? It takes longer and is a complete stopper services.

I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with it.

 

[60008]

I always thought Third class was abolished when BR took over from the "big four" but I think it made a come back in 1985 in the form of "Pacers" . Personally I like them because you can see out of the windows more easily even they are a bit on the bouncy side .

 

[ed1971]

Same here. Apparently, the German Pacer equivalent, the 'Uerdingen Railbus' was 'much loved by passengers'!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uerdingen_railbus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cX0GxJoKaE

 

[60008]

Ah the VT98 "Schienenbus" . I still have my old Trix model somewhere.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am interested to see how the poll on this thread, after a fair number of entries, is now beginning to show a certain percentage split.