Which Way is Up?

[Diplodicus]

I suspect this beeb asked before but here goes ...

Up is towards London but what is the principle for lines that neither start nor finish in London (e.g. Southampton to Salisbury)?

 

[Qwerty133]

the opposite way to down

 

[ExRes]

Unless you're on a route that changes from up to down, or down to up of course .....

 

[Searle]

Pretty sure it's towards the principle town on the route, which is the rule. Obviously there will be exceptions, as there always are.

 

[IanXC]

Up is often towards the constructing railway company's headquarters too.

 

[DownSouth]

Pretty sure it's towards the principle town on the route, which is the rule. Obviously there will be exceptions, as there always are.

For a non-London line, the general rule would be to consider which direction was towards the headquarters of the company which built the line.

Nations with a less centralised rail network tend to use some variation of east/west and north/south directions for national lines, with up/down (or the local version of it) used for metro lines only.

 

[andyb2706]

Can be a bit tricky. A good example is Manchester Victoria as which ever direction you approach Manchester Victoria, either from the West or East you are travelling on the Up Lines.

 

[G0ORC]

Up is often towards the constructing railway company's headquarters too.

Indeed.

Derby - London though was obviously Up but Derby - Birmingham is down following the Constructing Company "Rule"

 

[user15681]

Unless you're on a route that changes from up to down, or down to up of course .....

Some of them are hard to get the head round at first. There are numerous changes around Slade Green/Crayford areas. At Ramsgate station the up turns into the down and vice versa in the platforms and just outside Dover, the down turns into the up and vice versa. The mileages also change at the same location, which only makes it more confusing!

 

[duesselmartin]

but generally when the mile/km number increase, one is on the down line?

 

[A-driver]

but generally when the mile/km number increase, one is on the down line?

That is a bit chicken & egg though. The miles will increase in the down direction. But only because it's the down direction.

As for routes which change and round routes etc, it normally involves different lines anyway. So a route like the old south London line from Victoria to London bridge is several lines rule by a single train, not a single line as both directions go to London. So on a south London from vic to London bridge you would run on:
Down Brighton slow
Down Atlantic (as far as the junction at Peckham...can anyone remind me of the name as I can't remember and it's driving me mad as I used to sign it! Keep thinking Voltaire road but that is the one at clapham high street!)
Up south London

At a guess something like Manchester Victoria is served by different lines each side so they can both run up to Manchester.

 

[user15681]

That is a bit chicken & egg though. The miles will increase in the down direction. But only because it's the down direction.

As for routes which change and round routes etc, it normally involves different lines anyway. So a route like the old south London line from Victoria to London bridge is several lines rule by a single train, not a single line as both directions go to London. So on a south London from vic to London bridge you would run on:
Down Brighton slow
Down Atlantic (as far as the junction at Peckham...can anyone remind me of the name as I can't remember and it's driving me mad as I used to sign it! Keep thinking Voltaire road but that is the one at clapham high street!)
Up south London

At a guess something like Manchester Victoria is served by different lines each side so they can both run up to Manchester.

Crofton Road Junction or Peckham Rye Junction?

 

[A-driver]

Crofton Road Junction or Peckham Rye Junction?

Thanks, crofton road rings a bell? The junction where the south London becomes the Portsmouth (main aspect) and the Atlantic line begins.

 

[user15681]

Thanks, crofton road rings a bell? The junction where the south London becomes the Portsmouth (main aspect) and the Atlantic line begins.

Ah, Peckham Rye Junction is where the South London becomes the Portsmouth and the Atlantic begins. Crofton Road junction is just past that in the up direction and is the crossover from the Atlantic lines to the Catford Loop.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Just a bit of trivia but the Borders Railway plans use the original Up and Down directions despite only going to Edinburgh. Maybe NR/the contractors are pretty confident the original direction to London will be useful one day?

 

[swt_passenger]

With something like Southampton to Salisbury, you can sometimes look at it logically as part of a long loop, so going away from Waterloo as far as Basingstoke it is obviously down direction to Salisbury. But if you then look at Basingstoke to Salisbury via Southampton as a long loop, then it is logically all down towards Salisbury and up towards Southampton.

 

[snowball]

but generally when the mile/km number increase, one is on the down line?

Liverpool to Manchester is an exception to that. Milepost numbers increase towards Manchester even though it's the up direction.

In fact, two exceptions. Both via Chat Moss and via Warrington!

 

[A-driver]

Ah, Peckham Rye Junction is where the South London becomes the Portsmouth and the Atlantic begins. Crofton Road junction is just past that in the up direction and is the crossover from the Atlantic lines to the Catford Loop.

Many thanks, it's all coming screaming back to me now!

 

[edwin_m]

Liverpool to Manchester is an exception to that. Milepost numbers increase towards Manchester even though it's the up direction.

In fact, two exceptions. Both via Chat Moss and via Warrington!

The line out of Marylebone is another one. According to Quail the first milepost is be 205 3/4, measured from Manchester London Road, but Up is towards Marylebone.

Obviously changes of designation for the same direction of travel have to happen, including one at any triangular junction. Generally however I think Up and Down on non-London lines was chosen is to minimise the number of changes of designation of the most important traffic flows (at the time the designation was made, which of course may not apply today).

Using the example of Derby-Birmingham-Bristol, yes this requires a change of designation at Derby (though it may not have when built, since the original London line left Derby northwards). But it means that there was no further change at any of the principal intersections of New Street, Gloucester, Standish or Temple Meads. I believe the parallel GW and Midland lines between Gloucester and Cheltenham had opposite designations for the same direction of travel.

Borders Railway fits with this too, since trains going towards Tweedbank will leave Waverley as up trains. And there's a discussion somewhere on here about how Bletchley-Oxford designations have been reversed for the reopening work in progress, which lines up at Oxford, Calvert and Bletchley though not at Bicester.

 

[Howardh]

If there was a station at the North Pole......



I'll get my coat.

 

[merlodlliw]

All stations Crewe to Holyhead are Down,

It goes back to Mail Coaches, up to London,down from London,this all started in Bristol so I am led to understand.

 

[Legzr1]

but generally when the mile/km number increase, one is on the down line?

Aren't the mileposts normally located on the down line only?

 

[Railsigns]

The same myths get trotted out every time this topic comes up:

"Up direction is always towards London or other principal town."

"Milepost mileages always increase in the Down direction."

"Mileposts are always placed on the Down side of the line."

There are numerous exceptions to all of these. The only way to be sure which direction is "Up" is to consult the current Sectional Appendix or signalling plans, etc.

 

[Class172]

Travelling around the Snow Hill lines results in a change of direction mid-way. I think it is at Stourbridge North Jct, resulting from the former situation where the OW&WR continued northwards whilst the line from Snow Hill diverged off - giving a point where both directions lead up.

 

[edwin_m]

Travelling around the Snow Hill lines results in a change of direction mid-way. I think it is at Stourbridge North Jct, resulting from the former situation where the OW&WR continued northwards whilst the line from Snow Hill diverged off - giving a point where both directions lead up.

According to the Quail map you are correct.

 

[ValleyLines142]

If looking at London to York for example, then it is DOWN to York, and UP to London.

Although of course York is up north and London is down south. If you're going to York for the weekend you say 'I'm going UP to York for the weekend'!

Quite confusing to say the least!

 

[Tio Terry]

In general, Up to London or the principle location.

Creates some interesting situations. It's Up from Yarmouth/Lowestoft to Norwich, but when you get to Thorpe Junction where the lines from London join then Up becomes Down and Down become Up!

Can you imagine the arguments we had with the French when building HS1 on what the principle location was, Paris or London!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Can you imagine the arguments we had with the French when building HS1 on what the principle location was, Paris or London!

Good point, I STILL don't even know if Eurostar is a French or English company!

I would guess London is the principle location, with their main depot being Temple Mills (correct me if I'm wrong?). Therefore that answers my question that ES is British!

 

[A-driver]

I believe it comes mainly from the southern region with the sailors going 'up to London' on the train. This made sense as London is up from the south , ie to the north. I believe that this spread to other regions which is why with lines north of London you still go up to the south.

Obviously most Londoners would say they are going 'up north' and northerners talk of those folk 'down south'.

Of course like anything railway, there are many exceptions to break this rule but as a general principle you can say that London is up.

 

[Tio Terry]

Good point, I STILL don't even know if Eurostar is a French or English company!

I would guess London is the principle location, with their main depot being Temple Mills (correct me if I'm wrong?). Therefore that answers my question that ES is British!

The direction of travel reverses when you leave Eurotunnel!